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Old 12-10-2001, 05:48 PM   #1
JohannesD
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Thumbs down Christianty & Aikido....

Hi there...

I want ppls opinion about christianty and Aikido..

I started this thread before summer holiday and now i decide to resume it..

Aikido is a bit Shinto religion i think.. Im not so very in into this subject soo plz fill me in with all your u know...
I like to learn from other..
U should be wondering at my young age of 16..

I have this view(correct me if im wrong) that christianty has influensed Imperialism(i then mean multi million corporations that dun give a f**k about our inviorment).. It started way back if im not wrong.. At the 16th century..



Well i first want to appologise about my bad English... But i still think its good for being only 16 and living in Sweden...


Well i expect this thread to be as hot as the old 1.... =) if u remeber it..

Follow your instinct..
Always trust it...
//Johannes Davidsson
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Old 12-10-2001, 06:12 PM   #2
mj
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The influence goes back at least to the times of the 'Crusades'.
Long before the 16th century.

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Old 12-10-2001, 08:37 PM   #3
Edward
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Aikido has no religion. Aikido shares some values with Shinto, Buddhism and Christianity, that's all. Osensei's beliefs definitely influenced his Aikido, but these beliefs are universal, and not the trade mark of only one religion. So for the sake of Aikido, leave it out of religion.
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Old 12-10-2001, 08:59 PM   #4
ranZ
 
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this question again..

I agree with Edward, lets just leave religion out of aikido.

This topic has been asked many many times, maybe you'd want to read the thread at e-budo.com
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...&threadid=8689
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Old 12-10-2001, 09:17 PM   #5
otto
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Thumbs down Aikido and Religion

I don't think in Aikido as a Religion itself....but in fact believe it is a suplement for many Religions...because it's encourages the practice of many principles stressed by many of the religious streams....

the first one to come to my mind...is the pacific resolution of conflict..

Excuse my bad English too...

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 12-11-2001, 10:14 AM   #6
akiy
 
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Please see:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=&threadid=487

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Old 12-11-2001, 02:51 PM   #7
JohannesD
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Well keep it upp....

Thx for these replies keep up the good work with this forum.. Make it hot...
And yes i just read in a book that i was at the crusade..

And i think that Aikido shouldnt be mixed with religion...

Keep it up...

The man himself

Follow your instinct..
Always trust it...
//Johannes Davidsson
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Old 12-11-2001, 02:54 PM   #8
JohannesD
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Ki Symbol Thats me...

I started the The last thread about christianity and aikido... But i whont make te same misstake again..
Many angry mails went into my mailbox that week.... =)

Follow your instinct..
Always trust it...
//Johannes Davidsson
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Old 12-18-2001, 09:18 AM   #9
Jason483
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Hello everyone. I've been a Christian for about 7 years now, and I have learned a great deal. First off, our God is a very forgiving God. He will not condemn you for practicing Aikido and trying to better yourself. That is what Aikido does, it makes your body and your spirit stronger. I have also red about Christians controversy in bowing to O-Sensei. The way that I see it is like this: If you bow to him in worship then you are committing a sin, yet if you bow to him in respect then you are not. I know that I believe in God and I have faith that he exists. That is all that matters. God knows all of your thoughts before you do, so if you don't mean to offend him, he already knows that and he already forgives you. I am no saint myself, but I figured I would give my insight. Jason Palmer.
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Old 12-18-2001, 10:55 AM   #10
davem
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*lights and sirens flash*
Sir, please step away from the car, I am going to have to place you under arrest, too many three letter words were used.

I'm curious why you stated your point like this:

"First off, our God is a very forgiving God. He will not condemn you for practicing Aikido and trying to better yourself."

Call me crazy, but that seems to be a short sighted statement that could be construed to inferring that for christians, the practice of aikido is sinful. That is all I will comment on, I don't need to start the next crusade right here on Jun's board.

Dave Mata
http://www.convextion.com
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Old 12-18-2001, 11:21 AM   #11
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol

Hi all,

I think Aikido, though it can be a supplement to many religions, should not be limited to the scope of Christianity or any other religion.

One example is where many religions preach of a juxtaposition between what is perceived as good as against what is perceived as evil.

In the case of Aikido, O-Sensei taught:"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter."

If one is constantly taught that there is a "fight" between good and evil, the average person will undoubtedly become polarised to a particular side after a while.

In Aikido we are told to blend with either force to restore harmony. In the Aikido sense, there is ultimately NO FIGHT.

Actually, it's scary how religion may perceive things like Aikido sometimes, I remember being told by an elderly and very devout Christian that the Yin Yang was a symbol of evil. Another one said that Aikido was evil because it involved mind control.
I have no idea who feeds them this junk.

It's sad, really.

"Instead of being against evil, be for love."
-Mother Theresa

IMHO Love is what Aiki is all about, end of story.

My 2 cents.
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-18-2001, 11:40 AM   #12
abarnhar
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Just a quote...

I believe that this was posted on the main page a few days ago... but it really spoke to this topic for me.

With a mighty roar,
The encompassing love of the lord
Gives birth to the great Universe.
His holy works thus come into being.
(Morihei Ueshiba)

Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or what?

I think Aikido is inclusive of all religion rather than exclusive from all of them.
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Old 12-18-2001, 11:41 AM   #13
Edward
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Aikido has strong phylosophical content, and so do all martial arts, though to a lesser extent. That's all. Religion has nothing to do with Aikido.

However, some teachers who are deeply involved in buddhism try to introduce it through Aikido to their students, and include buddhist prayor and rites to Aikido practice. I do respect all religions, and I have a special affection for buddhism, but I wouldn't study under such teachers, simply because this is unorthodox practice, and because this is not what I want.

Those who want to study Aiki-buddhism (copywrite 2001-Edward Karaa ) of course are free to do it, and those practicing Christians who don't want to get involved in other religions, should look for any regular dojo, which are fortunately still the majority.
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Old 12-18-2001, 11:46 AM   #14
Edward
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A true story:

A person of muslim belief came once to our dojo to watch the practice. Later he asked the Sensei regarding the Zarei to the Kamiza and Osensei whether we were worshipping the pictures or not. Sensei explained that it was paying respects in the Japanese way, and even though it is similar to the Muslim prayor position, it has a different meaning. I do not know if this person was convinced or not, but anyhow, he decided not to join the dojo.
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Old 12-18-2001, 05:45 PM   #15
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Aikido has strong phylosophical content, and so do all martial arts, though to a lesser extent. That's all. Religion has nothing to do with Aikido.
If you went to train at Iwama after the war you'd have had to sit with Morihei Ueshiba in the morning while he prayed and chanted for some 40 minutes before practice began. The guardian dieties of Aikido are enshrined there - there actually was a shrine (to Hachiman, IIRC) at the front of Aikikai Hombu until it was removed because they thought it might cause some problems. M. Ueshiba almost always talked about his Aikido in terms of religion and Shinto.

Of course, people went their various ways after he died, but religion was intimate to the creation of Aikido, and intimate to the outlook of Morihei Ueshiba.

Morihei Ueshiba didn't require his students to believe as he believed, but then that's fairly typical of the Japanese outlook on religion, which tends to be fairly open. On the other hand, I don't think that it would be hard to argue that some study of M. Ueshiba's religious beliefs is necessary if you want to understand anything about the way that he thought.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-18-2001, 08:59 PM   #16
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


If you went to train at Iwama after the war you'd have had to sit with Morihei Ueshiba in the morning while he prayed and chanted for some 40 minutes before practice began. The guardian dieties of Aikido are enshrined there - there actually was a shrine (to Hachiman, IIRC) at the front of Aikikai Hombu until it was removed because they thought it might cause some problems. M. Ueshiba almost always talked about his Aikido in terms of religion and Shinto.

Of course, people went their various ways after he died, but religion was intimate to the creation of Aikido, and intimate to the outlook of Morihei Ueshiba.

Morihei Ueshiba didn't require his students to believe as he believed, but then that's fairly typical of the Japanese outlook on religion, which tends to be fairly open. On the other hand, I don't think that it would be hard to argue that some study of M. Ueshiba's religious beliefs is necessary if you want to understand anything about the way that he thought.

Best,

Chris
I would say that you could respect what Jesus Christ said and agree with his without becoming a Christian, and the Buddha said similar things (500 years before), so if you're a Christian, it would be hypocrite from you not to aknowledge this fact. You don't have to worship the Buddha neither. You can also admire Plato's very religious philosophy without becoming a paganist. Religion is about unconditional belief. But we are talking about philosophical concepts.

Osensei reached his enlightment through religion, and Aikido obviously was a result of this enlightment. But as you said, students came to learn Aikido not to become soufis, and what Osensei did as rituals was his very own business.
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Old 12-19-2001, 07:15 AM   #17
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
A true story:

A person of muslim belief came once to our dojo to watch the practice. Later he asked the Sensei regarding the Zarei to the Kamiza and Osensei whether we were worshipping the pictures or not. Sensei explained that it was paying respects in the Japanese way, and even though it is similar to the Muslim prayor position, it has a different meaning. I do not know if this person was convinced or not, but anyhow, he decided not to join the dojo.
You say "A true story:" as if there were something strange about this. I dont know much about Islam, but I had a very interesting conversation about this issue with a Muslim martial artist a few years ago.

Devout believers of all religions may have problems with the 'spiritual' aspects, or the rituals associated with practicing aikido, but for Muslims there is a particular problem with bowing that people of other religions dont share.

The way many Muslims (and their Mullah's) interpret the Koran it is forbidden for a Muslim to bow down before anyone, or anything, except in the act of worshipping God.

For the person who visited your dojo, its possible that the reason for the bow, the fact that its a gesture of respect rather than an act of worship, etc, was totally irrelevant, because what is forbidden is the physical act of bowing down for any purpose other than worshipping God.

I'd emphasise that such Muslims dont have a problem with showing respect; handshakes, salutes, verbal expressions of respect (or indeed any gesture other than a bow similar to the way they bow in prayer) are no problem. But for them, bowing (anything from a nod of the head to zarei) to anyone other than God is specifically forbidden in the Koran.

My 0.02 on this is that, yes, a sensei is within his/her rights to show a person who is unable/unwilling to bow the door. BUT that such a sensei would be showing a serious lack of imagination to do so. It shouldn't be beyond the combined wit of the teacher and the student to come up with some other gesture to use instead of a rei.

Sean
x
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Old 12-19-2001, 11:43 AM   #18
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup


You say "A true story:" as if there were something strange about this. I dont know much about Islam, but I had a very interesting conversation about this issue with a Muslim martial artist a few years ago.

Devout believers of all religions may have problems with the 'spiritual' aspects, or the rituals associated with practicing aikido, but for Muslims there is a particular problem with bowing that people of other religions dont share.

The way many Muslims (and their Mullah's) interpret the Koran it is forbidden for a Muslim to bow down before anyone, or anything, except in the act of worshipping God.

For the person who visited your dojo, its possible that the reason for the bow, the fact that its a gesture of respect rather than an act of worship, etc, was totally irrelevant, because what is forbidden is the physical act of bowing down for any purpose other than worshipping God.

I'd emphasise that such Muslims dont have a problem with showing respect; handshakes, salutes, verbal expressions of respect (or indeed any gesture other than a bow similar to the way they bow in prayer) are no problem. But for them, bowing (anything from a nod of the head to zarei) to anyone other than God is specifically forbidden in the Koran.

My 0.02 on this is that, yes, a sensei is within his/her rights to show a person who is unable/unwilling to bow the door. BUT that such a sensei would be showing a serious lack of imagination to do so. It shouldn't be beyond the combined wit of the teacher and the student to come up with some other gesture to use instead of a rei.

Sean
x
First, no body showed this person the door. He found it by himself (Maybe he found Aikido too soft and went to find a stronger MA?).

Second, we have Muslim members in our dojo who have no problem in bowing to the Kamiza, Osensei, the Sensei, or other fellow Aikidokas. They have the highest ethics among all dojo members.

Third, I will suggest to my sensei to introduce handshakes as a substitute to bowing. The problem is, how can I shake hands with Osensei's picture. Maybe you have some suggestions.

Fourth, I pity very much the narrow-minded and I would tell them that Aikido is not for them. Such mentality lead to the Inquisition in the Catholic Church and also to September 11 attacks. If you are not open-minded enough to tolerate and appreciate other people's cultures, no body is forcing you to learn their arts, whether martial or not. Moreover, no need to learn their language, history...etc. You can stay home and do your own thing.

Fifth, do not try to interprete other people's actions, especially if you don't know what you're talking about, and you admit it. Aikido and other MA exist in so many muslim countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and others. They all use bowing without any problem. I have never heard an issue about that.


Last edited by Edward : 12-19-2001 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-19-2001, 12:19 PM   #19
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Fourth, I pity very much the narrow-minded and I would tell them that Aikido is not for them. Such mentality lead to the Inquisition in the Catholic Church and also to September 11 attacks.
Are you really comparing a person who does not wish to bow to O-sensei's picture to what happened on September 11th? Talk about extreme.
Quote:
If you are not open-minded enough to tolerate and appreciate other people's cultures, no body is forcing you to learn their arts, whether martial or not.
Pot. Kettle. Black.

Just because someone refuses to bow doesn't make their aikido any worse.
Quote:
Aikido and other MA exist in so many muslim countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and others. They all use bowing without any problem. I have never heard an issue about that.
"All"?
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Old 12-19-2001, 12:25 PM   #20
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
[b]
Are you really comparing a person who does not wish to bow to O-sensei's picture to what happened on September 11th? Talk about extreme.
[b]
Pot. Kettle. Black.

Just because someone refuses to bow doesn't make their aikido any worse.

"All"?
We are talking about a hypothetical situation. No one refused to bow to the picture of Osensei to my knowledge. Not in my nor deepsoup's posts.

Second, don't you have anything better to do?
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Old 12-19-2001, 02:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


We are talking about a hypothetical situation. No one refused to bow to the picture of Osensei to my knowledge. Not in my nor deepsoup's posts.

Second, don't you have anything better to do?
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Old 12-19-2001, 04:05 PM   #22
Jonathan
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Man, there is alot of baloney about Christianity being presented here as fact. May I suggest that those of you who have some negative comment to make about Christianity do so from a better informed basis? Anyone who has read the Bible thoroughly and truly understands the tenets of Christ's teachings would not hold to the notion that the contents of the Bible produced or support such things as Imperialism, the Inquisition, or the Crusades. These things arose mainly out of Roman Catholicism and its political agenda, not biblical christianity. (Believe it or not, Roman Catholicism and the Bible differ widely on many points of doctrine).

As to the matter of bowing, the Bible commands Christians not to "bow down nor serve any graven image or likeness of anything" (see the Ten Commandments). It's interesting that there is a distinction made between bowing and serving and that BOTH are condemned.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 12-19-2001, 05:50 PM   #23
Chris Li
 
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-`iginally posted by Edward [/i]

Second, we have Muslim members in our dojo who have no problem in bowing to the Kamiza, Osensei, the Sensei, or other fellow Aikidokas. They have the highest ethics among all dojo members.
[/quote]

Well, because SOME Muslims don't have a problem with the bow, it doesn't therefore follow that ALL Muslims ought not to have a problem.

Quote:

Third, I will suggest to my sensei to introduce handshakes as a substitute to bowing. The problem is, how can I shake hands with Osensei's picture. Maybe you have some suggestions.
I had a student who was an orthodox Jew and felt that he couldn't bow. He just didn't bow and there was no problem at all. I actually asked my instructor at the time (Mitsugi Saotome) about it and he just looked at me like I was stupid and said "If you don't want to bow then don't bow" .

Quote:

Fourth, I pity very much the narrow-minded and I would tell them that Aikido is not for them. Such mentality lead to the Inquisition in the Catholic Church and also to September 11 attacks. If you are not open-minded enough to tolerate and appreciate other people's cultures, no body is forcing you to learn their arts, whether martial or not. Moreover, no need to learn their language, history...etc. You can stay home and do your own thing.
Hmm, they're narrow minded because they don't agree with your interpretation of the gesture, but you're not - even though you don't agree with or tolerate their interpretation of their own religion? After all, they're not building car bombs, they just don't want to avoid a gesture that they feel violates their religious beliefs - a gesture which, I might add, had very little to do with actual Aikido training at all.

Quote:

Fifth, do not try to interprete other people's actions, especially if you don't know what you're talking about, and you admit it. Aikido and other MA exist in so many muslim countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and others. They all use bowing without any problem. I have never heard an issue about that.
Again, because SOME Muslims have no problem with bowing it doesn't mean that ALL Muslims will interpret their faith in the same way. Many Muslims believe that a Muslim is not allowed to bow before anybody or anything except Allah. And yes, I've run into them in the martial arts from time to time.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-19-2001, 06:27 PM   #24
guest1234
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OK, so there are Christians, Muslims, and Jews who do not bow due to religious beliefs, and those that do. Maybe we could get a poll next month...

In the meantime, in the spirit of several holidays just recently passed (Ramadan/Eiid, Yom Kippur/Rosh Hossanah, Feast of the Great Pumpkin/Halloween---please all forgive the spelling of an Irish Roman Catholic girl...), and of course one that is coming soon (Christmas):

could we maybe be a bit gentler in our comments on any religion (yours, formerly yours, someone else's)...

or Santa will only leave coal in your sock.
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Old 12-19-2001, 11:20 PM   #25
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
OK, so there are Christians, Muslims, and Jews who do not bow due to religious beliefs, and those that do. Maybe we could get a poll next month...

In the meantime, in the spirit of several holidays just recently passed (Ramadan/Eiid, Yom Kippur/Rosh Hossanah, Feast of the Great Pumpkin/Halloween---please all forgive the spelling of an Irish Roman Catholic girl...), and of course one that is coming soon (Christmas):

could we maybe be a bit gentler in our comments on any religion (yours, formerly yours, someone else's)...

or Santa will only leave coal in your sock.
Thanks Colleen for reminding us of this important point.

I would like to say one more thing. Member's replies make me look as if I am criticizing Islam or Christianity. In our days, fanaticism and extremism is the Issue,and we should try as much as possible to encourage moderateness. I come from Lebanon which is a 50-50 Christian-Muslim land. I must say that 99% of the population is moderate. I have practiced MA in Lebanon and many muslim countries, especially around the Gulf. I assure you there were never any problems about the bowing issue that I was aware of. Maybe there was that I didn't know of, but these are rare cases and definitely do not deserve the extra attention and importance we are giving them. By doing so, we do cause prejudice to other people's religions and do more harm than good.

As for the bowing issue itself, please let me say that we receive Aikido as a package, as transmitted to us by Osensei through his students and their students. We have to pass it on faithfully without alteration, no matter our personal opinion or preferences. Who has the right to say that bowing is not important in Aikido? What about Suwari Waza and Hanmi Handachi, aren't they obsolete nowadays? Shall we cancel them as well? Isn't Seiza painful for most? Once we start to select what we would do and what we won't, there is no limit anymore.

Sincerely,
Edward
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