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Old 02-21-2005, 03:28 AM   #176
PeterR
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

What changed between then and now are the quality and type of the students that entered and stayed in Aikido not the different teaching abilities of Ueshiba M. or his top students.

Generally speaking Aikido now is much more inclusive than arts where serious mixing it up is required. It is possible to train for years and really not prove anything. It is even possible to sit back and justify it with reasonable sounding philosophical underpinnings. This is not a bad thing but you really can not compare the situation where shiai experience was the norm for entry and those who had it set the tone. You also don't hear too much about the people who did not continue the training for very long. Frankly speaking Ueshiba M. trained far more people than the dozen or so names you see on S. Pranin's chart.

By all accounts Ueshiba M. was a horrible teacher but he was inspirational especially in his prime. The top students from that time were inspirational in their own right - you could say that more than technique rubbed off. What many of these same students did (including Ueshiba K.) was codify a teaching methodology and I suspect if you really look closely, all things being equal, were more successful as teachers.

By the way sensei is an honorific as is O'sensei - does not necessarily have any direct correlation with teaching ability.

Last edited by PeterR : 02-21-2005 at 03:39 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:18 AM   #177
Zato Ichi
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
By the way sensei is an honorific as is O'sensei - does not necessarily have any direct correlation with teaching ability.
Also, the kanji used for the "o" in osensei does not mean great.

翁 - okina - venerable old man
翁先生 - osensei - venerable teacher.

Just FYI.

Last edited by Zato Ichi : 02-21-2005 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:51 AM   #178
rob_liberti
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Okay fair enough, but are we forgetting the focus of the naturalness / greatness?

I claim that Michael Jordan and the winners of the UFC concentrate their greatness on winning and do that very well. I also claim that Osensei concentrated his greatness on teaching / transmitting and did that very well.

Of course, any great teacher also needs great students to teach. To be a better student (and I suppose, eventually to be a better teacher), here I am looking for additional insight. What are you guys here for if not the same thing?

Rob
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:18 AM   #179
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
Also, the kanji used for the "o" in osensei does not mean great.

- okina - venerable old man
搶@- osensei - venerable teacher.

Just FYI.
Hello,

A minor point and unconnected with the topic of the thread, but do you have any sources for the above readings. In the biography, Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei-den uC"JcAŐ"`v, written by his son, Aŋgˊ, the character for O Sensei is 搶 and my computer dictionary translates the kana input in this way. Do you have any other sources that are different?

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:21 AM   #180
deepsoup
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, again, my comment was in line with the idea that nikkyo was outlawed and I don't think it's anymore dangerous than most pins and locks.
If you don't mind my joining in the frenzied Shodokan pack attack for a moment (I'm so aggressive I can hardly resist)...

The whole discussion about ki, whether and how you can render nikkyo harmless, etc., is really a side issue to its being removed from shiai. To paraphrase that old chestnut "aikido works, your aikido may not", while you may be able to block nikkyo many shiai competitors have found themselves unable to.

Fairly inexperienced people can take part in shiai, its available to those of about 4-5th kyu upwards generally. And for everyone taking part its a stressful, chaotic business, thats kind of the point. Nikkyo was allowed initially, it was only when it became clear that significant numbers of injuries were resulting from the use of that technique that it was taken out, and, as I understand it, the randori no kata was changed accordingly. (Even though we're all thugs, we don't want anyone to get hurt in our dojos.)

Undoubtedly some (or many) of the people taking part in shiai lack your skills. (Perhaps only temporarily, adrenalin is known to degrade an individual's motor skills, as is lactic acid. I usually finish a session of competitive randori, let alone shiai, feeling as if I'm awash with both.)

Since it was allowed initially, I imagine that Prof. Tomiki probably didn't consider it more dangerous than other techniques from a theoretical viewpoint either. But when empirical evidence contradicts a theory, its the theory that has to change, that in a nutshell is the scientific method.

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 02-21-2005 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:54 AM   #181
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
...The whole discussion about ki, whether and how you can render nikkyo harmless, etc., is really a side issue to its being removed from shiai. To paraphrase that old chestnut "aikido works, your aikido may not", while you may be able to block nikkyo many shiai competitors have found themselves unable to.

Fairly inexperienced people can take part in shiai, its available to those of about 4-5th kyu upwards generally. And for everyone taking part its a stressful, chaotic business, thats kind of the point. [snipsky]
Hi Sean:

Well, I'm not sure you added any new factors. A lot of people do Taiji and enter tournaments for forms competition and what they call "Taiji sparring", etc., and they've never had to bother spending any time with this Qi stuff... and they've even won some medals. What does that tell us? Does it tell us that Qi is not really needed in Taiji or does it tell us the level is so low that those kinds of practitioners don't even notice that it's missing? I.e., we could read your comments in a couple of ways, couldn't we?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:59 PM   #182
PeterR
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Taiiji is enbu not shiai.

There is a world of difference.

By the way Sean the Kotemawashi grip is allowed just not the wrist crank. Just like you are not supposed to bring your weight down on the elbow for wakagatamae in randori. The shift to nasty is so easy.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:00 PM   #183
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Taiiji is enbu not shiai.

There is a world of difference.
I'm not sure that I see what the "world of difference" is. Real Taiji is one of the most legendary martial arts in the world; the power is enormous. I.e., Taiji is not "enbu" (why don't you just use English?), i.e., real Taiji is not just a public demonstration. There are a lot of people who do something they call Taiji, which tends to be a slow-motion choreography/role-playing... that is a demonstration art which has little to do with the real parent art and the power that is a natural component of the parent art. A lot of Aikido is the same way. A lot of karate is the same way. And so on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:09 PM   #184
PeterR
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Ah I thought you were refering to the Enbu demonstrations that Ki Society does.

I use Japanese terms because that's what I know. The vast majority of my training is here - why would I use English for technical terms. You of course use Ki and Kokyu - why is that?

Last edited by PeterR : 02-21-2005 at 08:15 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:27 PM   #185
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Ah I thought you were refering to the Enbu demonstrations that Ki Society does.
What? You said "Taiji is enbu"... nothing about the Ki Society.

Quote:
I use Japanese terms because that's what I know. The vast majority of my training is here - why would I use English for technical terms. You of course use Ki and Kokyu - why is that?
I think everyone reading the list knows what Ki and Kokyu are. "Enbu" is not a term most people encounter, although some people like to use it as a synonym with "kata" (another word most people know). Since this is an English-speaking list, it makes more sense to bear in mind what the majority of people speak, IMO.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:29 PM   #186
rob_liberti
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Mehdi's students don't compete in the Pride or UFC either. I haven't figured out how to quote other threads, but the "BJJ vs Aikido" post #73 supports my thoughts on the idea about 'if it's not in the UFC or Pride it must not be real'.

This doesn't mean that I don't respect the UFC/Pride competitors or their training methods, it just means that I don't think that they or their training methods are the 'end all be all' of martial arts. Thinking that the winners of these competitions support the idea that their training is the best for all students is basically reasoning by affirmation of consequences - which is simply invalid logic.

I'm starting to get the idea that more people are participating in the forums to validate their beliefs rather than to share and learn. Michi should be about complete re-thought rather than just rearranging prejudices without any real thought.

Rob
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:53 PM   #187
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What? You said "Taiji is enbu"... nothing about the Ki Society.
This _is_ an Aikido forum though, right?
Most people here probably figured which "Taiji" was being talked about, even the ki-ignorant YoshiOrcs such as myself.
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:40 PM   #188
wendyrowe
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Re: Competition in Aikido

I've really been enjoying the technical aspect of this discussion.
There are some good points of view and it's interesting to hear different people's takes on the issues.

As for Japanese vs English terminology, I have no problem with Peter Rehse's use of the Japanese. There are a lot of cases where it's hard to pick the right English words to match the concepts -- there are so many shades of meaning and/or so much baggage in the words we pick that I do better when I learn the Japanese name for a move and know that's it.
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:51 PM   #189
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
As for Japanese vs English terminology, I have no problem with Peter Rehse's use of the Japanese.
I don't either. I used to speak it rather well. However, if Peter wants to say "Taiji is for show, not competition", he might as well be clear about it. He's not going to hurt my feelings, by any means. Japanese names of movements and technical terms are, of course, a different subject entirely, for those that missed the interplay.

Mike
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:39 PM   #190
Charles Hill
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Hi,

I may be wrong but I believe Mike is refering to Tai Chi Chuan and Peter is refering to Taigi, the "enbu" competitions in Ki society.

Charles
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Old 02-22-2005, 03:44 AM   #191
mj
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi,

I may be wrong but I believe Mike is refering to Tai Chi Chuan and Peter is refering to Taigi, the "enbu" competitions in Ki society.

Charles
It's probably fairer to say that he is just being deliberately argumentative, Charles.

As to the difference between embu and shia (or even randori) there is indeed a world of difference. That does not mean that they are necessarily seperate though.

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Old 02-22-2005, 04:51 AM   #192
deepsoup
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
By the way Sean the Kotemawashi grip is allowed just not the wrist crank. Just like you are not supposed to bring your weight down on the elbow for wakagatamae in randori. The shift to nasty is so easy.
Perhaps I was using the term 'nikkyo' incorrectly? I was thinking specifically of the 'wrist crank' rather than anything else.

Of course you're right about the 'kotemawashi grip' being allowed, after all we practice it all the time in our most basic drills for randori (by which I mean the kansetsu waza kihon no tsukuri and the hiji mochi no kuzushi).

Now that you mention it, I just realised that I do indeed apply wakigatame, as in the 'old' hiji mochi no kuzushi - the gyakute dori joudan kuzushi, where the initial tegatana was fingers downwards - with a very distinct 'kote mawashi' grip. Could that be considered nikkyo? I must admit it had never occured to me that it could, since there's no intention of applying a wrist lock, its just a mechanism for turning uke's elbow upwards in preparation for the waki gatame. (Good grief that seems long winded, I hope it makes sense.)

On reflection I probably shouldn't have said 'nikkyo' in the first place, I was trying to be helpful and 'translate' it into Aikikai terminology in my reply to what I thought was a genuine enquiry. Apologies if I caused any misunderstanding.

Sean
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Old 02-22-2005, 05:07 AM   #193
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
Apologies if I caused any misunderstanding.
Not to worry - I understood perfectly.

As you know Shodokan only has four grips.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:00 AM   #194
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
As you know Shodokan only has four grips.
chafing, painful, excruciating and please god let go? Runs off quickly...
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:30 AM   #195
mj
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
chafing, painful, excruciating and please god let go? Runs off quickly...
ear-dori, butt clinch, hair-pull and nipple twist. Of course you can use combinations.

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Old 02-22-2005, 07:35 AM   #196
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi,

I may be wrong but I believe Mike is refering to Tai Chi Chuan and Peter is refering to Taigi, the "enbu" competitions in Ki society.
Ah.... that might explain it indeed. The subject I was talking about was Taijiquan and I spelled it Taiji, not "Taigi". Thanks.

Mike
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Old 02-22-2005, 08:15 AM   #197
wendyrowe
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
As you know Shodokan only has four grips.
Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
chafing, painful, excruciating and please god let go? ...
Hey, we use the same techniques!
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Old 02-26-2005, 01:29 PM   #198
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Hey folks,

Just found this article on Aikidojournal - http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=557. It has some interesting (though myopic imho) views on competition in Aikido and it's aspects as a Martial Art etc.

I thought it may add another perspective to the discussion.

What are your thoughts?
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:58 PM   #199
Michael Neal
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Yea, I too found it narrow minded. The argument is the same tired old "Aikido is too dangerous for competition" stuff. The main flaw in this argument is that it does not explain the original question "Why did my Aikido not work against the Judoka or grappler?"
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Old 02-28-2005, 06:28 PM   #200
jss
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Re: Competition in Aikido

When I hear the "Aikido is too dangerous for competition"-argument, I always hear the following discussion in my head:

though guy from karate, judo, boxing, ...:
"Aikido is for weaklings, you don't have competition!"
aikidoka:
"No no no. Aikido is sooo dangerous, that we can't have any competitions. If we did, people would get killed. So we are way thougher than you!"
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