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Old 02-16-2005, 04:21 PM   #101
Chris Birke
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Re: Competition in Aikido

"Twenty years ago i countered a high ranking aikidoka and dumped him on his butt. He kicked me in the face for my trouble and reminded me aikido is a martial art. I was just trying to show him a flaw in his technique - maybe i shouldn't have tried to soften his fall - that's why i was open to the kick."

I think this is a bullshit situation which shows a major flaw "cooperative" training.
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:48 PM   #102
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Chris Birke about an earlier incident in his career wrote:
I think this is a bullshit situation which shows a major flaw "cooperative" training.
At the level most westerners practice, you're probably right that the cooperative practice doesn't garner much useable self-defense or competition skills. However, different dojo's have different approaches and some of them turn out some pretty competitive individuals.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that if substantive (instead of superficial) Ki skills were taught and more scenarios practiced that explored Uke's balance, more Aikidoka would have fairly useable skills. The Ki and Kokyu give a undeniable edge in a confrontation. Even with the smaller mass and frame size of a lot of women, using kokyu correctly can give a demonstrable edge over larger men. If you can't move someone and they can move you, there is a problem.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-16-2005, 08:06 PM   #103
Steven Gubkin
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Re: Competition in Aikido

People do not have to compete with a competitive attitude. If both you and your opponent are each trying to win, but value the training and not who ends up winning, then you have the best of both worlds. You get realistic training without violating the essential philosophy of Aikido.

Also to those people who don't think that self-defense is a big part of Aikido (the kind of people who make arguments like "you shouldn't be in a real fight anyway"), are completely missing the point of Aikido in my opinion. The Philosophy of Aikido is contained in the physical practice of Aikido. It is based on applying the same principles on learns in a fight (blend with attackers, harmonizing rather than meeting force head on, ... etc), and applying these concepts outside a fight. The problem is, if you do not train realistic fights, then the philosophy you base on these farcical fights will not be based in reality. If Uke and Nage always "cooperate" then they will assume this is how the real world works. They will end up thinking that everything is peace and harmony when it isn't.I guess what I am trying to say is that Aikido is about creating harmony out of chaos. Too many schools are not providing any chaos to be harmonized. Its harmonized from the beginning.
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Old 02-16-2005, 08:38 PM   #104
Michael Neal
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
I hate shiai.

I think shiai is pointless and encourages players to, well, play a game. People think about how to score points, not execute proper techniques (Olympic judo, anyone?). The flow of the match is interrupted by the judges, the mind boggling rules. I'll side with the non-believers on this one. That form of competition I can do without.

Randori geiko (full resistance sparring) OTOH is an absolutely a brilliant way to learn what works for you and what doesn't. Whenever I do randori geiko and my opponent gets a good technique on me, I always come up smiling. There is a spontaneity to randori geiko that no other form of training can simulate.
Shiai is not pointless but it is not for everyone. If you do not get too focused on manipulating the rules to win, the experience is the closest to real fighting you can get.

Doing full randori regularly without participating in shiai should be enough to test your skills, However, it is clear in my experience that Judoka who do not participate in shiai tend to be lazy in their randori practice and also do much less of it. This is because there is less motivation to become good at it.
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Old 02-16-2005, 10:11 PM   #105
PeterR
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Michael;

The last time I saw Rob Hori in Shiai he busted his middle finger (I remember well since I was the one who dragged him to the doctor). He still went in for the next round.

I prefer randori over shia for the same reason Rob does and I don't think you can accuse him of being lazy about it - me maybe (I would also scream like a little girl if someone busted my finger and demand an ambulance). However, point taken if you like shiai you will do more randori. For some shiai preparation is a required stimulus.

Last edited by PeterR : 02-16-2005 at 10:13 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-17-2005, 05:34 AM   #106
deepsoup
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Hi Rob.
My take on a couple of your questions:
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
2b - Do competitors hold back help from their classmates in order to win?
Most of the techniques that are successful in shiai are very simple anyway. What is difficult is 'owning' the technique, and developing the timing to the point that you can apply it to a skilled opponent who has no intention of playing along. I think its very unlikely that someone can be shown some 'trick' and immediately make it useful in shiai, because the necessary timing can only come from practice, practice and more practice.
When a person practices a technique, they are inevitably sharing it with their classmates. (Whether they want to share it or not, they're making it available for their classmates to 'steal' the technique.)

To put it another way: If an individual is capable of conceiving of some technique and developing it to the point that it is effective in competitive randori without a lot of practice, and the active collaboration of their peers - I think that individual has probably reached a level where there aren't any more lessons to be learned from competition anyway.

Quote:
2c - Would someone who has had the objective to win and has been successful for several years be willing to completely drop their arm strength (and let arms fall by their weight alone) knowing that they will lose competition after competition in order to break-through to a deeper level of aikido exclusively based on blending and kokyu - and only then start winning again?
I can think of a few very strong individuals who are definitely not willing to soften up in order to learn better aikido. At an international event in Leeds a year or two ago, this led to some extremely unattractive shiai. Ultimately they're just denying themselves the opportunity to learn new stuff - there will always be people who want to show off what they can do more than they want to learn what they can't. I'm sure we've all met them from time to time, regardless of our styles, or our different dojo cultures.

In the framework of a formal competition, the rules are designed to encourage 'aiki' rather than brute force. Under a good referee, brute force is unlikely to be a winning strategy in any case.

You also asked:
Quote:
There was also mention of things that were dropped to make competition safe. Does anyone know what was dropped?
The problem with some techniques in shiai is that people tend to resist, and in the heat of the moment they're not always rational about resisting even when its dangerous for them to do so.

The most obvious one is nikkyo. People resisting a strong nikkyo tended to get their wrist broken before they realised resisting was a bad idea, so its no longer allowed at all in shiai.
Mae otoshi is allowed only up to the point of kuzushi - beyond a certain point there's a danger that a person resisting the technique will damage their elbow.

Some other techniques need to be done in a certain way, for example shihonage is perfectly safe as long as 'uke's' arm is close to their body (ie: their elbow is pointing up, their hand ideally is right in between their shoulder blades). The kind of shihonage where the arm is open (the kind that calls for a big, scary ukemi) is too dangerous to elbows and shoulders.

Of course we still practice the techniques that aren't allowed in shiai, we just don't do them in shiai. The same is true for people who practice the martial art of judo, if not for those who practice the olympic sport of judo, if you see what I mean.

Sean
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Old 02-17-2005, 06:05 AM   #107
Amir Krause
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Of course we still practice the techniques that aren't allowed in shiai, we just don't do them in shiai.
Don't you find keeping both types of practice disturb you in shiai. If I understand correctly, this is the process that happened in Judo. The competitors came to understand that they will perform better in competition, if they limit their knowledge only to "competition permissible" techniques.


Amir
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Old 02-17-2005, 06:50 AM   #108
Michael Neal
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Michael;

The last time I saw Rob Hori in Shiai he busted his middle finger (I remember well since I was the one who dragged him to the doctor). He still went in for the next round.

I prefer randori over shia for the same reason Rob does and I don't think you can accuse him of being lazy about it - me maybe (I would also scream like a little girl if someone busted my finger and demand an ambulance). However, point taken if you like shiai you will do more randori. For some shiai preparation is a required stimulus.
I think you misunderstood me, I was not calling him lazy, I have no idea how he practices, I was just noting my observations of my Judo class between competitors and non-competitors.

Quote:
Don't you find keeping both types of practice disturb you in shiai. If I understand correctly, this is the process that happened in Judo. The competitors came to understand that they will perform better in competition, if they limit their knowledge only to "competition permissible" techniques.
True, but "competition permissible" techniques are more than adequate for self-defense. In fact my entire point is that "competition permissible" techniques are more effective than more dangerous techniques simple due to the fact that they can be trained harder and more realistically.

Competition techniques in Judo include very forceful throws, dislocation techniques, and chokes, any of which are perfectly capable on their own or used in combination to disabling an attacker. Especially since these techniques are constantly practiced on fully resisting people.

"Sport" judo really is not as watered down as some people think.

Judo has Kata that inludes many of the same techniques as Aikido, these techniques are useful to learn but since they are practiced in a much more controlled manner I am positive I would be less prepared to use them in a real life encounter, even if I practiced them daily.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 02-17-2005 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 02-17-2005, 07:04 AM   #109
happysod
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
True, but "competition permissible" techniques are more than adequate for self-defense
from what I know of the differences, agree with you here
Quote:
In fact my entire point is that "competition permissible" techniques are more effective than more dangerous techniques simple due to the fact that they can be trained harder and more realistically.
While I understand your reasoning, I can't fully agree here. Harking back to the judo example, my understanding was that Kano had already removed those techniques which he deemed too hard to practice. However, later generations removed yet more until the grumble about judo's street(tm) effectiveness reared their head and less favoured techniques were "rediscovered".

I think there is an argument for keeping the entire breadth of techniques, just some may need more training at lower speeds before they're introduced into your randori. In my own ki-style, we had effectively lost sumio-toshi for a while - thankfully it's back (via a strange route I admit) following it's masterful demonstration by a sensei from another style.
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Old 02-17-2005, 07:19 AM   #110
Michael Neal
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Ian, I am all for keeping the entire breadth of techniques too. However these so called "lost" techniques are really few in number and do not really take much away from the effectiveness of Judo if not practiced.

"Sport" judo is quite effective on its own without them, for competition and self defense.

I think people should actually be more concerned with how watered down Aikido has become, do you think Aikido is practiced as hard today as was in the beginning? I think Judo and Aikido have taken two opposite roads, Judo has removed some more dangerous techniques in order to practice very hard. Aikido in general has removed training harder in order to practice more dangerous techniques.

It is my opinion that training less dangerous techniques harder is more effective than training more dangereous techniques cooperatively.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 02-17-2005 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:07 AM   #111
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Competition in Aikido

The only quible I would have is in associating 'harder' with competitive. I might agree that the non-competitive nature of today's aikido practice could have an affect on self-defense application. But I also believe that there are many dojo that train very hard indeed. As to whether it is common to train as the early students did...well...no, I honestly don't think that exact opportunity exists today. That kind of training was based very strongly in the uchideshi idea and an earlier japanese sub-culture...a strong core of students who literally lived, ate, and slept in the dojo, with the founder. Even scrubbing his back at night.

Cooperative training in that environment (extremely strong bonds and a high level of trust) is probably as close to the level of competive training we see in judo as you can get. That said, there are contemporary uchideshi programs and intense training programs that simulate (as best as modern times can) that type of environment. Some examples might be the core of students who practiced during extended stays in Iwama, the yoshinkan senshusei program, Chida Sensei's uchideshi program, and I'm sure, many others as well. I have no idea of the actual numbers of aikido students who participate in such programs though.

One other factor to consider...I know of some students who train exceptionally hard even outside of the types of programs mentioned above. The benchmark of that kind of keiko seems to be the level of trust between training partners...and the presense of that trust usually requires a very strong commitment to the dojo and instructor. A level of committment that not all students are willing to make in this day and age.

Best
Ron
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:58 AM   #112
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Sean R. replying to Rob wrote:
I can think of a few very strong individuals who are definitely not willing to soften up in order to learn better aikido. At an international event in Leeds a year or two ago, this led to some extremely unattractive shiai. Ultimately they're just denying themselves the opportunity to learn new stuff - there will always be people who want to show off what they can do more than they want to learn what they can't.
I've worked with some experienced practitioners who, even when it's definitively shown how "soft" works and how powerful it is, cannot change. "Soft" will never work by just softening up and being less tense; it involves some radical changes in the way people move...so it's not just "being willing to soften up", IMO, it's more "being willing to stop what you're doing and radically change your body movement."
Quote:
The problem with some techniques in shiai is that people tend to resist, and in the heat of the moment they're not always rational about resisting even when its dangerous for them to do so.

The most obvious one is nikkyo. People resisting a strong nikkyo tended to get their wrist broken before they realised resisting was a bad idea, so its no longer allowed at all in shiai.
While some of the nikkyo variants can be applied in combat or competition (nikkyo is a joint attack at a certain angle, not a specific application), the standard cross-hand nikkyo is usually pretty hard to apply to a wary opponent. That being said, nikkyo is ineffective against someone with good ki powers, so instead of disallowing nikkyo, I would suggest that it should be the minimum ante.

My 2 Cents.

Mike
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:30 AM   #113
rob_liberti
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Re: Competition in Aikido

I know we are seriously digressing here, but FWIW, I don't see nikyo as a joint "lock" at a certain angle at all anymore. I if I had to describe it in that pattern, it might be more acurately a joint pull-apart at a certain angle. I think I can do it to a grizly bear - even if he has a black sash in Taichi.

Rob
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:03 PM   #114
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I know we are seriously digressing here, but FWIW, I don't see nikyo as a joint "lock" at a certain angle at all anymore. I if I had to describe it in that pattern, it might be more acurately a joint pull-apart at a certain angle. I think I can do it to a grizly bear - even if he has a black sash in Taichi.
Well, I don't know if talking about techniques is a digression, really, because I think there is some confusion about what "Aikido Techniques" are in some of the previous posts. For instance, some dojo's practice and use atemi as part of what they consider bona fide Aikido; some dojo's completely abjure the use of atemi, considering it coarse and crude. Some people use body checks as part of their Aikido and some people have never heard of doing such a thing. So when there's a discussion about Aikido for competition, I sort of get lost because I realize that various people have assorted ideas of what "bona fide Aikido" really is.

I'll be happy to let you apply nikkyo any time, Rob, and I don't have a black sash in anything. I'm quite serious about what I said... someone with good ki and kokyu skills doesn't need muscle to withstand the application of your standard nikkyo. Of course, while this demonstration is fairly easy to do, I've gotten tired of standing around waiting while people hop around trying diffenent angles in their desperation to hurt me... I now give them plenty of time to apply and then I tend to respond to how off-balance they put themselves in their efforts.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:06 PM   #115
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
That being said, nikkyo is ineffective against someone with good ki powers
Ki powers?

Last time I checked, the fundamentals of sound technique included proper tai sabaki, kuzushi and then kake. Your ki powers become irrelevant when your balance (physical and otherwise) is properly destroyed imho. For one skilled in these things it does not matter what ki power you have if it is not applied in a manner to deter someone who knows exactly how to render that ability useless. Joint locks or as Rob says - joint pull-aparts only work in uncooperative situations when an ample amount of distraction/disruption is applied. This means atemi or kuzushi. Else one puts oneself in position for a beautiful pounding/counter lock/throw by someone who is not planning on cooperating.

Returning to Wynand's initial post. This is why we need some form of uncooperative practice to understand true effectiveness - there are ways of finding out what works and what does not under pressure (and of modifying stuff that doesn't work so it works), but we need to see these things by really testing them with someone who can give sound feedback regarding what is actually going on when a technique is being applied, not someone who is so accustomed complying that he/she would not know effective technique until it literally hit them.

I have trained in schools of Aikido that have been "noted" for their "effective self defence" techniques and again I see some delusion as to what works under resistance. There are some very powerful and dangerous techniques being practiced, but the cooperative method of training does not reveal weaknesses that may appear as a result of trying to use too much fine motor skills to get the technique, transitions that would give a resisting attacker an easy opportunity for a counter, or merely the time that is being taken and the energy wasted to get into some of the positions to get off some of these more powerful techniques.

Assumption can be dangerous. I tend to agree with Michael Neal in this regard when he says - It is my opinion that training less dangerous techniques harder is more effective than training more dangereous techniques cooperatively.

When met with someone who knows as much as you know and who seriously plans to be your antagonist, this is where the wheat and the chaff is separated. This is where one is forced to raise one's level of training to meet with this new level of practice, where the way of harmony truly shines as a way that reconciles energy even in the midst of opposition, by utilising the force of the opposition itself. We can talk about it, but doing it reveals a lot more imho.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:24 PM   #116
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

L. Camejo = A fine purveyor of TRUTH...

Excellent posts in this thread.

Roy Dean
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:45 PM   #117
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Ki powers?
Sure. The same kind that O-Sensei, Tohei, and others demonstrate as basic to their Aikido.
Quote:
Last time I checked, the fundamentals of sound technique included proper tai sabaki, kuzushi and then kake. Your ki powers become irrelevant when your balance (physical and otherwise) is properly destroyed imho. For one skilled in these things it does not matter what ki power you have if it is not applied in a manner to deter someone who knows exactly how to render that ability useless. Joint locks or as Rob says - joint pull-aparts only work in uncooperative situations when an ample amount of distraction/disruption is applied. This means atemi or kuzushi. Else one puts oneself in position for a beautiful pounding/counter lock/throw by someone who is not planning on cooperating.
I don't particularly disagree with you about the application and completion of good Aikido techniques, but I didn't try to complicate what I was talking about... to make a point, I was simply talking about someone taking my proffered wrist and applying nikkyo to it. If you want to introduce footwork and balance-taking to the demonstration, it's a different matter from the simple demonstration I was talking about.... and you seem to be overlooking the possibility that the person doing the tai sabaki, attempted kuzushi, etc., might get knocked on his butt while attempting it, if we want to consider all the possibilities. But you're right in mentioning the difference between a demonstration and what a full-blown technique should involve.
Quote:
Returning to Wynand's initial post. This is why we need some form of uncooperative practice to understand true effectiveness - there are ways of finding out what works and what does not under pressure (and of modifying stuff that doesn't work so it works), but we need to see these things by really testing them with someone who can give sound feedback regarding what is actually going on when a technique is being applied, not someone who is so accustomed complying that he/she would not know effective technique until it literally hit them.
I absolutely agree with you. What my point is that no matter how bully and competitive someone makes their Aikido, understanding and being able to use "Ki power" is an integral part of real Aikido. I've been in a number of dojo's where great physical skill with techniques, balance, etc., were in use, but which I didn't think much of in terms of reflecting the Aikido O-Sensei was trying to teach. O-Sensei, Tohei, and many others didn't use and demonstrate ki-powers as an interesting hobby akin to amateur magic... they considered it an important part of Aikido, I think.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:49 PM   #118
Michael Neal
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
The only quible I would have is in associating 'harder' with competitive. I might agree that the non-competitive nature of today's aikido practice could have an affect on self-defense application. But I also believe that there are many dojo that train very hard indeed
Ron, I don't doubt that there are many Aikidoka that practice very hard, what I meant was the training methods of Judo are harder, as in more full contact and all out sparring. I realize there are exceptions like Shodokan that includes frequent full randori. From what I have seen most Aikido does not do randori at all or if they do it is infrequent and consists of "light to no resistance exercise of body placement, avoidance and technique."

But again I also think too much randori can be detrimental as well, there was a long period of time where we were doing full randori for an hour and a half each class 3 times a week and I noticed my skills digress. There needs to be balance in the training.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 02-17-2005 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 02-17-2005, 12:54 PM   #119
mj
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... If you want to introduce footwork and balance-taking to the demonstration, it's a different matter from the simple demonstration I was talking about.... and you seem to be overlooking the possibility that the person doing the tai sabaki, attempted kuzushi, etc., might get knocked on his butt while attempting it...
Yeah, that's what we are talking about. As a training method. See?

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Old 02-17-2005, 01:07 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
Yeah, that's what we are talking about. As a training method. See?
I thought we were talking about nikkyo not being used in a competition because it was too dangerous; hence my observation. If someone wants to mix it up and see if they can apply nikkyo to me using their movement and balance-taking, I'd be interested to see it.... it might be good training, indeed.

Mike
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Old 02-17-2005, 01:16 PM   #121
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
it might be good training, indeed
It would certainly be fun to watch...

RT

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Old 02-17-2005, 01:31 PM   #122
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sure. The same kind that O-Sensei, Tohei, and others demonstrate as basic to their Aikido.I don't particularly disagree with you about the application and completion of good Aikido techniques, but I didn't try to complicate what I was talking about... to make a point, I was simply talking about someone taking my proffered wrist and applying nikkyo to it. If you want to introduce footwork and balance-taking to the demonstration, it's a different matter from the simple demonstration I was talking about.... and you seem to be overlooking the possibility that the person doing the tai sabaki, attempted kuzushi, etc., might get knocked on his butt while attempting it, if we want to consider all the possibilities. But you're right in mentioning the difference between a demonstration and what a full-blown technique should involve.
And this is exactly my point Mike. When one refers to Aikido technique whether it be kata, demonstration, grading, randori, competition, on the street or in a warzone - one should continuously be referring to something that is martially effective in some form or fashion and not just a bunch of movements that only look effective when someone else is allowing them to look effective and there is in fact no real martial substance. Too often we talk about parlour tricks in Aikido and want to pass them off as legitimate technique. Obviously if you stick your hand out and say "twist my wrist" I would be a fool to try and twist it and expect to succeed if I profess to be doing Aikido. Aikido is not about twisting wrists. What you are describing is playing around.

This is the same sort of mindset that causes delusion and arrogance as regards what constitutes effective training and technique i.e. "If I stick out my wrist and he can't get on a lock obviously his Aikido is a bunch of <insert negative adjective here> and my ki is strong" which is why I love the beginners who simply clock you one instead of trying to grab one's wrist. Was it Ueshiba M. who said "On occasion the voice of peace resounds like thunder, jolting human beings out of their stupor"? That thunder is the fist of the beginner cleaning your clock. That voice is also heard when you hear the echo off the mat after being thrown by kaeshiwaza in randori or in shiai. It is the voice of truth - the truth that we need to train better and harder if we want to get good at being effective.

As far as getting knocked over in the midst of applying kuzushi, this shows how much you really don't understand some of the principles of effective technique that were applied by the same Ueshiba M. and his students since time immemorial. Metsuke, tai sabaki, kuzushi - are all real world manifestations of the same "ki power" you seem to want to mystify. Done properly one does not lose balance, but takes the attacker's balance in the midst of his movement (physical or otherwise). But unless one practices this sort of thing one cannot be expected to understand its applications. It's like a sniper trying to explain the finer aspects of bullet trajectory to someone who is accustomed to playing with a super soaker.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I absolutely agree with you. What my point is that no matter how bully and competitive someone makes their Aikido, understanding and being able to use "Ki power" is an integral part of real Aikido. I've been in a number of dojo's where great physical skill with techniques, balance, etc., were in use, but which I didn't think much of in terms of reflecting the Aikido O-Sensei was trying to teach. O-Sensei, Tohei, and many others didn't use and demonstrate ki-powers as an interesting hobby akin to amateur magic... they considered it an important part of Aikido, I think.
Personally I love Tohei's idea of Ki - If I want to move a can with my Ki I take my hand and move it - the ki in my body moves my arm that moves the can. This story is propagated online somewhere when Tohei was speaking with one of his students. For those who want to make Ki other than something very natural and real in the universe, so be it. As far as the Aikido Ueshiba M. was trying to teach I must ask you - which one? Which Ueshiba M.? The one who cried when Takeda S. applied a wrist lock on him? The one who opened up his own school teaching Daito Ryu / Ueshibaryu Aikijujutsu/Aikibudo? The person who added much more fluid movements to his technique as he grew older? Which one? What he taught always progressed, always changed, but I often think that some are trying to emulate him at the end of the path when he himself had the discipline to walk it first before arriving at the place where some are trying to emulate.

The simple thing is, even though one does not engage in parlour tricks or do specific "ki exercises" to build and understand ki, it does not mean that it is not evident in their technique. We are all trying to walk the path, some do it in different ways, that is cool. But when we get down to specifics like objectively effective technique etc. then we reach a place where certain methods have been tried and proven to be better than others. I am not so sure that competition may be the best way to develop ki sensitivity, but then again I may be wrong.

Roy: Thanks for the comment. Though there was this niggling thought in the back of my brain that thought you were being sarcastic. Either way no worries.

Happy training folks.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 02-17-2005 at 01:35 PM.

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Old 02-17-2005, 01:58 PM   #123
Mike Sigman
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
And this is exactly my point Mike. When one refers to Aikido technique whether it be kata, demonstration, grading, randori, competition, on the street or in a warzone - one should continuously be referring to something that is martially effective in some form or fashion and not just a bunch of movements that only look effective when someone else is allowing them to look effective and there is in fact no real martial substance. Too often we talk about parlour tricks in Aikido and want to pass them off as legitimate technique. Obviously if you stick your hand out and say "twist my wrist" I would be a fool to try and twist it and expect to succeed if I profess to be doing Aikido. Aikido is not about twisting wrists. What you are describing is playing around.

This is the same sort of mindset that causes delusion and arrogance as regards what constitutes effective training and technique i.e. "If I stick out my wrist and he can't get on a lock obviously his Aikido is a bunch of <insert negative adjective here> and my ki is strong" which is why I love the beginners who simply clock you one instead of trying to grab one's wrist.
Hmmmm. What I see here is that we're talking past each other. I understand what you're saying about the application of techniques and, as I said, I'm not gainsaying that at all. What I'm saying is that there are essentially 2 things about Aikido techniques that need to be taken into account in this discussion about competition: ( 1.) correct understanding and application of technique; (2.) the use of real kokyu power, or "ki power", whatever you want to call it. My comment is that "ki power" is a real factor with substantial effect on the outcome of the application of Aikido techniques and that has a place in the discussion about competition and what is allowed, practiced, etc. What seems to be clear is that you don't understand what I'm talking about, so we're in a situation where talking further might be a waste of time.
Quote:
As far as getting knocked over in the midst of applying kuzushi, this shows how much you really don't understand some of the principles of effective technique that were applied by the same Ueshiba M. and his students since time immemorial. Metsuke, tai sabaki, kuzushi - are all real world manifestations of the same "ki power" you seem to want to mystify.
As I said, we appear to be talking past each other. [snip comments appearing to place me in the amateur category of martial arts.]
Quote:
Personally I love Tohei's idea of Ki - If I want to move a can with my Ki I take my hand and move it - the ki in my body moves my arm that moves the can.
Well, then you're missing the point of what Ki actually is. My suggestion is simply that you might find it interesting. Granted, I understand that you've been less than impressed by a lot of the superficial stuff being passed off as Ki, and so have a lot of us. But there's quite obviously a lot about Ki that you don't understand. Keep your mind open.... it's a part of Aikido.

Mike
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:03 PM   #124
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Keep your mind open.... it's a part of Aikido.
It always is - haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Just remember there are other words to describe things in Aikido than the word "ki". It has been a much maligned word and is very subject to interpretation. These are the things I have been describing all along.

Also, the concept of effectively applying technique embodies the "ki" concept as you put it. They are in fact inseparable and a great aspect of effective competitive training. It's just not the phraseology or terminology we choose to use since like many names and words in Aikido it does not always give one a clear definition of what one is referring to.

A far as missing the point about Ki - the example I used were the words of Koichi Tohei, not my own. So I guess you better teach him what ki is in your infinite wisdom.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 02-17-2005 at 02:09 PM.

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Old 02-17-2005, 02:57 PM   #125
mj
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... Well, then you're missing the point of what Ki actually is. My suggestion is simply that you might find it interesting. Granted, I understand that you've been less than impressed by a lot of the superficial stuff being passed off as Ki, and so have a lot of us. But there's quite obviously a lot about Ki that you don't understand. Keep your mind open.... it's a part of Aikido.

Mike
It seems to me, looking over your posts, that you are generally here to promote Ki Aikido as superior to the form of training being discussed in this thread. Surley that should have its own thread.

No-one, it has been repeatedly written, is trying to say that randori is a superior form of training. Only that it has its place. Is the problem that we all see Aikido so personally?

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