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Old 05-02-2005, 01:15 PM   #51
makuchg
 
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Anon,

Aikido is a path to a destination, not the only path, but a viable one none the less. If you find this path doesn't suit you, find one that does (just make sure you are still heading in the right direction). You never know when this new path may cross with Aikido again. You may be surprised at how cyclic this journey can be.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:08 PM   #52
Joost Korpel
 
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Anon,
I quite Aikido practice after 3+ years of study because of family obligations. At the time I remember thinking, "well thats it then, it was a great ride and its time to move on".

Many years later it occurred to me, that I still approach life with an Aikido mindset. Whether its confrontations at work, working with kids as a Scoutmaster, dealing with traffic snarls or trying to be the best parent possible I was always looking for a way to blend lifes ups and downs while maintaining my balance. Its hard to put in exact words, but I had developed a way of thinking and approaching everything I did as a direct result of my Aikido traininig. After 14 years away from the dojo, I realized that I had still been practicing Aikido the whole time, just not on the mat. I'm happy to say I'm back on the mat, this time with my 12 year old son.

The point is, don't be surprised to find years later that you may think you have left Aikido, only to find it never really left you.

Best of Luck in your Budo journey.
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:32 PM   #53
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Hey good for you, I felt the same way after about 2 years of Aikido. I was always doubting how effective Aikido would be because there was not enough in it to actually test your ability like with randori/sparring. I went to Judo and love it. I just won my division at the latest tournament and have no doubts about my ability to apply Judo in a real life encounter.

Although I still have respect for Aikido it just is not for me at this time. But that is not to say that I will not return to Aikido later in life, it is quite possible.

It takes some courage to make a decision and do what is right for yourself sometimes. Even though you may disappoint some people you have become friends with in Aikido.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-02-2005 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:47 PM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Hey! congrats on the win!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:17 AM   #55
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Thanks, It took me long time before I started to win at tournaments, I have seen so many people quit Judo after losing their first few matches. But I am tenacious and stubborn as many of you here already know.
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:04 AM   #56
aikidoc
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Different paths suit different people. If you are younger and like to mix it up Aikido may be too tame for you to "try" yourself. However, when you get older it may be just the right path. Once I discovered it, there was no question it was the right path, even though I had a break in the early years due to obligations. I mentally never left Aikido. I feel it is a path I can train on even when I can no longer get on the mat. It suits me physically and philosophically. I also like to learn and there is a lot to learn.
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:37 PM   #57
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
.... Although I still have respect for Aikido it just is not for me at this time. But that is not to say that I will not return to Aikido later in life, it is quite possible .....
There's nothing stopping you from cross-training in Aikido now, Mike, if you chose to. Certainly you would be in good company, since there seem to be plenty of people in Judo, BJJ, and MMA systems who cross-train.

Furthermore, the idea that Aikido is for "later in life" is a ludicrous myth long in need of debunking. You are not going to find many -- if any -- 115 year old Shihans who started training under O Sensei in the 1950s. Period. Anyone in their 60s or 70s when they started under him would be long dead by now, and as such, not in a position to teach it to other people, which is how you keep the art alive.

The people with ~50 years under their belts started in their late teens or early twenties, and there are plenty of people in those age brackets in the dojos I've been to lately. Yeah, plenty of gray heads around here, but plenty of young'uns, too, who are very serious about pursuing it. And it's not unusual to find dojos offering kids' classes; I had plenty of teenage training partners when I went to a seminar in Cincinnati in February.

You don't want to do Aikido, fine, but don't do it because you think it has an "old codgers only" sign on the door. There is no such animal.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:11 AM   #58
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

No I don't think Aikido is only for old people, but right now I want focus on Judo as that takes enough dedication in itself to be good at it, if I started back with Aikido and split my time, my Judo would suffer.

BTW: I am not looking to become a Shihan anyway. And that is one of the problems I have with Aikido, there is too much idolotry of higher ranks and Aikido legends. There also are alot of "legends in their own minds" as well. You don't have much of that BS in Judo, because you have to put up or shut up in randori and competitions. There is respect for the great competitors but it is not like the worshipping you find in Aikido.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-04-2005 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:54 AM   #59
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
worshipping you find in Aikido
I'd have to say that aikido isn't the only ma guilty of this, I've seen it in some form in most martial arts - even the holy grail of competition, mma has more fan-boys than practitioners with it's own hefty share of "yeah I'm a badass fighter" group of people who last a few weeks training yet have become "the deadly" somehow.

However, I will admit that the rather strange spiritually superior hard cases of aikido are hard to swallow sometimes.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:16 AM   #60
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No I don't think Aikido is only for old people, but right now I want focus on Judo as that takes enough dedication in itself to be good at it, if I started back with Aikido and split my time, my Judo would suffer.

BTW: I am not looking to become a Shihan anyway. And that is one of the problems I have with Aikido, there is too much idolotry of higher ranks and Aikido legends. There also are alot of "legends in their own minds" as well. You don't have much of that BS in Judo, because you have to put up or shut up in randori and competitions. There is respect for the great competitors but it is not like the worshipping you find in Aikido.
I'm sorry you feel that way. i can't quite get at what your saying, because i haven't experienced it very much for myself. if you want to leave aikido, than leave it. judo is very fun, but IMHO has been watered down a bit through the ages, with the exeption of fusen ryu.

p.s. why don't you try tomiki aikido?
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:21 AM   #61
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

I'm glad you've been winning tournaments, and I'm glad you have found an art that suits you.
your enthusiasm looks pretty good from where i stand
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:31 AM   #62
CNYMike
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No I don't think Aikido is only for old people, but right now I want focus on Judo as that takes enough dedication in itself to be good at it, if I started back with Aikido and split my time, my Judo would suffer.
I see, although even then, I think you could get away with Aikido once a week and still do Judo three or four and not have to worry about it. Then again, my knee-jerk response to "Which is better, art A or art B?" is usually "do both," so that's where that's coming from.

Quote:
BTW: I am not looking to become a Shihan anyway ....
I didn't say you were, and I'm not saying you should. I was refuting the Aikido-is-for-old-people argument that it turns out you don't subscitbe to anyway. Point being there are plenty of people who start in their late teens or twenties and get pretty dedicated to it. I'll admit, I have a hunch some of the kids I('ve) train(ed) with also cross-train in things like Kendo and Judo, and God Knows Aikido isn't the only thing I'm doing right now. But I think you get the idea.

Quote:
.... There is respect for the great competitors but it is not like the worshipping you find in Aikido.
I haven't come across anybody worshipping anybody yet, but I'll let you know if I do.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:59 AM   #63
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Burt Masem wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way. i can't quite get at what your saying, because i haven't experienced it very much for myself. if you want to leave aikido, than leave it. judo is very fun, but IMHO has been watered down a bit through the ages, with the exeption of fusen ryu.

p.s. why don't you try tomiki aikido?
I did leave Aikido many years ago. What do you mean about Judo being watered down? Do you think it is ineffective? I can only think af a couple of techniques that have been removed from shiai, but they are often practiced in the katas and friendly randori.

There is no Tomiki Aikido anywhere near where I live, otherwise I would definately try it out.

To be honest it would not be a good idea for me to practice in a non-competitive Aikido dojo because I am afraid of hurting people. If I failed an Aikido technique during practice I would move right into a Judo technique just to keep my flow going and not to get in a habit of stopping when things fail, another bad habit I saw in Aikido by the way. I think alot of Aikidoka are not prepared to take ukemi from many Judo throws and I would also likley piss off the instructor by not using pure Aikido all the time.

If I am going to crosstrain I would need to be able to not limit myself to just the techniques of one art when I was practicing. I would need to practice somewhere that would allow me to be creative in my application of technique in that way. My previous Aikido instructor was very open minded about these things but many of the studetns were not and started whining whenever I strayed from the syllabus, they also were not prepared for hard Judo throws. Thre were nikkyus and Ikkyus that cringed at the thought of taking ukemi from seionage for example.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-04-2005 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:16 PM   #64
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
.... To be honest it would not be a good idea for me to practice in a non-competitive Aikido dojo because I am afraid of hurting people. If I failed an Aikido technique during practice I would move right into a Judo technique just to keep my flow going and not to get in a habit of stopping when things fail .....
Stopping is exaclty what you should do, and it doesn't matter what system it is. One thing I've learned from my exposure to LaCoste/Inosanto Kali's grappling section is things can "fail" for two main reasons: Either you've muffed something in the technique; and/or your training partner is just one of those people who's very hard to throw. Better to stop and let the other person take his or her turn and ask/wait for help than try to force something else, or switch to something other than what you're supposed to be practicing.

Having said that, I have to admit it took a good many years for me to adhere to these rules, and even then, it took a personal crisis a year ago to burn them into my soul, and I came up with them! But if I was in a Judo class, and something wasn't going right, I would ask for help rather than struggle with it.

Quote:
.... I would also likley piss off the instructor by not using pure Aikido all the time.

If I am going to crosstrain I would need to be able to not limit myself to just the techniques of one art when I was practicing ....
Then what's the point of cross-training? I peeked in your profile and saw your interests are "Judo and BJJ." Ever join a BJJ class? Are you there to actually learn BJJ or just do Judo with BJJ guys? There is a difference. While I imagine that in BJJ, you wouldn't get in that much trouble from sticking to Judo as you would in Aikido, you would kind of be missing the point.

It might interest you to know that my Kali instructor explained that he and his Kali instructor, who are also Jun Fan/JKD instructors, have a policy of not letting their students spar right away, and one reason for that is they want people who have experience in other systems to spar using what they're being taught, not what they already know. And I am confindent in saying that in all probability, someone who marched in and didn't make an effort to learn what they're being taught, preferring to default to the system they already know, would get in trouble. I'm pretty sure of it.

So it should be obvious that the point of cross training is to learn other things, not just find a new place to play with what you already know. And if you can't do it, maybe it'd be better for you and any school you have your eye on not to cross train. Ever. Just a thought.
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Old 05-05-2005, 07:30 AM   #65
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

I completely disagree with you, it is bad practice to stop after you failed a technique, it creates a very bad habit. You need to develop your ability to flow from one technique to another without pause. If you have ever done randori you know that many of your techniques will fail and you need to be able to recover from that fast.

BJJ is Judo so there is nothing really different about the training.
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Old 05-05-2005, 08:07 AM   #66
Zato Ichi
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I completely disagree with you, it is bad practice to stop after you failed a technique, it creates a very bad habit. You need to develop your ability to flow from one technique to another without pause. If you have ever done randori you know that many of your techniques will fail and you need to be able to recover from that fast.
This is entirely true, even in aikido - one of the things you learn from randori (and one of the benefits of this type of training) is that you learn very quickly that stopping after a failed technique and wondering "Now what?" is a sure fire way to be either smashed to the ground with a well placed atemiwaza or get a really a nasty kansetsuwaza which will leave you tapping out pretty quickly (and after a short time you become keenly aware when your opponent has a good lock on your elbow or wrist so it's best to tap early... I've seen people try and fight out of waza and get some moderately serious injuries). Either transition to your next waza quickly, or, if you see it's going no where - or just plain draw a blank - regain a comfortable maai and try again.

However, that is randorigeiko (or, possibly, hikitategeiko) - in just practicing the waza themselves, it would be very bad form to transition into something else.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I think alot of Aikidoka are not prepared to take ukemi from many Judo throws... <snip>
That has more to do with the individual than the waza... for example I could do osotoguruma hard enough to rattle someone's bones or I could do it gently enough that even a beginner with some ukemi training should be able to get right back up and continue training with no ill effects. It's all about control.

Last edited by Zato Ichi : 05-05-2005 at 08:08 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 05-05-2005, 10:21 AM   #67
CNYMike
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I completely disagree with you, it is bad practice to stop after you failed a technique, it creates a very bad habit. You need to develop your ability to flow from one technique to another without pause .....
That "abort/try something" else is built into Aikido. Irimi nage is the obvious example, and on occassion the dojos I've gone to do something where the first thing you try fails and you switch to something else. But when you're learning a technique, I think you have to stop when something doesn't go right. It can be disasterous if you don't.

Back in '97, when I was in the beginning Kali class, one of my partners just wouldn't let me throw him. He said, "People won't let you throw them in real life." "Ok," I said, "but let me get it right ONCE and then you can resist to your heart's conent." Well, he didn't do that, and I got mad and almost sent him into a display case. What did I get out of that? NOTHING.

I'm also in a karate class where my sensei is very big on combining blocking, striking and thowing. We had one green belt who (I guess) was an exchange student from Japan with prior training (she was maybe feve foot nothing but ludicrously strong!), and she wouldn't go slow -- she wanted to do everything full speed on the first try. One time, instead of throwing me to the mat, she almost brought me down on top of her, and I must outweigh her by 100 pounds. Not good.

In the old Kali class under Guro Kevin Seaman, who counts Sensei Eric Paulosn as his grappling instuctor, I've never done full blown rolling around. Never. He susbscribes to the view you build up to that. So I've done plent of classes just learning techniques; one or two with "position sparring," where you try and get a superior position without trying to finish it. Full blown randori would probably come later, but you walk up to it, not jump in and hope you land right.

So yeah, there's a time to flow and roll around and experiment, but there's a time to learn the technique and stop and ask for help when you need it. And yes, it took me a long time to learn to control my temper and do that, but I do it.

Nice that YOU think BJJ and Judo are the same thing. But wasn't Judo founded by some guy named Kano?
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Old 05-05-2005, 10:54 AM   #68
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
That has more to do with the individual than the waza... for example I could do osotoguruma hard enough to rattle someone's bones or I could do it gently enough that even a beginner with some ukemi training should be able to get right back up and continue training with no ill effects. It's all about control.
True, but the problem I found though is that when I did throws like seionage they would get terrified and tense up resulting in very bad ukemi on their part.

I agree that you can control the throw's intensity but I even had problems with them when I threw very slowly. it has alot to do i think with how ukemi is taught in the school, of course some are better than others. The Aikidoka I experienced had exceptionally good forward and backward rolls but were incpompetant at break falls from Judo like throws.
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Old 05-05-2005, 10:57 AM   #69
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Michael, yes there is definately a time when you should focus on learning the technique and not worry about being countered, that is one part of training. But once you are able to perform the technique you should then try and work it into more fluid training.

During a typical Judo practice we do warmups, breakfall practice, kuzushi(off balanacing drills), skill development (like practicing a single technique), then randori for the remainder of the class. You try and work the technique into your randori but it often does not work so you just switch to another technique. Over a long period of time you will find out what techniques work for you and what does not, everyone has techniques that they are better at than others.

All of these stages are very important. In Aikido I found that randori was almost always not a part of the practice, this is bad in my view. Aslo I think breakfall practice should be a part of every single class as well, it actually can be used to substitute for regular warmups.

I am absolutely convinced without a single doubt that randori training is essential to developing practical skills in any martial art.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 05-05-2005 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:06 PM   #70
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Red face Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I did leave Aikido many years ago. What do you mean about Judo being watered down? Do you think it is ineffective? I can only think af a couple of techniques that have been removed from shiai, but they are often practiced in the katas and friendly randori.

There is no Tomiki Aikido anywhere near where I live, otherwise I would definately try it out.

To be honest it would not be a good idea for me to practice in a non-competitive Aikido dojo because I am afraid of hurting people. If I failed an Aikido technique during practice I would move right into a Judo technique just to keep my flow going and not to get in a habit of stopping when things fail, another bad habit I saw in Aikido by the way. I think alot of Aikidoka are not prepared to take ukemi from many Judo throws and I would also likley piss off the instructor by not using pure Aikido all the time.

If I am going to crosstrain I would need to be able to not limit myself to just the techniques of one art when I was practicing. I would need to practice somewhere that would allow me to be creative in my application of technique in that way. My previous Aikido instructor was very open minded about these things but many of the studetns were not and started whining whenever I strayed from the syllabus, they also were not prepared for hard Judo throws. Thre were nikkyus and Ikkyus that cringed at the thought of taking ukemi from seionage for example.
Sorry, watered down wasn't quite what I meant (even though I said it) I need to be more careful with the way I say things. 2 a-bombs were dropped on japan in ww2 because someone wasn't careful with their words . Besides, I haven't experienced judo first hand, so I wouldn't know as well as you. What I meant to say is I know judo throws frequently require lapel grabs, and most people's shirts aren't that strong. These techniques are probably adaptable.

P.S. I'm glad you take martial arts so seriously, and am happy you've found the right one for you
good luck on your journey

-theflyingheadbuttsuplex-

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Old 05-05-2005, 12:29 PM   #71
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Burt, most Judo throws are easily adaptable to someone in street clothes, I can use a t-shirt to use almost any Judo throw if need be, it may rip but all I need is a little off balancing. Most throws can be adapted on people who are shirtless as well, you just take typical wrestling grips instead like a hand on the neck and on the wrist or elbow, from there I can throw very well.
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Old 05-05-2005, 04:30 PM   #72
CNYMike
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Michael, yes there is definately a time when you should focus on learning the technique and not worry about being countered, that is one part of training. But once you are able to perform the technique you should then try and work it into more fluid training.
I see. My point is before you get to the "able to perform" stage. If a technique "fails" not because it's been countered but because you've made a mistake, then yeah, you should stop and double check. Especially when, as in Aikido (but I also found this in Kali), missing one key detail can blow the whole technique. And I still run into this even though I've gone once a week for a year, so it's not like you'll get it overnight!

Quote:
..... In Aikido I found that randori was almost always not a part of the practice .....
If you're talking about the kind of randori found in Judo, well no, that's not going to be in Aikido at all. But the prohibition against that goes all the way back to O Sensei, so saying Aikido people should do randori is like saying baseball players should work on their field goal kicks.

If you're talking about the kind of randori they do do, with one nage and two or more ukes, there are probably valid reasons why they hold off on that.

Quote:
.... I am absolutely convinced without a single doubt that randori training is essential to developing practical skills in any martial art.
My Kali instructor would probaly agree with you on that point. But he's also the one who encouraged me to follow through on my desire to get back into Aikido. Just a thought to make your head explode.

As for breakfalls being a regualr part of the warmups ..... when I was in Seidokan 16 years ago, they were. In the dojo I'm in, they're not. But at a dojo we're tight with, they are. It may come down to an individual sensei's prerogative.
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Old 05-05-2005, 09:02 PM   #73
deepsoup
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
If you're talking about the kind of randori found in Judo, well no, that's not going to be in Aikido at all.
You're generalising a bit too much there, it does exist in several systems, the best known probably being Shodokan.

I think (the other) Michael would really quite enjoy it, too bad its not available in his neighbourhood.

Sean
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:19 AM   #74
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

Michael (neal), do you study any particular style of Judo? I know there aren't that many.

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Old 05-06-2005, 01:25 PM   #75
Michael Neal
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Re: I think I'm done with Aikido

just regular Kodokan Judo, there is only one other type that I know of called Zen Judo that deemphasizes randori and competition
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