Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Teaching

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-15-2006, 07:34 AM   #1
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Having spent a few days contemplating how I feel at the moment I'm fairly sure I've drawn my own conclusions and see the way forward however, being relatively new to running a dojo (two years this month) I'm still on that learning curve and, its just as steep as it was one year eleven months ago..

As we (our dojo) are about to celebrate our second anniversary with a seminar and a few gradings I expected to be in a fairly "up" mood with both the dojo and those about to challenge for their next grades however, unfortunately, that isn't the case. In the last few months I've seen four of my students drift off in to obscurity, one go to uni (no fault of his of course) and a number of more experienced students (middle and middle senior kyu), I assumed (given how they normally perform) would know what they need to know (or more importantly, would have a good idea of what they needed to polish before a grade) Not so apparently.

Perhaps I've dropped the ball so to speak in terms of their preparation for this seminar and their gradings however, given their relative mat time, their supposed knowledge and their performances during normal training, I haven't dedicated 'specific time' to additionally "prepare" them for these grades because I've always been generally happy with what I've seen from them however, from discussions I've had with them I'm left feeling somewhat let down by their attitudes toward the grading its self, I don't feel I have their 100% trust in my opinion as their instructor to nominate them for examinations by our shidoin.

What I'd like to ask is what goes on in your relative dojo in terms of 'pre-exam' preparation for those grades who've trained for a number of years and been through gradings before? I'd appreciate that from both students and instructor's perspectives if possible.

Thanks in advance
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:09 AM   #2
Laurel Seacord
Dojo: Seishinkan (Ki no Kenkyukai), Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 24
Japan
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

From a student's perspective, we have intense preparation for the grading from one and a half months (for the lower kyu) to three to four months (for shodan). In addition, we get A LOT of attention and focused instruction from the teacher geared to improving our techniques significantly. Gradings are taken very seriously as an occasion to rise above one's current plateau, and to get to a new level of awareness in practice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:22 AM   #3
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Well...I don't think theres a standard approach - everyone does it differently it seems.

In Templegate we make a big thing out of gradings, we take time to prepare each group for their grading and as the event draws closer we have mock gradings and ramp up the intensity of practice to help everyone peak on the day.

We have the day, its a pretty formal but fun affair - grading panel in club blazers etc.

Then we go out for a fair few beers.

This is fairly easy for us, we are a big club these days and separate classes for each kyu level.

This isn't so easy if you have a more traditional mixed class.

In terms of attitude to gradings - We've had similar problems to yourself in that some people are frightened to grade, some just don't believe in gradings, others want to grade when they feel ready and not because the instructor says so.

Dave - You've registered on our Templegate forum, have a look at some of the posts there trying to exhort students to put in the efforts that we feel they should.

Sometimes you just have to accept that what the students want to achieve may not match what you'd like them to achieve.

Sometimes the reverse is also true - I've lost students that I thought were friends because I had to be honest and say that they were not yet ready to grade, I've even been threatened as a result.

You can't please everyone and accepting that comes along with time.

As a rule though - we have a clear syllabus for each grade and we make sure the students are familiar with it. No one gets put forward unless we believe they are ready to move up. All paperwork must be in place to ease administration.

Really we do everything we can to help the students help themselves and recognise their grading for what it is. .........A highly important milestone.

Regards

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 11-15-2006 at 08:34 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:43 AM   #4
sullivanw
Dojo: Portland Aikikai
Location: Portland
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I've been training for a few years now, and we generally do to prep for grading is to take advantage of open mat time before and after class. We really take a lot on ourselves in that regard, but a few of our instructors will begin specifically covering techniques from certain kyu-grades, especially if there are a few people that are grading for a specific rank. Hope this helps,

-Will
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 09:13 AM   #5
MikeLogan
 
MikeLogan's Avatar
Location: Rochester, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 281
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
David wrote:
In the last few months I've seen four of my students drift off in to obscurity,
If it has really only been a month or two, or three, send them a link to Ross Robertson's Temple Dogs, and offer a sincere invitation to come celebrate the milestone for both the dojo, those grading, the new year, etc etc. It's not as though you're fishing them back in, but a hello from old friends. Auld Lang Syne and all that.

Regarding the attitude of those testing
Quote:
I don't feel I have their 100% trust in my opinion as their instructor to nominate them for examinations by our shidoin.
As a student I would offer that this is a sign that they are taking the grading seriously. They don't want to screw it up. If the lesson you're hoping they learned is confidence, or at least abolishing the fear of making a mistake, then some good old book learning has to be done. I am not familiar with how aikido might approach such a learning exercise, I do believe it would facilitate such, but I don't see how it would directly handle it. There is more philosophy out there than just aikido.

Their own expectation of dissappointment may be hindering them. Everyone has expectations, even teachers, where they come from and where they lead should be explored.

Congrats on the achievement, by the way.
michael.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 10:00 AM   #6
heathererandolph
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Dojo: Kokikai Aikido Boston
Location: Boston
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 117
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I don't know if you have surveyed your students but it might be helpful to hand them a questionnaire several times a year so you can get feedback from your students. there might be some hidden problems you can correct that are not related to the grading. See if you can get in touch with the students that left and get some feedback from them also if possible.

Training has to be fun in some way for students to want to continue. I detect a certain negative attitude from you when you say "I'm left feeling somewhat let down by their attitudes toward the grading its self, I don't feel I have their 100% trust in my opinion as their instructor to nominate them for examinations by our shidoin." They let you down, they don't have trust, etc... are all negative comments. For the sake of the students you still have, you need to be upbeat and proud of their accomplishments. Forget about the students that left.

After all, a lot of people leave Aikido, for various reasons. No one has complete control over a student's success or failure. Testing, as we call it, can bring out many different emotions from students. If they left because of fear of testing or because they decided they did not want to be that serious about Aikido, that's not your fault! Testing is usually part of the study.

I think you could consider some preparation, in order for your students to feel more confident while being graded. Ask you students how they feel the grading went and what they would like to do about preparation in the future. Because you are a new teacher, it would pay off to try to analyze the situation unemotionally. The most important thing, is be positive. Wipe those negative thoughts out of your mind and realize this is a learning process for you as well as your students. They are going to emulate you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 10:18 AM   #7
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I'm an instructor with only about 5 years experience. Firstly I would say that after about 3 years you are better able to determine your own objectives for the club and you can teach the same things faster and better.

My objectives tend to be more practical application orientated and therefore focus on learning the most important techniques very well and in a variety of situations, and getting people to cope with stress, as well as learning principles of balance and movement rather than technicalities.

I have a similar problem to yourself, in that when it comes around to grading (and really we grade relatively rarely) I often rush to fill in the bits of the syllabus which haven't been taught. I would say this results in my students being under-graded for their actual aikido ability. You are comparing your students to a base-line set by the organisation. Admittedly you have responsibility to ensure that your students are aware of the requirements of this grading. More importantly though, is that you have achieved what YOU want to achieve with your students. For example, with all my top students I have confidence that they could apply what they are doing in the dojo to an unpredictable attack situation. However your objectives may be different.

Don't be disheartened. Obviously you were unaware that they would fail, so you did make a bad judgement. Even if you don't have time yourself to focus on gradings, ensure that your students understand what will be required so they can practise on their own. Also, students come and go. There are relatively few core students that really get a grasp on what you yourself have learnt and are thinking in relation to aikido (most will be delving around in the technicalities). It is these core students (or even just one student) who will transmit and adapt your understanding to future generations.

Last edited by ian : 11-15-2006 at 10:22 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 11:05 AM   #8
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

The old saying about people come and go ......most go, few stay, fewer understand.
(can you hear the voice of Master Po, with plunking samisen in the background?)

Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2006, 05:37 AM   #9
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote:
plunking samisen
That sounds like it should go on the Naughty Aikido thread
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 10:19 AM   #10
Stefan Stenudd
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 530
Sweden
Offline
Students grading and leaving

Funny. Unaware of this thread, I just added a text to my website: "The ups and downs of running an aikido dojo". Maybe you find it helpful:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikido-dojo.htm

About grades, I don't really believe in allowing them to influence daily practice that much. It is important - independently of gradings - to train basic techniques substantially, and that should do to prepare students for gradings. Time takes care of the rest.
If they don't make it this time, they will the next. No big deal.
We don't learn aikido to get grades, but to learn aikido.
Of course, if there are specific weaknesses recurring in your students, even after some time, then you might need to consider how you teach them these things.

About students quitting, I find that this happens in waves. The first generation of students in a dojo seems at first to stay forever, and then it tends to leave as a flock, in a short time period. Following generations have a few waves of quitting:

One is after the first semester or even during it. Aikido was not really their thing. Nothing to worry about.

Next is when they've gotten quite good and promising - say after two years or so - and that gets you by surprise, since you thought they were devoted to aikido in a lasting way. I find that the most talented ones, who develop very quickly, tend to quit at this point. They discover that talent is not enough, you have to really work and be patient, too. They are not prepared for it, so they leave. Therefore, it's important in the classes to try to make everybody work hard with things they are still unable to do - even the talented ones.

The third wave of quitters is when they get the blackbelt, sadly. The dan grade probably became too important a goal for them, so they don't feel the urge to remain when they have gotten it. This seems to be common with people who had to struggle particularly hard and long for the blackbelt. If this happens a lot in a dojo, I guess it puts too much emphasis on grades.

As a teacher, you should dare to form the classes so that you enjoy them yourself. Don't make it a duty for you to have students advance in grades, but to teach them aikido and to show them how rewarding that learning process is in itself.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2006, 10:39 AM   #11
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
We have the day, its a pretty formal but fun affair - grading panel in club blazers etc.
Not in dogi? Sitting on the mat, or behind a table? The thought is completely alien to me. We are all stuck in our patterns of thoughts, I guess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 09:48 AM   #12
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Not in dogi? Sitting on the mat, or behind a table? The thought is completely alien to me. We are all stuck in our patterns of thoughts, I guess.
Behind a table Hanna. Usually off the mat - we'd look even sillier in our blazers and trousers with bare feet or socks ...especially some of my socks

Sometimes we are in a gi depending on occasion.

eg Dan gradings may take place at our Summer school. Our federation head may sit on the panel or it may be another senior. Usually if you've been given time to prepare which is more the case on our in house kyu gradings then its expected that you'll go with the full formal thing...but sometime instuctors are seconded to the panel straight from training and don't have time to change.

apologies for going a bit off thread here.

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 11:25 AM   #13
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
What I'd like to ask is what goes on in your relative dojo in terms of 'pre-exam' preparation for those grades who've trained for a number of years and been through gradings before?
Two weeks from every test period are devoted to test technique practice for the kyu ranks. I myself took time on the weekends to train with the branch dojo instructor and a friend before my ikkyu test (it was to be held at the main dojo, where I'd never tested before). About a month of Sundays, + the two weeks prior to the test at the main school, every night for two hours. Along with regular training.

I've known people to take time off from work to do dan tests at the Doshinkan...not unheard of at all. I think it varies widely from place to place...some places, it's expected that you will pass if you test. I, on the other hand, have failed kyu tests...at the Doshinkan, it's not ever a given that you will pass. Dan or kyu tests.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2006, 07:50 PM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: Japan, Kodaira
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 759
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I don't think I have ever taught a prep for grading class. I dislike the whole approach.

As a teacher, wherever I have been we have always had external examiners. I just have them train normally until the day of the test - in that sense, I suppose you could say that every lesson was a prep for grading! Of course, you can see some students going through stuff in anticipation in free practice time.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2006, 08:03 PM   #15
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,216
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Each rank test only gives a focus. Ideally, everyone in class is practicing for their next rank. The challenge for the sensei is to work on things in each class that pertain to all kyu rank tests. The basic aikido dojo curriculim is set up to take each person on a journey. I really think the majority of the aikido instructors will find room to agree here.

In gassho,

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 03:18 PM   #16
David Shevitz
Dojo: Aikido Kokikai South Everett
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 15
Offline
Re: Students grading and leaving

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Funny. Unaware of this thread, I just added a text to my website: "The ups and downs of running an aikido dojo". Maybe you find it helpful:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikido-dojo.htm
This is a nicely written essay, Stefan. As someone who has been running a small dojo for a few years now, and has recently moved it to its own space, I have been wrestling with the issues of how to articulate some of the ups and downs associated with running a dojo. Apparently, I don't need to--your essay covers things quite well!

I personally fall under the "every day is training for testing" mentality; however, I can see and appreciate how others might encourage more preparation. Both I think offer something to the student. By not training specifically for a test, I think students tend to remain a bit more focused on their regular training. Yet, by having test preparations, I've seen students gain the understanding that, yes, testing is important and you should be ready!

Best Regards,

Dave Shevitz
http://www.everettaikido.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 08:21 AM   #17
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Dear friends,

It has recently been brought to my attention that one but possibly two members of my dojo, now resigned; may have taken offence at my posting the original content of this thread.

I would like to make it publicly known that my posting the original information was not intended with malice or ill-intent but, with a genuine desire to learn from other people's experiences and opinions on the enclosed subject. I posted here as a relatively new and somewhat inexperienced dojo leader, although I may have studied aikido for now approaching 20 years, I have only been responsible for running a club and, other people's progression for just under two and a half years thus; I am still on a learning curve.

I would thank everyone for contributing to this thread and providing me with the information I was essentially looking for, I also wish to again re-state that my post was not ill-intended.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2007, 07:38 AM   #18
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,216
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Not every aikido student can become a teacher; it is as simple as that.

In gassho
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2007, 01:50 PM   #19
Erik Calderon
 
Erik Calderon's Avatar
Dojo: Erik Calderon's Martial Arts Program
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 64
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I've had my dojo for eight years. Sometimes, at the moment it seems like I'm having ups and downs, but when I look back, I can only really see a steady progression up.

I don't look at testing, like testing. To me, its more a promotion because a student has completed the necessary time requirements.

I don't fail anyone when they accomplished the necessary time needed to get promoted.

I focus on a more non-competitive aspect of the art. Student A might do Aikido for 30 days and totally understand the techniques. Student A deserves 5th Kyu. Student B also completes the 30 days, but doesn't get it yet. They are different, but they have both accomplished something. They both deserve the Rank. To give it to one and not the other would be "unfair" in a non-competitive way of being.

Some instructors are too worried their students will make them look bad.....as an instructor, I don't think you should even care or worry about something like that. Each person is on their own path to learning Aikido, unless you're trying to create a cult.

Erik Sasha Calderon.
Aikido ShinKiKan.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2007, 02:02 PM   #20
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Hi Erik, I respect what you say, but disagree strongly. I think one of the first things I do when I meet an instructor I've heard about, is to check out the students. Are they at least on the way to doing what he does? How has he taught them to behave?

I have to remember when I go other places, people (especially instructors) may very well judge my instructor through how he has trained me.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2007, 05:18 PM   #21
Shipley
Dojo: UBC Okanagan Aikido Club
Location: Kelowna
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 94
Canada
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Stefan,

The essay on your web page was excellent, thanks for sharing the link to it.

Cheers,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2007, 08:11 PM   #22
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Erik, I respect what you say, but disagree strongly. I think one of the first things I do when I meet an instructor I've heard about, is to check out the students. Are they at least on the way to doing what he does? How has he taught them to behave?

I have to remember when I go other places, people (especially instructors) may very well judge my instructor through how he has trained me.

Best,
Ron
I'm in 100% agreement with Ron.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2007, 09:37 PM   #23
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I'm with Ron too on this one. Both my technique and my behavior are supposed to reflect the quality of my teachers, and its my responsibility to live up to them. Conversely, if I do poorly in an exam, the visiting Japanese shihan will tend to blame the teacher who allowed me to test in the first place when I wasn't ready. Teacher and student are accountable to one another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 11:43 AM   #24
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 242
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

I've been teaching and running my own dojo for 14 years now. Here are some of my thoughts on the topic of testing and teaching:

My students test, not to see if they are skillful enough to obtain their next rank, but because they are skillful enough to obtain their next rank.

No student tests before our shihan until they have "pre-tested" before me (no matter what rank they are testing for). If they can meet my standard, they will exceed the shihan's standard. This assures that our shihan doesn't suffer the embarrassment of having to fail a student, the student testing doesn't suffer the embarrassment of failing a test, and I don't look like an ass for putting an unprepared student out before our shihan to test.

Over the span of 3 months or so before their actual rank test I run my students through a series of mock tests. I purposely make these mock tests a tense experience for my students to encourage them to take the upcoming test and their preparations for it seriously. I adopt a very sober demeanour while observing them and am sharply critical of their mistakes. Of course, overdoing this will just discourage my students and put them off the idea of testing and of having me for an instructor, so I balance my sobriety during these mock tests with a much easier, more encouraging manner during regular training.

The phrase "serious fun" describes what I'm shooting for in the training at my dojo. I want intense, focused training that still manages to be lighthearted. Not an easy thing to achieve, I can tell you, but so worth the effort. It is a great thing to see my sweat-soaked students having a good laugh as they fling each other around. This is the only kind of aikido training in which I want to be involved. I make this happen, however; I set this tone for my dojo. And if I succeed in making training serious fun for my students it is my opinion that they learn better and persist longer in their training.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Gambatte, David!

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 02:34 PM   #25
scarey
Dojo: Shinkikan
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Up and downs. Teaching / running a dojo

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote:

I don't look at testing, like testing. To me, its more a promotion because a student has completed the necessary time requirements.

I don't fail anyone when they accomplished the necessary time needed to get promoted.
Good point. Anyone can pass or fail a test. But when you are promoted based on your time committed to training versus how much you know *when you're being tested*, to me that promotion means more.

Last edited by scarey : 01-22-2007 at 02:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
We need dojo help Aiki-lost Anonymous 13 05-13-2006 09:17 AM
Beginners Retention Rates akiy Teaching 45 04-05-2006 11:13 PM
hold downs? Axiom Techniques 11 01-01-2002 09:21 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate