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Old 01-27-2005, 07:36 PM   #1
emi_moes
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kata dori vs. katate dori

durring class today I recalled something that I've confused in the past while training. is kata dori the lapel grab & katate dori the same side wrist grab or do I have these confused?

~Emi, Domo arigato gozaimashita
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Old 01-27-2005, 07:37 PM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

you are correct, kata dori = lapel/shoulder grab, katate tori = wrist grab

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:00 AM   #3
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

In this context, in general usage:

Kata = shoulder
Ryokata = two/both shoulders
Eri = lapel
Katate = single wrist
Ryote or ryote mochi dori = both wrists (grabbed)
Morote = two hands grabbing one wrist
Kosa dori or kosa katate dori = single-wrist, cross-hand

There's some variation between styles and lineages, sometimes from dojo to dojo, too.

Chuck

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Old 01-28-2005, 06:09 AM   #4
Greg Jennings
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Japanese seems to me to be the language of infinite homophones .

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 01-28-2005, 06:30 AM   #5
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Japanese seems to me to be the language of infinite homophones .

Best regards,
Yes, this is what makes the language so interesting\and difficult. There are, for example, 139 different Chinese characters in written Japanese that can be read as 'ki', (as in ai-ki-do).

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-28-2005, 07:16 PM   #6
Andres Moliver
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

For future reference, Te means hand. So anything with Te in it you can be sure is a grab at the wrist.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:20 PM   #7
Don_Modesto
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Andres Moliver wrote:
For future reference, Te means hand. So anything with Te in it you can be sure is a grab at the wrist.
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:19 PM   #8
emi_moes
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

thank you very much, I later discused this with my sensai & it seemed something that a lot of past/current students have had difficulty with, he also differentiated between the 2 the next class peroid. once again thanks for the input

~Emi, Domo arigato gozaimashita
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:08 PM   #9
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.
You know...that makes sense....

Bryce
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:52 AM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Yes, this is what makes the language so interesting\and difficult. There are, for example, 139 different Chinese characters in written Japanese that can be read as 'ki', (as in ai-ki-do).
Hi Peter:

Well.... reading and pronouncing wouldn't be the same "ki" though, would it? For the "Ki" we're generally talking about, both Chinese and Japanese tend to use the right-hand character up at the top left of this page, wouldn't you agree? Good heavens.... this reminds me of the story about a college professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the "Illiad" wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name.

Mike
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Old 02-22-2005, 05:32 PM   #11
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

To respond to Mike Sigman:

Actually, the ki character at the top of this page is NOT generally used in Japan today. Nor is it used in China. The character you see (above) is the old version. Both Japanese and Chinese use two different new versions - confusing huh? Only Korea uses the old original version (as above), except that, they rarely use kanji (hanja) in their writing these days.

PS Not sure about Taiwan - they probably use the old version too.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 02-22-2005 at 05:35 PM.

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Old 02-22-2005, 06:23 PM   #12
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Peter:

Well.... reading and pronouncing wouldn't be the same "ki" though, would it? For the "Ki" we're generally talking about, both Chinese and Japanese tend to use the right-hand character up at the top left of this page, wouldn't you agree? Good heavens.... this reminds me of the story about a college professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the "Illiad" wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name.

Mike
My point was, in response to Greg Jennings' post, the simpler one that, e.g., in gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:35 PM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
My point was, in response to Greg Jennings' post, the simpler one that, e.g., in gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.
Oh, that use of "ki". I thought we were talking about the single character, not the inclusive.

Mike
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:53 PM   #14
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.
Hello Don,

My Japanese students here have a different problem.

Of course, there is the hearing problem. They hear the techniques called out in a grading test from people like me; their native language is uttered in a 'home' setting, but by non natives, which is usually a major challenge.

There is an additional problem causd by the fact that aikido terms are not really common Japanese. Thus, no adult Japanese would have any problem in immediately understanding and writing any of the terms mentioned in my earlier post (escept perhaps for jaki). But kata-dori? Taking the shoulder? Katate-dori? Half hand taking? They would need to fit these terms with the logograph-art gallery carried in their heads. I have found that the terms make much better sense after the techniques have been shown, not before.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:02 PM   #15
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oh, that use of "ki". I thought we were talking about the single character, not the inclusive.

Mike
Well, I was talking about single characters, but not just the middle character used in 'ai-KI-DOU'. Mr Jennings mentioned Japanese being a language of homophones and I take this to mean the same sound, but different characters / meanings. Writing the same character in different ways adds a further dimension to the problem.

Sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-22-2005, 09:47 PM   #16
Don_Modesto
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Hi, Peter,

That's interesting about your students not understanding the Jpn, either.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.
Any plans to write a book, Peter? You could write so many on aikido and I'd buy every one. Twice or more, probably, the way I buy Ellis' as gifts to aiki-buddies.

Bokken and Keyboard by Pete Goldsbury;

Aikido and Japanese Culture by P.A. Goldsbury;

Remembering Osensei's DESHI by Peter Goldsbury;

Aikido Shihan and the Harmony of Admin Meetings by Peter Goldsbury;

The Spiritual Pretensions of Aikido by Peter Goldsbury


...works for me, anyway...

YOROSHIKU!

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-23-2005, 02:05 AM   #17
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Hi, Peter,

That's interesting about your students not understanding the Jpn, either.



Any plans to write a book, Peter? You could write so many on aikido and I'd buy every one. Twice or more, probably, the way I buy Ellis' as gifts to aiki-buddies.

Bokken and Keyboard by Pete Goldsbury;

Aikido and Japanese Culture by P.A. Goldsbury;

Remembering Osensei's DESHI by Peter Goldsbury;

Aikido Shihan and the Harmony of Admin Meetings by Peter Goldsbury;

The Spiritual Pretensions of Aikido by Peter Goldsbury


...works for me, anyway...

YOROSHIKU!
Hello Don,

I'm working on it.

However, I think the last three publications would have to be posthumous .

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-23-2005, 05:10 PM   #18
Ryan Bigelow
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Ive only trained in the US once, but I couldn't understand any of the Japanese spoken in the dojo either. My Japanese is far from perfect, but Ive become use to hearing the "perfect" (read:native) pronunciation (with a heavy dose of mikawa-ben of course ) so foreign pronunciation might as well be an entirely different language.
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:58 PM   #19
Don_Modesto
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I'm working on it.

However, I think the last three publications would have to be posthumous .
Ah! Well, in that case, by all means, take your time.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-24-2005, 08:09 AM   #20
Gabriel A
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.
Could you pls explain this a little bit more...
Thanxs
Gabriel

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:40 AM   #21
Pablo Tamargo
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Gabriel,

I thik that if you reed the words by every pair of leters they will soun more less like: ka-ta do-ri four beat (cuatro tiempos en espaņol), and ka-ta-te do-ri five beats (cinco tiempos).

Sorry for the spanish words guys, I was just trying to explain myself beter to gabriel. (tiempos means tempo like in music.)
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:42 AM   #22
Pablo Tamargo
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Sorry I missed some letters in think and sound. oooops
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:53 AM   #23
Gabriel A
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

thanx Pablo... but what does the beats do for me? still don't get that part?

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
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Old 02-24-2005, 02:07 PM   #24
Don_Modesto
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

Quote:
Gabriel Arias wrote:
Could you pls explain this a little bit more...
Thanxs
Gabriel
Mr. Tamargo did an admirable job. Does it work for you yet?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-24-2005, 02:42 PM   #25
Pablo Tamargo
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Re: kata dori vs. katate dori

As I undertood, Don is saying that during examinations, the students (under stress) react to an instruction that they think they heard. If the instructor order them to perform katate dori they may hear kata dori and do someting diferent than expected, and that by listening to the tempo and the general sound of the instructiion it may be easier to get it right.

Thats what I did get from it.
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