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Old 02-23-2005, 06:50 PM   #51
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

so what style are you going to cross-train in? and why are you selecting that one?
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Old 02-24-2005, 09:05 AM   #52
"Different Stroke"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
so what style are you going to cross-train in? and why are you selecting that one?
Honestly, Jean, I don't know at this moment. Before, I was looking forward to join an Iwama-ryu class. To keep to your "living to higher standard" motto, I would be cheating on the Iwama teacher. Consider this scenario before the first lesson,"Actually sensei I am here to study your techniques and principles emphasized in your school. I don't know how long it's going to take me to master but I promised my present teacher not to take grade and to instruct the Iwama-styled aikido". What would you think of his response? Should I not tell him until such time he ask me to grade? Of course not, I would be deceiving him/her to earn some knowledge. That leave me with Yoshinkan only, right?. Sorry to the Tomiki guys, there isn't any school at where I live.

LC,
You got exactly what I said. Thanks for the explanations made to Ian.

Regards

Different Stroke
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Old 02-24-2005, 11:11 AM   #53
Bronson
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Consider this scenario before the first lesson,"Actually sensei I am here to study your techniques and principles emphasized in your school. I don't know how long it's going to take me to master but I promised my present teacher not to take grade and to instruct the Iwama-styled aikido". What would you think of his response?
Well, you had imagined a particular response from your current sensei about wanting to train in other styles and the real response was quite different from what you imagined it would be. Perhaps the Iwama instructor would say "that's ok I understand and appreciate the loyalty you show to the wishes of your first sensei. You are welcome to train with us as much as is allowed." You just won't know how he'll respond until you ask, so better to ask and find out than to waste a lot of time speculating on things you can't know.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-24-2005, 03:09 PM   #54
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

I'm with B.

In addition to that, I've never seen anyone refused because they wanted to train in the dojo I was at.

As far as Yoshinkan goes, you could do a lot of training just off the books by Shioda Sensei (Dynamic Aikido, Total Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido). Two of those books say that that's what they're for in the intros.

I mention that, because if Yoshinkan has those types of books, you could probably get a good rooting in Iwama-ryu through some text.

I'm not familiar with Iwama-ryu, but I've seen a few people from Aikikai's who trained with us. If you're looking for something that is different from Aikikai, a Yoshinkan style might fit the bill--the Aikikai folks did it a whole lot different from us.
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Old 02-24-2005, 04:53 PM   #55
MaryKaye
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

I had occasion once to go to a sensei of another style and say, "I would like to train in your school; I'll pay dues and due chores. But I can only stay for a limited time until my own dojo reopens; I don't plan to grade here. I would totally understand if you didn't think this was worthwhile."

She said, "By all means train here" and I spent a happy four weeks being confused by her style.

So, you don't know until you try. I don't see any harm in politely asking, with full disclosure.

Mary Kaye
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Old 02-27-2005, 01:15 AM   #56
"Different Stroke"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Hi all,

Thanks for all the advice. I will be honest at the onset.

Surprisingly, the one and only Iwama-ryu teacher in town was my current teacher's student. He returned not too long ago from Denmark to start his school. When he first arrived in Germany, the only aikido school in the town where he worked was Iwama-ryu style. He stayed there for a couple of years before moving on to Denmark and kept training with the style.

I think in such circumstances, my teacher should have forgiven him.

Regards

Different Stroke
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:28 AM   #57
David Yap
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
...snip... He stayed there for a couple of years before moving on to Denmark and kept training with the style...Regards

Different Stroke
Anon,

I tend to understand your "sempai".

In "My Iwama Teacher", Bill Witt sensei wrote, "…I began to see distinctiveness in his approach and this resonated with me. It was not only the effortness with which he would execute techniques, but it was his patience and willingness to teach us beginners. He taught us techniques that were deceptively simple to watch, and showed us why it was important to do the techniques in a specific manner time after time. At times, he would stop the class and point out why a foot had to be at a particular point because the rest of the techniques would not be successful otherwise. I was being initiated into the mysteries of a martial art…" About 7-8 years ago, for a brief period I had the opportunity to train with Steve Ng sensei, a direct student of Barry Knight of Melbourne, Australia. Knight sensei himself was a direct student of Morihiro Saito. Though Steve has not studied directly under Saito shihan, yet the influence of Saito's teaching through his immediate teacher could be felt/seen in Steve's techniques and instructions - the similar qualities described by Bill Witt sensei. Perhaps this affection for one teacher and school is a common bondage share by all Iwama-ryu stylists across the globe.

Steve sensei, if you happen to read this post, thank you and do drop us a line when you pass by here again.

Regards

David Y
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Old 03-11-2005, 06:54 PM   #58
"dismayed by divisions"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

I am curious about this thread since it is a very similar situation with a fairly well known "sensei" who was the subject of some controversy.

There was somewhat of a "split" that occurred between this sensei and the organization he/she worked for. The sensei quickly went on to form another organization for the dojos and students that left the original organization.

This is complete heresay and not intended to spark debate about the particular sensei but only the "hypothetical" situation. The heresay is that the sensei has said quite clearly on several occassions and to several students that they are not to attend other organizations seminars, especially dojos and seminars associated in any way to the original group.

My question is this: if this situation is real and not hypothetical, and the sensei is of fairly high rank and fairly well known, how would you feel toward this person if they were your sensei and giving you this direct order; and how would you feel if you were not a student of this sensei but heard about it going on?

awaiting your wisdom...

Last edited by akiy : 03-22-2005 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Removing identifying information regarding organization.
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:48 PM   #59
MaryKaye
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

It would depend on what I knew about the reasons for the split.

Purely hypothetical situation: if I went to my sensei and said "Why?" and he said, and seemed to have evidence for, "Because the parent organization is recklessly disregarding its students' safety, and I value you too much to see you get injured," then I would be inclined to abide by the restriction. Or if he said "The parent organization is handling its money in illegal or unethical ways and I really don't want to provide them with any more money," ditto.

If it were "I'm mad at them and don't want you studying with them" or "I don't like their aikido and don't want you studying with them" I would be very balky, and might leave my current dojo. I'm really uncomfortable with this kind of attempted control over students, and also with this kind of feud-perpetuating behavior.

My current teachers have some less than entirely cordial history with other teachers, but they have made no effort to prevent us from studying where we please, as long as we scrupulously avoid importing practices they regard as unsafe into our training with them. One of my teachers winces whenever she hears about my training elsewhere, because she's afraid I will get hurt, but doesn't attempt to forbid it--occasionally gives me pointed "safety tips", that's all. This would definitely be my preferred attitude in the wake of such a split.

Mary Kaye
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:32 PM   #60
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

In a not-hypothetical sense, I would say that I'm attending a seminar held outside my organization this weekend. I would not attend the seminars of the original group, because I trust my sensei, and the head of my organization, who have recently changed affiliations because of a split of a large aikido organization.

Last edited by akiy : 03-22-2005 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Removing identifying information regarding organization.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:14 PM   #61
"Different stroke"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Hi all,

I thought that this thread has long been concluded. The circumstances of recent posts are very much different from my teacher's dojo.

At his dojo, it is a continuing saga between Hirohito Saito shihan's aikido (the Founder's aikido) and Aikikai Hombu dojo (the Nidai Doshu's aikido). Though the late Saito shihan may be now in aiki paradise togather with O Sensei and his son, one or two senior Hombu shihan's grievances with late Saito shihan are so deep-rooted that they never go away even after his passing. IMHO, he/they too have influenced the current Doshu in someway. For example, eventhough Saito shihan's students also hold aikikai ranks the subject of Iwama ranks are taboo in non-Iwama style aikikai dojo. I will be honest to quote him, "Don't ever cause me to lose face with Hombu. As long as nobody knows that you are my student, you can train in any Iwama-styled dojo". I can train but I cannot take grade from a Iwama-styled dojo actually mean I must be discrete and low-profiled with my training in a Iwama school. Frankly, I am tired and disillusion with the Aikido philosophy of harmony and blending. It is absolutely disgraceful to the Founder - isn't Saito's Ibaragi dojo part of Aikikai. Wasn't he appointed by the Ueshiba family to be the caretaker of the Aiki Shrine? From what I read, Saito shihan's loyalty to the Ueshiba family was so strong that even before he died he requested all his senior students never to break away from Aikikai.

Jean, any advice on that?

Regards

Different Stroke
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Old 03-12-2005, 01:32 PM   #62
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
...how would you feel toward this person if they were your sensei and giving you this direct order; and how would you feel if you were not a student of this sensei but heard about it going on?
There's nothing to "feel." If he says it, you follow it.

Your feelings are conjurings of the ego. You train, amongst other things, to subjugate the ego. Therefore, you must overcome any feeling.

As far as, "if you were not a student..." Same thing.
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Old 03-12-2005, 02:28 PM   #63
"dubious"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Input noted, although sad to think that in this day and age there are still people out there called "Sensei" that think telling the very people who look to them for guidance that they should not experience everything; that somehow they will be better by not thinking for themselves.

Sad also to think that their are students out there that simply do what the instructor tells them to do without question. Of course, your answer presupposes that the sensei in this hypothetical situation is an upstanding citizen with nothing but the student's best interest in mind. To say that there is nothing to feel is a bit ignorant since we train, not to simply DO, but to become more aware and sensitive to everything around us, including potentially erroneous and/or misleading orders by an authority figure. Do we not?...
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:02 PM   #64
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Different Strokes,

Do what you KNOW to be the right thing. Other than that, that situation sounds like it sucks


Quote:
Input noted, although sad to think that in this day and age there are still people out there called "Sensei" that think telling the very people who look to them for guidance that they should not experience everything; that somehow they will be better by not thinking for themselves.
You know, I'd just bet that you were one of the people who were talking about "blaming the victim" in the Pizza Parlor thread.


Quote:
1)Sad also to think that their are students out there that simply do what the instructor tells them to do without question. Of course, 2)your answer presupposes that the sensei in this hypothetical situation is an upstanding citizen with nothing but the student's best interest in mind. 3)To say that there is nothing to feel is a bit ignorant since we train, not to simply DO, but to become more aware and sensitive to everything around us, including potentially erroneous and/or misleading orders by an authority figure. Do we not?...
I put the numbers in for easy response.

1)I think it's refreshing. Believing you know what's best is a demonstration of arrogance.

2)That's right. If you don't believe that's the case, then you wouldn't be following that person. Once you decide that that's the case, there's no need for further questions...just training.

3)I believe that we're training to become more sensitive by quieting the conscious mind. The issue at hand is borne of conscious thought. Therefore, no we do not.


In Hagakure, it is said that the retainer should leave all questions of good and evil to his master.

If you want to practice half-hearted, go ahead. If Aikido is just a dance to you, then play when you go to the dojo. But if Aikido and the philosophy of martial arts is who you are, then look for the wisdom in those words.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:27 PM   #65
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
In Hagakure, it is said that the retainer should leave all questions of good and evil to his master
Cough...

Quote:
Hagakure consists primarily of stories about samurai and commentaries on these stories, which Tsunetomo dictated to a fellow samurai. Hagakure was not widely known after it was written, except perhaps in Tsunetomo's own Saga domain. During the twentieth century it gained a great deal of popularity with the rise of militarism and nationalism in the 1930s. It was even said that kamikaze pilots wrote down verses from the Hagakure on a piece of cloth and tied it around their heads before their missions. The Japanese novelist Mishima Yukio was also extremely interested in Hagakure.
From http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/chushi...o/Hagakure.htm

Not exactly *my* role models...

You can read what Diane Skoss thinks of it here:
http://www.koryubooks.com/store/hagakure.html

RT

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-18-2005 at 01:31 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:02 PM   #66
"Dubious"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Actually Jean, I was not one of the people blaming the victim in the pizza parlor attack (although he did some stupid stuff leading up to it) and It's quite interesting how easily your feathers get ruffled over a simple question.

It is apparent that you havent been studying Aikido that long and simply blabber Hagakure B.S. like Kane on Kung-Fu. Keep training my friend, it helps wear the edges off...
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Old 03-19-2005, 01:49 PM   #67
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Actually Jean, I was not one of the people blaming the victim in the pizza parlor attack (although he did some stupid stuff leading up to it) and It's quite interesting how easily your feathers get ruffled over a simple question....
As far as I can recall, I wasn't upset about any questions...I guess we see ourselves in others

As far as you not being on the other thread...my mistake. The passive-aggressive attacks and appeals to attack (exampled in the following quote) threw me off.

Quote:
It is apparent that you havent been studying Aikido that long and simply blabber Hagakure B.S. like Kane on Kung-Fu. Keep training my friend, it helps wear the edges off...
Yeah, I've only been training for a few yrs. Interestingly enough, the more I train the more rigid my views become. However, the more I train, the less I care about the weaknesses of others--I'm sure it seems like people become less edgy toward you the more they train

Ron,

For myself, I see the code being very valuable. That the book was associated with militarism by no means devalues it any more than fascism devalues patriotism--in their proper context, they're valuable.

I suppose that for many, Kamikaze pilots wouldn't be a role model. But, I would think you accept Samurai as role models. What's the difference between a soldier who's willing to give his life for his country (the pilots) and a soldier who's willing to give his life for his country (the samurai)?


Now, your positions are typical. Shioda Sensei, in Aikido Shugyo, said that people didn't really practice (something to the effect 'today, people's Aikido is just shells'). Jigoro Kano, said that the Judo that had developed "wasn't my Judo."

I don't think either were referring to the art itself, but the average practitioner.

I also like what Tohei said about people in his book "Ki in Everyday Life." He rips on the American Soldiers for "Death Marches" (he attributes it to American weakness). Then he rips into the Japanese for something.

The point: people are naturally weak--mentally, emotionally and physically. Left to their own devices they'll come up with what ever they can to take the path of least resistance.

To me, your positions are just an example of people taking the low road because it's easier to walk down than to climb up.
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:47 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
But, I would think you accept Samurai as role models.
Hmm, think again, you'd be wrong. I don't play one on tv, or in the dojo.

Quote:
I suppose that for many, Kamikaze pilots wouldn't be a role model. But, I would think you accept Samurai as role models. What's the difference between a soldier who's willing to give his life for his country (the pilots) and a soldier who's willing to give his life for his country (the samurai)?
The two have similarities, I'm sure...and its partially the similarities that make me eshew both. The samurai as a class are not something I wish to emulate. But there are particular individuals in history, some of them samurai, that have specific characteristics I would emulate. Not because they were samurai, though...having done some reading, I can pretty well say I'd make a lousy samurai, and that that fact pleases me to no end.

Quote:
Now, your positions are typical.
Typical of what? I actually see people elavating books like the Hagakure and others to a ridiculous degree and taking them completely out of context as being typical. In my mind, these books become 'empty shells' outside of an understanding of their proper context. I'm glad you can take something worth while (I'm assuming) out of the text. For our illustrious readers, I simply suggest some rather large grains of salt.

Quote:
I don't think either were referring to the art itself, but the average practitioner.
Now *that* I agree with. As still your strictly average practitioner after 10 years of training, my only excuse is that I'm still trying to put cloathes on the Emporer. Or perhaps 'paint the eyes on the paper tiger' would be more apt. If I ever sucseed, I'll let you know

Quote:
To me, your positions are just an example of people taking the low road because it's easier to walk down than to climb up.
Please, explain how so? I actually believe the high road to be one of seeing clearly, putting things in their proper context, and taking the harder path. The easy path is to not train...in anything. The harder path is to show up, get on the mat, and do the work. When it comes to books, the harder path is to read with a skeptical eye, evaluate the context, do some background research, and not base your decisions on 'appeals to authority'. The harder path is to consistantly forge your own path...not blindly follow someone else, without the ability to see any flaws.

But hey, we can take pot shots at each other for ever...some will hit the mark, and others will miss wildly.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-21-2005 at 07:55 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-21-2005, 12:06 PM   #69
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hmm, think again, you'd be wrong. I don't play one on tv, or in the dojo.
Enough said. However, I don't consider adopting the philosophy (or atleast relevant portions) as playing.
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Old 03-21-2005, 12:43 PM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Enough said. However, I don't consider adopting the philosophy (or atleast relevant portions) as playing
Kool. Now perhaps a suggestion for future reference...please note that nowhere in my initial post did I get personal...I gave my opinion and provided two sources for how I shaped that opinion. I have noticed a tendancy to get kind of personal in your posts...is there a particular reason for that?

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-21-2005, 03:52 PM   #71
Fred Little
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Enough said. However, I don't consider adopting the philosophy (or atleast relevant portions) as playing.
Sir, please take the DVD of Ghostdog out of the deck and step away from the home entertainment center with your hands up.

FL
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:25 AM   #72
"guest"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
I am curious about this thread since it is a very similar situation with a fairly well known "sensei" who was the subject of some controversy.

This is complete heresay and not intended to spark debate about the particular sensei but only the "hypothetical" situation. The heresay is that the sensei has said quite clearly on several occassions and to several students that they are not to attend other organizations seminars, especially dojos and seminars associated in any way to the original group.
I am aware of a situation that fits this description. It's interesting to note that the PARENT organization was accused of just this behavior the last time a big group of students split off and started another organization. I think this is a common accusation that can be used to malign someone on the "other" side. If it is going on, it may be either side's attempt to not fan the flames and give things time to simmer down. If in doubt, ask the sensei. If it's not your sensei, it's not your problem. Speculating over motives and hypotheticals on a message board is probably not that helpful (this is not directed to the original poster, but to Anonymous User IP: --.209.112.3, who I quoted). It sort of resembles gossip, more than anything.

Things are complicated, the truth can get mangled in translation. I think the best thing is to pay attention to the circumstances themselves. All accusations aside, if a lot of good people are leaving a particular organization, there might be something wrong with the organization.

In situations like this, a lot of feelings are going to be hurt because everyone is like family. People can lose perspective, and everyone is only human after all. If mean-spiritedness is kept in check, maybe somewhere down the road, friendships can be rekindled.

Last edited by akiy : 03-22-2005 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Removing identifying information regarding organization.
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Old 03-22-2005, 05:21 PM   #73
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Kool. Now perhaps a suggestion for future reference...please note that nowhere in my initial post did I get personal...I gave my opinion and provided two sources for how I shaped that opinion. I have noticed a tendancy to get kind of personal in your posts...is there a particular reason for that?

Ron

I didn't notice. Specify.
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Old 03-22-2005, 05:22 PM   #74
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
Sir, please take the DVD of Ghostdog out of the deck and step away from the home entertainment center with your hands up.

FL

Yeah, that's how I was introduced to the book. However, it's just one book of many that draw me to where I'm at.
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Old 03-22-2005, 09:38 PM   #75
"dubious"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
I am aware of a situation that fits this description. It's interesting to note that the PARENT organization was accused of just this behavior the last time a big group of students split off and started another organization. I think this is a common accusation that can be used to malign someone on the "other" side. If it is going on, it may be either side's attempt to not fan the flames and give things time to simmer down. If in doubt, ask the sensei. If it's not your sensei, it's not your problem. Speculating over motives and hypotheticals on a message board is probably not that helpful (this is not directed to the original poster, but to Anonymous User IP: --.209.112.3, who I quoted). It sort of resembles gossip, more than anything.
Funny you should mention that without mentioning the blatant irony that the PARENT organization we are most likely both speaking about was being lead by this same sensei. Of course, your post didn't resemble gossip at all, thank goodness...
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