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Old 01-30-2005, 08:31 AM   #26
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

If your child (if you don't have one, suppose you did) was planning to do something you didn't approve of and he/she waited until after they got their allowance, do you think that's ok? were they doing something wrong the whole time they were planning?
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:35 AM   #27
"Different Stroke"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
If your child (if you don't have one, suppose you did) was planning to do something you didn't approve of and he/she waited until after they got their allowance, do you think that's ok? were they doing something wrong the whole time they were planning?
So you are saying that most teachers hold back on the shodan because the students may be planning to leave after that.

Jean, are one with the "One truth path"? Having a thought to do something my teacher disproves is also disloyalty. Is this a immoral act? Am I suppose to feel guilty or ashamed?Anyone out there who has gone through this dilemma before, please advise.
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:58 AM   #28
"Different Stroke"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
So you are saying that most teachers hold back on the shodan because the students may be planning to leave after that.

Jean, are one with the "One truth path"? Having a thought to do something my teacher disproves is also disloyalty. Is this a immoral act? Am I suppose to feel guilty or ashamed?Anyone out there who has gone through this dilemma before, please advise.
Jean,

I think LJ has filled in most descriptives regarding my teacher.

I had a friend. His parents wanted him to study law and to become an attorney and later a politician. My friend wanted to become academician, he loved mathematics and physics. He went to the university and managed to graduate with a double degrees, law and science. He never become an attorney; after graduation, he joined a NGO and became a science and maths teacher to children in a third world country. I guessed his parents were disappointed and felt betrayed by their only son. If they knew what he was planning to do, they would not have given him an education..

Regards
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Old 01-30-2005, 11:46 AM   #29
Kevin Kelly
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Joining other aikikai dojo has not been a problem with my teacher, joining other schools of aikido is a BIG problem. If I join another school now, I may never get an Aikikai shodan. Even if I join a Yoshinkan or Iwama-ryu system of the Aikikai, I don't mind starting from scratch, so in my thinking I rather have all (yudansha in Aikikai, Yoshinkan, etc.) or nothing.
If you love doing Aikido, do Aikido. Find the school that is right for you. I guess you could say that I train at an Iwama style dojo, since my sensei trained there for 13 years, but it is not advertised that way. I think it is described as orthodox Aikido. We are recognized by the Aikikai through our association. I don't know why your sensei would turn up his nose at different styles of Aikido, unless as someone else stated, maybe he's affraid of what other people will think of his teaching. I don't know. I'm too new to know much. I hope you figure it out. If you do decide to move to another dojo, talk to the new sensei about your experience in Aikido, and through your training while he is watching you, he will probabely grade you pretty quickly, or might even accept your current grade.
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Old 01-30-2005, 05:24 PM   #30
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
So you are saying that most teachers hold back on the shodan because the students may be planning to leave after that. .
Nope. I wasn't refering to that. I was just asking if the child's actions are honorable or dishonorable.
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Old 01-30-2005, 08:21 PM   #31
David Yap
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Nope. I wasn't refering to that. I was just asking if the child's actions are honorable or dishonorable.
Jean,

In fairness, this is highly subjective and to judge a person's act without knowing all the facts is pretty harsh in my book.

Anonymous's analogy is good example - the one you omitted to comment:

Quote:
I had a friend. His parents wanted him to study law and to become an attorney and later a politician. My friend wanted to become academician, he loved mathematics and physics. He went to the university and managed to graduate with a double degrees, law and science. He never become an attorney; after graduation, he joined a NGO and became a science and maths teacher to children in a third world country. I guessed his parents were disappointed and felt betrayed by their only son. If they knew what he was planning to do, they would not have given him an education..
Regards

David
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Old 02-06-2005, 12:36 PM   #32
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
I had a friend. His parents wanted him to study law and to become an attorney and later a politician. My friend wanted to become academician, he loved mathematics and physics. He went to the university and managed to graduate with a double degrees, law and science. He never become an attorney; after graduation, he joined a NGO and became a science and maths teacher to children in a third world country. I guessed his parents were disappointed and felt betrayed by their only son. If they knew what he was planning to do, they would not have given him an education..

Regards
So he used deception to gain an education. That's the same that you're doing.

As far as this all being "subjective." I thought honesty was a part of the code that we're all following. Once we all agree that that's the code we follow, then all subjectivity is settled. Dishonesty is wrong. Hiding information that may cause you not to get what you want is dishonest.

So is honesty a part of your code or not?
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:28 PM   #33
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Waiting to get your shodan before moving is not worth it if that's the only reason you're still there.
If you like the dojo for other reasons, stay there and train under his rules (after all, it's his house), or find one you prefer & start there.
Whether you move now or wait for your shodan, you might have to start from a reduced grade anyway if you're going to another style: Yoshinkan or Shodokan are different enough from Aikikai that you'd have to relearn a reasonable portion of the cirriculum.
So if you want to go that way, why wait?
The belt's only good for holding the jacket closed. Your level will speak for itself.
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:42 AM   #34
Amir Krause
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

It's a matter of how specific and imminent your planning is. If you are abstractly considering the option of leaving that school and going to another, yet you find your current dojo is giving you so much, you are not willing to leave it yet; then I would say you are in the grey area.

But, if you have come to the point where you have decided you wish to leave, and you are only waiting to get a grade (shodan or whatever). Then I must ask you - why are you still training there ? How can you really learn from a teacher if you have come to the point you mistrust his judgment to this point ?

Amir
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:28 AM   #35
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

I think I can understand Anon's plan to stick around till Shodan under his current instructor.

He/she has invested a lot of time in training under the Aikikai, which is ultimately the organisation who grants and signs his/her grade certificate (not his sensei afaik). The fact is he/she can easily switch to another Aikikai instructor, maintain his Shodan rank once he gets it under the current guy (instead of going to another Aikikai dojo and taking a longer time), still practice Aikikai if he wants to, but be sure to choose his next Instructor (probably Aikikai) as one who is open to cross training in other styles. This way he retains rank and gets to cross train without experiencing whatever negative aspects there may be from not cross training as per his current instructor's conditions. It is possible that Anon may want to instruct one day and as such is unwilling to just discard whatever rank he currently has under Aikikai, but at the same time does not want to be limited in his/her own training options.

It's a matter of separating the Organisation from one's immediate instructor in a sense. One is given Dan grade by the organisation, but one can change teachers within that organisation and still retain organisational rank to get the benefits of training under other instructors.

Makes sense to me, as long as Anon is able to deal with his current instructor until such time that Shodan is awarded. As Stuart says, The belt's only good for holding the jacket closed. Your level will speak for itself. Or my personal fave - The Belt only covers 2 inches of your butt, the rest you gotta back up with skill.

Happy training all.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:54 AM   #36
bryce_montgomery
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

I guess the best advice I could give you would be to just ask your instructor...Explain your reasoning and see how he reacts. If he is a donkey about then you have to look at a few factors...whether you should stay, cause his teaching is the best around, or leave completely...This would be only if he reacted poorly to your direction. If he doesn't mind the idea then you have your answer...or if he gives you a good reason not to then decide then...Just ask...

I believe that a good teacher would let you do what you want if you have a reason for it...

But that's just my thought.

Bryce
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:53 PM   #37
MitchMZ
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

My instructor encourages me to seek all the martial arts training I can. He LOVES to see me attend seminars, whether they are different styles or not. I think in the end, someone who has exposure to many styles of Aikido or martial arts in general will tend to be much wiser martially. I pay my dues and give my instructor my time, and he gives me his. Students are the key factor in a dojo's success.
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Old 02-08-2005, 05:13 PM   #38
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

It sounds like you are aware of your sensei's feelings regarding this matter so I don't feel trying to change his mind is in your best interest. If you do not like his/her policy then you need to make the decision of whether or not you wish to stay or leave. If you stay you should adhere to your sensei's wishes about training outside of the given style. To do otherwise would be behing disloyal and dishonest.

David mentioned the relationship between the sensei and student being different if the student is paying for instruction as it is a vendor client relationship. I don't know if I completely understand what David was saying but I don't think there is a vendo client relationship, as most would understand it.

Budo is still budo. Although students may pay a fee to their sensei or dojo it does not afford them the owners box. The student is not the employer. The customer is not always right.

That being said, I encourage students to train in whatever style they would like, with whomever they like. (Though I do have an opinion or two about a couple of the locals but that isn't for this thread.) I insist that students try class out before making a financial commitment and do not use contracts. I let them know that if they are unhappy or decide they need a break or want to go train another style or with a different teacher they are free to do so and that I am perfectly ok with whatever they decide and that if they desire to return they are welcome to do so as well.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 02-10-2005, 04:20 AM   #39
"Different Strokes"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
He/she has invested a lot of time in training under the Aikikai, which is ultimately the organisation who grants and signs his/her grade certificate (not his sensei afaik). The fact is he/she can easily switch to another Aikikai instructor, maintain his Shodan rank once he gets it under the current guy (instead of going to another Aikikai dojo and taking a longer time), still practice Aikikai if he wants to, but be sure to choose his next Instructor (probably Aikikai) as one who is open to cross training in other styles. This way he retains rank and gets to cross train without experiencing whatever negative aspects there may be from not cross training as per his current instructor's conditions. It is possible that Anon may want to instruct one day and as such is unwilling to just discard whatever rank he currently has under Aikikai, but at the same time does not want to be limited in his/her own training options.

It's a matter of separating the Organisation from one's immediate instructor in a sense. One is given Dan grade by the organisation, but one can change teachers within that organisation and still retain organisational rank to get the benefits of training under other instructors.

Makes sense to me, as long as Anon is able to deal with his current instructor until such time that Shodan is awarded. As Stuart says, The belt's only good for holding the jacket closed. Your level will speak for itself. Or my personal fave - The Belt only covers 2 inches of your butt, the rest you gotta back up with skill.
Hi LC,

You read me like a book . I agree too with Stuart, hence the need of knowledge and x-training to enhance ones skill.

Thanks for posts.
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Old 02-10-2005, 04:35 AM   #40
"Different Strokes"
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
So he used deception to gain an education. That's the same that you're doing.

As far as this all being "subjective." I thought honesty was a part of the code that we're all following. Once we all agree that that's the code we follow, then all subjectivity is settled. Dishonesty is wrong. Hiding information that may cause you not to get what you want is dishonest.

So is honesty a part of your code or not?
Thanks Jean for all your advice. Unfortunately your advice were either black or white, shades of grey apparently are not permissible in your books. Either that or you just post for the sake of posting without reading the fine lines.

My friend did indeed obtained a degree with honors in law plus the degree in the discipline he loved. Upon graduation, he chose honesty to himself and loving something that he loved and he could be successful in.

What would you do in his place? What would you do if you were his parent? Sorry subjectivity is not in your books either.
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:01 AM   #41
Bridge
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Anon,

Without wishing to cast aspersions etc...
Doesn't it make you wonder WHY the instructor doesn't want you to have a look elsewhere?

What are they hiding?!

Also the story of the guy whose parents wanted him to be an attorney and became a teacher reminds me of a story my mum told me of an old colleague of hers years ago. This guy's parents wanted him to become a doctor (he didn't want to) but he trained as one anyway and became a doctor perhaps he thought it would be OK, who can say? Not many years later he committed suicide (in his workplace) and close friends suspected it was to do with that. If he had put his foot down at some point and made the changes sooner, perhaps he would be alive? Quite an extreme case.

Besides we start out with the best intentions, but people grow, change and learn new things.
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Old 02-11-2005, 11:55 AM   #42
Adam Alexander
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Thanks Jean for all your advice. Unfortunately your advice were either black or white, shades of grey apparently are not permissible in your books.
Seems like the only thing that makes black and white turn to grey is the consequences of one's actions. Change the reward from "getting your black belt" to "missing tonights dinner" and all of the sudden it's no longer a "shade of grey."

What you call a "shade of grey" is simply a matter of "I don't want to face the consequences of doing the right thing" in my eyes.

I'd go so far as to bet that, in your heart, you know I'm right. The only reason that you posted was that you were hoping for others to tell you that what you're talking about doing is ok.

Live by a higher standard. It's that simple.
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Old 02-11-2005, 12:26 PM   #43
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Live by a higher standard. It's that simple.
I agree with this. It depends on what you are looking for in your training Anon. The question is what do you want to get out of Aikido and what is the priority?

If the standard you are currently living by does not serve your personal need or requirements then I suggest you change it.

Above all else to thine own self be true. The only person you have to live with for the rest of your life is you.

Hope you decide soon and happy training to all.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:17 AM   #44
James Lavin
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
I belong to an aikikai organization and have been training for quite a while. I have also wanted to train other schools of aikido simultaneous with my present aikikai style to broad my knowledge and hopefully my skill as well. The problem is - my teacher will never permit it. I have not asked him yet but I know he will not as even the utter of Iwama-ryu brings disgust to his face. At one time, someone gave me a brochure of a Yoshinkan school that was nicely done which I then passed to him to have a look. Without a glance, he threw it into the waste-paper basket obvious to the rest of the class.

As I have invested much time and money thus far, I jeopardize my prospect of getting a shodan by being kicked out the Aikikai dojo if I am caught training in another style. Does it mean I am being disloyal to my teacher and Aikikai? I know I am not but how can I convince my teacher?


if you are paying then you have a right to go where you want

when i was teaching i told my students to go to other dojo s and learn
but do as that sensei says and not talk about where i train and it is done that way or this way

go for it

j
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Old 02-23-2005, 07:27 AM   #45
"Different Stroke"
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Honesty and the truth of the matter

Hi all,

So I finally took the risk of being "expelled" from Aikikai by attempting to live by a higher standard as advised by Jean; I told my teacher about my intention to train in other schools of aikido and my reasons for doing so. I was expecting the "Go and don't ever come back" response. To my pleasure, it didn't come at all.

But, I have to make him a promise not to follow the Iwama-ryu school. I can train but I cannot take grade or instruct in that style. He told me about a previous student of his doing that and it caused him to lose face with his teacher in Hombu dojo - a very senior Shihan. He has had made the promise of not training Iwama-ryu to this shihan but he didn't know that the promise should be passed down to his own students. I enquired why, why not Iwama-ryu? But he wouldn't tell me.

I did some search and found some articles relating to this shihan and to Iwama-ryu. All I can gather is that this shihan and the late Saito sensei could never see eye to eye. I always thought that in the oriental culture (being a buddhist myself) all grudges and differences with another are buried with ones demise. Perhaps, some of you may know which shihan I am refering to and why the deep grudges? Has this shihan any thing to do with Hirohito Saito sensei's split with Aikikai?

I do apologise for my "speculative" questions. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Different Stroke
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Old 02-23-2005, 07:55 AM   #46
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Hi Anon,

It's interesting to hear that your sensei would single out Iwama as a school to not train in and moreso ask that you promise not to grade or become an instructor there. It seems to me like he is taking a personal issue that he has with a Shihan and extending it to apply to anyone that trains in Aikido with him as well. It's like extending a lineage legacy of divisiveness in my personal opinion.

Personally I think this is sad. I have a few instructors that I would recommend my students not train at for different reasons, but if they decide to go regardless of my promptings and they indeed learn something that I was unable to teach them, then who am I to judge? I think this way of thinking stunts one's personal development as a human being (not to mention as an Aikidoka) to be quite honest, and propagating/forcing this way of thinking upon others without too much of an explanation as to why the issue is there or even give his students a choice is even more ridiculous imho.

But that's just me.

Hope it all works out for you in the end.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:21 AM   #47
happysod
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Hi Anon,

As you've effectively got what you wanted, the ability to train at other dojo's without leaving your current one, I'd personally be avoiding the politics behind the rather strange caveat like the plague. Enjoy the training.

Larry, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read anons missive to mean that his senseis shihan was the one imposing a Iwama-grade ban?

(repeats mantra of no ego in aikido, somehow doesn't manage to keep a straight face...)
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:38 AM   #48
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Larry, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read anons missive to mean that his senseis shihan was the one imposing a Iwama-grade ban?
Hi Ian,

I'm not sure myself, maybe Anon can describe better, but this is how it sounded to me.

Quote:
But, I have to make him a promise not to follow the Iwama-ryu school. I can train but I cannot take grade or instruct in that style. He told me about a previous student of his doing that and it caused him to lose face with his teacher in Hombu dojo - a very senior Shihan.
This says that Anon's Sensei had another student who wanted to train and grade in other styles like Anon does and did so in Iwama and as a result caused Anon's Sensei to lose face with his own teacher who is the Shihan at Hombu.

Quote:
He (Anon's sensei) has had made the promise of not training Iwama-ryu to this shihan but he didn't know that the promise should be passed down to his own students.
This indicates that Anon's sensei had promised to this Shihan to not train and grade in Iwama style, however it appears in the second highlighted line that Anon's Sensei at the time had not known that the promise he made to the Hombu Shihan applied to all his potential future students and not just himself. In other words he maybe did not realise that when he made the promise to his Shihan he had in fact made a pact to propagate the Shihan's issues with Iwama to all of his future students as well.

Quote:
(repeats mantra of no ego in aikido, somehow doesn't manage to keep a straight face...)
Lol yeah, see this is why we need an inter-style embu and shiai competition in Aikido. To keep some of those egos in check.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 02-23-2005, 01:42 PM   #49
"Anonymous"
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Re: Honesty and the truth of the matter

Quote:
Hi all,

So I finally took the risk of being "expelled" from Aikikai by attempting to live by a higher standard as advised by Jean; I told my teacher about my intention to train in other schools of aikido and my reasons for doing so. I was expecting the "Go and don't ever come back" response. To my pleasure, it didn't come at all.

But, I have to make him a promise not to follow the Iwama-ryu school. I can train but I cannot take grade or instruct in that style. He told me about a previous student of his doing that and it caused him to lose face with his teacher in Hombu dojo - a very senior Shihan. He has had made the promise of not training Iwama-ryu to this shihan but he didn't know that the promise should be passed down to his own students. I inquired why, why not Iwama-ryu? But he wouldn't tell me.

I did some search and found some articles relating to this shihan and to Iwama-ryu. All I can gather is that this shihan and the late Saito sensei could never see eye to eye. I always thought that in the oriental culture (being a Buddhist myself) all grudges and differences with another are buried with ones demise. Perhaps, some of you may know which shihan I am referring to and why the deep grudges? Has this shihan any thing to do with Hirohito Saito sensei's split with Aikikai?

I do apologize for my "speculative" questions. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Different Stroke
I was having a conversation recently with my sensei. He trained for a while under the late Saito Sensei. He said some people were kicked out of the Iwama dojo because they were AHoles if you get my meaning. These were some high ranking individuals too. Intentionally hurting people and that sort of thing. The Aholes came out of the woodwork after he died and started some backstabbing on his son. That is probably why a his son has his own dojo now. They wouldn't have dared to say anything when his father was alive.
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Old 02-23-2005, 01:52 PM   #50
akiy
 
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Re: Training in other schools of aikido

Please -- let's keep criticisms of specific organizations and instructors out of this thread -- especially from those who are remaining anonymous. Thanks.

-- Jun

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