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Old 04-20-2001, 11:56 AM   #26
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Re: Time for shodan ?

Quote:
Originally posted by JJF
One more thing: It might be, that kyudo gradings can be 'speeded up' a bit for westernes practicing for a while in Japan in order to inspire the students to continue practicing when they come home, and to give them a sign of 'quality' making it easier for them to start teaching in their home country.
I think it's just sped up in general, or, we're slowed down and held back. I've heard rumors that the promotional requirements will be slimmed down in the near future, at least in the Aikikai world that I'm a part of. Trying to keep pace with Japan as I heard it described. My source was good, but the detail I got wasn't so I don't have much to add on that.

Ubaldo, that was a very interesting email. Thank you for posting it here.

There were a couple of things I did like about the site and the email. He calls himself Karl and the way he describes dojo etiquette (on his site) had a perspective that I could appreciate. Interesting guy.
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Old 04-20-2001, 12:17 PM   #27
lt-rentaroo
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Posts: 237
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Jim, good to hear from you.

I agree with what you write, the larger dojo do seem to promote based on "time in grade" more so than on quality of technique or knowledge of the art. I've met folks who have trained at larger dojo and have achieved significant rank that do not understand some of the most basic principles. Of course, I've witnessed the same from small dojo as well. I guess it all depends on the teacher.

I suppose the almighty dollar will always reign supreme, it's a real shame. I was fortunate enough to have joined a dojo that didn't care about the money. I remember a six month period of time while I was in college when I was unable to pay my dojo tuition. My Sensei said don't worry about it, I'll just toss your around more than the others. It seemed like a an OK deal to me, and it's one that I use now that I'm teaching (the understanding part, not the throwing part). The money doesnt' matter to me, what matters is watching the students learn a new technique and being able to use that technique under less than happy situations. Well, I'll get off my soapbox now. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-20-2001, 03:35 PM   #28
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Cool QUESTIONS ON GRADING

Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
My question though is as follows. Should people be promoted to a higher rank only because they have spent a specified number of hours or months training, or should they be promoted to a higher rank because they have successfully demonstrated knowledge of the art and its techniques?

KAMI : You're right...until a given dan. Most organizations test for grading until 3rd or 4th dan. From then on, ranking is more concerned with services given to the art and time spent on the art than technical expertise testing. As Geis Sensei says, at 6th Dan, you are tested and aproved. All dan rankings from them on are given for other reasons...

Ubaldo - Sounds like a pretty good offer, I'd go for it.

KAMI : It is, isn't it?

Have a good Day!
KAMI : You too!

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 04-21-2001, 11:22 AM   #29
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
I was fortunate enough to have joined a dojo that didn't care about the money. I remember a six month period of time while I was in college when I was unable to pay my dojo tuition. My Sensei said don't worry about it, I'll just toss your around more than the others.
It's a pity more dojos aren't like that. I wish Greg's dojo would adopt that type of attitude, but somehow I don't think they will change their fee policy for anyone, regardless of their financian situation. Talk about inflexible.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-21-2001, 12:12 PM   #30
lt-rentaroo
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Jim,

Are you referring to Mr. Greg Jenning's dojo located in the fine southern city of Montgomery, Alabama? I agree, they should be more flexible with their payment options, not everyone can afford to train at a dojo that is 100% free I had the wonderful opportunity to train with them while I was in Montgomery, they are the real deal. I'm really suprised that they don't have people knocking down the doors to get in. OK, enough shameless plugs for Capital City Aikido in Montgomery, Alabama.

Sorry Jun

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-21-2001, 01:14 PM   #31
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
I'm really suprised that they don't have people knocking down the doors to get in.
Louis,

Maybe it's because Greg throws people around a lot or that you first have to get past Greg to train.

AlAbamA, Hmmmm.

No need to apologize about the plug -- it's not a commercial dojo (what's a 15% referral fee of nothing?).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-24-2001, 03:37 AM   #32
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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KARL GEIS SENSEI AND THE FUGAKUKAI


Dear all,

Since some people have questioned the name of Karl Geis in my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha (and many know nothing about him), perhaps it will be interesting to read this text :
http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm
There's a story of the founding of the Fugakukai and its links to Tomiki Aikido (Shodokan).
Good read

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 04-24-2001, 03:45 AM   #33
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Re: KARL GEIS SENSEI AND THE FUGAKUKAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami

Dear all,

Since some people have questioned the name of Karl Geis in my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha (and many know nothing about him), perhaps it will be interesting to read this text :

Em... didn't his story get explained within this thread?

andrew
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Old 04-24-2001, 01:22 PM   #34
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Question Re: Re: KARL GEIS SENSEI AND THE FUGAKUKAI

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
Em... didn't his story get explained within this thread?
andrew
KAMI : I don't think so. His name and his rank has been discussed but I don't think his story was.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-12-2001, 03:57 PM   #35
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
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Re: Re: SAVENAGO SENSEI???

Hi all!!, this is my first time in this forum hehe

Just want to say that there are no 8th or 9th Dan of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei in italy, there are just two 7th Dans which are Savegnago Sensei and Suriano Sensei (i met them two months ago it was AMAZING!!).

Kami the URL you wanted: www.aikido.it
go to "chi siamo" and you'll find a biography of H. Kobayashi and Savegano Sensei.

Arrivederci
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Old 05-13-2001, 07:00 AM   #36
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Unhappy Re: Re: Re: SAVEGNAGO SENSEI???

Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
Hi all!
Just want to say that there are no 8th or 9th Dan of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei in italy, there are just two 7th Dans which are Savegnago Sensei and Suriano Sensei (i met them two months ago it was AMAZING!!).
Kami the URL you wanted: www.aikido.it
go to "chi siamo" and you'll find a biography of H. Kobayashi and Savegano Sensei.
Arrivederci
KAMI : Grazie, Fausto!
I already knew that URL but,as you may observe, it gives no information on Savegnago Sensei's ranking nor from what organization it does come from.
Since you have met them recently, could you be so kind to give me contact with them and more information on Suriano Sensei? There's an e-mail in the URL you sent but it does not answer.
Any help would be very welcome.
Best regards and good keiko

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-13-2001, 09:14 AM   #37
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
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Posts: 81
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Cool Re: Re: Re: Re: SAVEGNAGO SENSEI???

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : Grazie, Fausto!
I already knew that URL but,as you may observe, it gives no information on Savegnago Sensei's ranking nor from what organization it does come from.
Since you have met them recently, could you be so kind to give me contact with them and more information on Suriano Sensei? There's an e-mail in the URL you sent but it does not answer.
Any help would be very welcome.
Best regards and good keiko


Hi there!.
Even if in that URL does not say wich Dan is Savegnago Sensei (thing that i doubt hehe but everything is possible ) i can tell you for sure that he's a 7th Dan and also Suriano Sensei is a 7th Dan.

About the organization they (and me too hehe) belong it's not very sure cuz here's the problem: with the premature death of H. Kobayashi Sensei the head-master in the Osaka dojo and for the Bu Iku Kai organization is Kimura Sensei 8th Dan but lately the Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba talked with Kimura Sensei and they made an agreement wich is that the Bu Iku Kai is now part of Aikikai but for example here in italy we (Bu Iku Kai style practitioners) don't belong to the aikikai, we don't have any certification of the Italian Aikikai therefore is not clear if we are aikikai or not but i'll do a little research ok and i'll tell you which are the conclusions.
I'll see what i can do to put you in contact with Savegnago Sensei, maybe i'll have the chance to talk with him this month cuz maybe his coming to our dojo (I HOPE HE DOES!! :d), and i can tell you that Suriano Sensei teaches in South Italy, in Catania i'll see what i can do to give you as much information about him as i can.

Goog keiko and Arrivederci!!!




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Old 05-13-2001, 10:13 AM   #38
PeterR
 
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Japan
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That's interesting. Kobayahi H. was on eof the most senior Aikikai Shihan. How can his students not be Aikikai?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-13-2001, 11:36 AM   #39
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
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Cool SAVEGNAGO SENSEI

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
That's interesting. Kobayahi H. was on eof the most senior Aikikai Shihan. How can his students not be Aikikai?
KAMI : I'll try to clarify this and other points when I make contact with Savegnago Sensei. I seem to remember someone told me that Kobayashi Sensei didn't register his students' rank with the Aikikai and after his death things got a bit confused. That's why I would like very much if Fausto could put me in contact with Savegnago Sensei.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-13-2001, 03:09 PM   #40
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
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Re: SAVEGNAGO SENSEI

Kami untill i contact Savegnago Sensei you can go here: http://www.aikido.it/Maestri/SavegnaG.htm

I hope to clarify this enigma soon! hehe

Arrivederci
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Old 05-16-2001, 01:07 PM   #41
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Re: LIST OF HIGH RANKING YUDANSHA

Ladies and Gentlemen,
This is our up-date to our List (thanks to the help afforded by many friends) :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki -- Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka -- Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet -- Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H.Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (Born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts -- Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker -- Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier -- Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize -- Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo -- Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis -- Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite -- Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace -- Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West -- Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence -- Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg -- Aikikai,NY(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################
(1) Some changes were : W.W.McNeese was retired from the list, since he passed away, according to information supplied by Karl E. Geis Sensei;
(2) Patrick Augé Sensei was incorrectly posted as an 8th Dan. One of his students pointed out that he is a 7th Dan. The information has been double-checked;
(3) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(4) Donald Moriyama Sensei has been posted as a Ki-Aikido practitioner. I was corrected by Gregg Jennings and have changed him to its
correct place at the Aikikai;
(5) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.
Thank you very much
Ubaldo.


Last edited by Kami : 05-24-2001 at 12:32 PM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-16-2001, 02:16 PM   #42
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
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Re: Re: LIST OF HIGH RANKING YUDANSHA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami

(4) Donald Moriyama Sensei has been posted as a Ki-Aikido practitioner. I was corrected by Gregg Jennings and have changed him to its
correct place at the Aikikai;
That would be "Greg" Jennings .

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-16-2001, 03:00 PM   #43
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
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Re: Re: Re: LIST OF HIGH RANKING YUDANSHA

Hi Kami here's how things are:

Savegnago Sensei is 7th Dan Bu Iku Kai.
The Bu Iku Kai is the assosiations created by H. Kobayashi Sensei in Europe. With the death of H. Kobayashi Sensei Savegnago Sensei did his own assosiation (A.I.A.) and Piero Suriano Sensei (7th Dan) carries on with the Bu Iku Kai Italy.
Therefore Savegnago Sensei does not have an Aikikai certification (unfortunatly i was not able to talk with Savegnago Sensei due to his appointmetns but i'll do my best!).

Arrivederci
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Old 05-16-2001, 03:33 PM   #44
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Unhappy Re: RETIFICATION OF THE RETIFICATION

Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
That would be "Greg" Jennings .
Regards,
KAMI : My capacity to blunder is boundless...

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-16-2001, 03:36 PM   #45
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Re: LIST OF HIGH RANKING YUDANSHA

Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
Savegnago Sensei is 7th Dan Bu Iku Kai.
With the death of H. Kobayashi Sensei Savegnago Sensei did his own assosiation (A.I.A.) and Piero Suriano Sensei (7th Dan) carries on with the Bu Iku Kai Italy.
Arrivederci
KAMI : Carry on, my friend! And by the way, I've got two questions :
a) When you mention the A.I.A., are you refering to the Aikido Association International, of Toyoda Sensei or to some other association ? And if so, what is the complete name of that association; and
b) Do you have a URL or some contact with Piero (Pietro ?) Suriano Sensei?
Thank you very much

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-17-2001, 06:49 AM   #46
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LIST OF HIGH RANKING YUDANSHA

Hehe, nope the A.I.A. is the Italian Aikido Association created by Savegnago Sensei.

The answer for your second question is no
Piero Suriano Sensei lives in catania (south italy) and i don't know if he has an URL but i'll search for it

When i ask my Sensei if Savegano Sensei had an aikikai certification he told me "from what i know he hasn't but maybe at his last trip to japan (3 months ago) he got an aikikai certification cuz in japan the Bu Iku Kai is considered part of the Aikikai". Because of this i don't want to say that Savegnago Sensei doesn't have an Aikikai certification, untill I talk with him, but he does have a Bu Iku Kai (as i said before the Bu Iku Kai is the association created by H. Kobayashi Sensei here in Europe) certification.

Arrivederci y cuidense muchachos(as) hehe

P.S. What about André Cognar Sensei? his an 8th Dan of the Bu Iku Kai. He's also a direct student of H. Kobayashi Sensei (he married his doughter!! hehe). He lives in France.
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Old 05-23-2001, 12:25 PM   #47
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: RETIFICATION OF THE RETIFICATION

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : My capacity to blunder is boundless...
Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-23-2001, 01:33 PM   #48
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23

Louis,
Maybe it's because Greg throws people around a lot or that you first have to get past Greg to train.

AlAbamA, Hmmmm.

No need to apologize about the plug -- it's not a commercial dojo (what's a 15% referral fee of nothing?).

Jim23
Thanks for the plugs guys. I appreciate it very much. As this happens to pertain to some things that are going on right now, I wanted to add a few things.

o Ron Myers Sensei and I run the dojo together. He's the instructor, I'm the secretary. I take a lot of the trivia off Myers Sensei and he's bringing me along. It seems to work pretty well.

o Our stance on having no fees of any kind is allowed by a fortunate circumstance. If we were in a different situation, we would have to find a way to cover the rent.

o The 100% free deal hasn't made much of a difference in the number of students. Also, very competent aikido friends of mine tell me that what we're doing will actually hurt rather than help.

o One nice thing about it, though, is that we train the way we want to train without regard to how popular it is. So, while we don't abuse the students, and they don't have to get past me to train, we do train hard and not many people stick around for the long haul. I guess tough training and a fun atmosphere weirds them out.

o We do train hard and we do a lot more breakfalls that the average aikido dojo. But, we've had very few injuries. We've had only one student leave the dojo over being roughly thrown (by another new student).

Enough rambling.

Best Regards,


Greg Jennings
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Old 05-26-2001, 08:21 AM   #49
aikilouis
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Regarding Michel Soulenq : according to my information, he is not associated with Aikikai. I don't know who gave him his 7th dan, but you'll probably find more info in his independant association site (www.aiki.org).

Louis R Joseph
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Old 05-26-2001, 09:04 AM   #50
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Smile MICHEL SOULENQ

Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
Regarding Michel Soulenq : according to my information, he is not associated with Aikikai. I don't know who gave him his 7th dan, but you'll probably find more info in his independant association site (www.aiki.org).
Louis R Joseph
KAMI : Merci beaucoup, mon cher ami!
I have a video from Soulenq (1994)in which he presents himself as an aikikai affiliate. I'm trying to contact him through the website you sent me. If you get further information, please let me know. Thanks for your help.
Amitié
Ubaldo.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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