Breathing Exercise and Meditation

Ted Ehara wrote: I would have to assume it is K. Tohei.

Can anyone point me to a reference in which Tohei espouses letting the chin out, please? Thanks.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: Can anyone point me to a reference in which Tohei espouses letting the chin out, please? Thanks. Mike

K. Tohei suggested sitting in seiza to do ki meditation in Book of Ki. People sit in seiza everyday and never tuck in their chin. Sitting cross-leg or sitting in a chair are other ways you can do ki meditation. The idea is to relax and sit naturally. These different ways of sitting are all subject to ki tests.

When you take some formal posture, you usually introduce some tension in the body. This makes it hard to pass a ki test. During one period, K. Tohei was ki testing zen priests in Japan. I heard none of them passed. I believe their practice of taking a formal posture had much to do with this.

Further information on ki meditation can be found in Ki : A Road That Anyone Can Walk and Ki : A Practical Guide to Westerners by William Reed.

Ted Ehara wrote: K. Tohei suggested sitting in seiza to do ki meditation in Book of Ki. People sit in seiza everyday and never tuck in their chin. Sitting cross-leg or sitting in a chair are other ways you can do ki meditation. The idea is to relax and sit naturally. These different ways of sitting are all subject to ki tests.

Hmmmmm. Now we're into the almost unavoidable mixing of the difference between "Ki" and "Kokyu", Ted. One thing I'm sort of interested in now is to talk to someone like Tohei or a disciple of his who is demonstrably an accurate follower of Tohei's methodology and beliefs. There's is a minor problem, as I've noted before, in calling the let's say "solidity" you feel when pushing Tohei's forearm "Ki". It's technically an offshoot of the general idea of Ki, but it's misleading to continually refer to it as "Ki". What I'm wondering is "who is off-base in this definition... the followers of Tohei or Tohei himself?". In other words, has Tohei essentially taken "Ki" and made a definition that has a shade of removal from the original concept, or if I talked to Tohei himself and I discussed the standard differences between "Ki" and this "solidity", would he say "of course!", indicating that the error is among some of his folllowers? As I've said before, these things actually have a pretty rigid logic to them and it's difficult to get away with personal interpretations once you fix into any part of the algorithm of Ki.

When you take some formal posture, you usually introduce some tension in the body. This makes it hard to pass a ki test. During one period, K. Tohei was ki testing zen priests in Japan. I heard none of them passed. I believe their practice of taking a formal posture had much to do with this.

What you just said is a prime example of the misunderstanding of what "Ki" is, that I mentioned above, Ted. There is a real and demonstrable reason why the chin is tucked in for development of actual Ki, not the "solidity" portion of "kokyu" that you're calling "ki".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: ...What you just said is a prime example of the misunderstanding of what "Ki" is, that I mentioned above, Ted. There is a real and demonstrable reason why the chin is tucked in for development of actual Ki, not the "solidity" portion of "kokyu" that you're calling "ki". Regards, Mike Sigman

Then "What is a real and demonstrable reason why the chin is tucked in for development of actual Ki?". What is your definition of ki and kokyu? How are they different in the above instance?

Ki wars?

Ted Ehara wrote: Then "What is a real and demonstrable reason why the chin is tucked in for development of actual Ki?". What is your definition of ki and kokyu? How are they different in the above instance?

Well, wait a minute, Ted. Before I get dragged into explaining something that will take me forever to write and even then might not be clear to someone just reading it, let's re-focus on the question that I originally asked..... WHERE does Tohei say that the chin should not be tucked in? In what book, speech, etc.? That was what I asked. Your reply was:

K." Tohei suggested sitting in seiza to do ki meditation in Book of Ki. People sit in seiza everyday and never tuck in their chin. Sitting cross-leg or sitting in a chair are other ways you can do ki meditation. The idea is to relax and sit naturally. "


That doesn't show Tohei saying to relax such that the chin goes forward, so before we start a discussion of why the chin comes in, let's deal with first things first.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: That doesn't show Tohei saying to relax such that the chin goes forward, so before we start a discussion of why the chin comes in, let's deal with first things first. Mike

I would like to see you guys demonstrate in person what you mean by "chin tucked in" or "chin out",

otherwise I am staying out of this discussion.


Mike, you could come to the national conference in June in Las Vegas and ask Tohei Sensei's son.

personally my chin is where it is so I don't create tension.
oops
Craig

Craig Hocker wrote: I would like to see you guys demonstrate in person what you mean by "chin tucked in" or "chin out", otherwise I am staying out of this discussion. Mike, you could come to the national conference in June in Las Vegas and ask Tohei Sensei's son. personally my chin is where it is so I don't create tension. oops Craig

The conference idea is tempting, although I am in the middle of a novel that takes place in Las Vegas and I just privately swore to myself that I would never go there again. Is there a URL with some info? I'll look at it.

The question I was asking was in response to the idea that Tohei directly promulgated the "chin not held in" idea. That is what interested me about Ted's remark and why I asked the question.

In regard to "not creating tension", that's sort of in line with my comments somewhere previously about what "relax" really means. To someone who has practiced a given posture, for example, he will feel that he is "relaxed" while a beginner to that posture might feel some strain and tension. I.e., the idea of "relax" is actually subjective; if you're really relaxed, you would crumple to the floor. So there is always a certain amount of tension, even if you personally indicate that you try to avoid tension. The other side of the coin is that some tension is actually desirable and a "good" posture may include as much tension as is required to sustain that posture. I think you see the point, so I won't belabor it more than necessary. Tucking the chin in serves a purpose... that's why I was curious if Tohei actually was on record somewhere to get rid of that particular item.

FWIW

Mike

Craig Hocker wrote: so I don't create tension.

so I don't create "added" tension

so I don't create "unecessary" tension

etc.


Information on Las Vegas conference
Ki Society USA 2005 Conference

Craig Hocker wrote: Information on Las Vegas conference Ki Society USA 2005 Conference

Thanks. I looked at it and it seems to be an in-house presentation for the inculcated. If it was more of an "exposition", I'd probably consider it. I'm daring like that.

Mike

Ian Dodkins wrote: Generally I go for in thru nose, push breath down into hara whilst expanding stomach, and as you breath out thru mouth you push stomach forward more (into centre).

Let me know if I get it right?

"inhale, expanding stomach; exhale, push stomach out more."

How can you expand your stomach indefinitely? At some time point, either at beginning of inhale or end of exhale you have to put stomach back to normal?

hungary mind wants to know.

Roosvelt Freeman wrote: How can you expand your stomach indefinitely? At some time point, either at beginning of inhale or end of exhale you have to put stomach back to normal?

That's because they count ten breaths and then start over.

The trick with expanding and contracting is it looks like belly dancing.

1. Focus on your belt knot, or your pants strap where your Hara is.
2. Expand at that point to inhale sitting straight.
3. Allow your lower stomach to expand all the way and let the expansion move all the way to the top of your chest, like a wave so you get the maximum amount of oxygen, leaning back and tilting your head back helps.
4. Return to straight position and hold for two or three seconds to allow the oxygen time to saturate your lung lining.
5. Start exhaling from your Hara pushing your stomach out to a point of tension so the oxygen clears out beginning at the top of your lungs due to the effect of your Hara.
6. Slowly your contraction should make it down to your Hara (remember, like a belly dancer) so that your stomach tenses contracted completly
7. Lean forward to help completly clear out carbon.
8. Return to sitting straight holding for two or three seconds.
9. Repeat

Remember to move your muscles like a wave, or a Snake.

Trevor Wolfe wrote: 3. Allow your lower stomach to expand all the way and let the expansion move all the way to the top of your chest, like a wave so you get the maximum amount of oxygen, leaning back and tilting your head back helps.

I see. Here you pull down your diaphram and let air fill the lung.

Trevor Wolfe wrote: 5. Start exhaling from your Hara pushing your stomach out to a point of tension so the oxygen clears out beginning at the top of your lungs due to the effect of your Hara.

Here you push up your diaphram to purge the air out of your lung.

Basically, you keep your chest normal, push your stomach out to a ball shape, and use your stomach muslce to move your diaphram up and down to breath.

Thanks. It makes perfect sense.

Peter Rehse wrote: Ki wars?

Thanks, I really needed that today...

-Doug

After reading the basic breathing instructions, check out my thread "Zazen Meditation, Haragei and Focus". Oh, and don't forget, in through nose, out through mouth. Tense up the throat a bit, as has been said before you should sound a bit like Darth Vader. This is so you can prolong your breath.