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Old 01-25-2005, 04:08 PM   #1
Dark Samurai
 
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MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Hello,this is my first post,my english isnt excelent so sorry for misspelling.I have been trainig aikido(shin shin toitsu) for 2 years and curently 4 kyu;hopfully soon 3kyu.How do you think about training aikido with other martial arts such as boxing,mt,bjj?We train twice a week aikido and our sensei has recently started traing with young students a little bit of all.He trained a lot of martial arts,yoga etc.

Last edited by Dark Samurai : 01-25-2005 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:38 PM   #2
Greg Jennings
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Hi Igor,

Welcome to AikiWeb. I hope your 3rd kyu goes well.

My take on cross training aikido with other arts is that it is a great idea. I do think that it's best to get your feet on the ground in one art before undertaking another.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:45 PM   #3
Dark Samurai
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Hi Igor,

Welcome to AikiWeb. I hope your 3rd kyu goes well.

My take on cross training aikido with other arts is that it is a great idea. I do think that it's best to get your feet on the ground in one art before undertaking another.

Best regards,
You are wright,but we are just doing the basics of boxing for now and same MT push kicks and knees. I dont think aikido can be so efectieve against good boxer(only if you are been training for about 10-15 years) And I am not saying thet aikido doesent work against professional fighters but some people is hard to catch in nikiyo or sanky for example.
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:33 PM   #4
Greg Jennings
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I think at 2 years you qualify as "having your feet on the ground". I boxed, studied karate, collegiate wrestling, did some full-contact kick boxing and generally monkeyed around with other things before studying aikido. I think it all helped.

With respect to dealing with professional fighters, I think it's a pipe dream for 99.9% of those in any (emtpy hand) martial art to deal with them no matter how long they've been training. It's not the art, it's the artist.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:37 PM   #5
PeterR
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Interestingly I found out that one of the top ranked Japanese kickboxers is originally a Shodokan Aikido guy. Have to get some more info but I was told his foot and hand movements are classic Shodokan or at least you can see the influence.

Haruaki Ohtsuki
http://number.goo.ne.jp/kakutogi/20040506-others.html

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:45 PM   #6
EJC
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I train under Sensei Jason Delucia. He mainly teaches Aikido but mixes in other arts also in class. It works out very well in class and seems to be the theme that most schools are leaning towards.
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:59 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I wouldn't say most schools.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:11 PM   #8
Adam Alexander
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Here, here, it's not the art, it's the artist.

However, in regards to cross-training: If while building your house, you change the construction of the foundation on advice of neighbors, you will not have a strong house because it rests on a weak foundation.

Okay, okay. I know what I'm talking about. I just don't know how to say it I'm sure someone else knows this one. So please, throw me a line.

Also, Shioda Sensei, in his book "Shugyo: Harmony in Confrontation" says that it's those who work on timing that you have to worry about. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems like you'd be more busy learning new techniques than working on timing.

Finally, since technique is supposed to be reflexive, seems like you're divided. My experience was consistently using the Isshin-Ryu vertical fist for my atemi while cross-training.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 01-25-2005 at 07:16 PM. Reason: forgot something
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:26 AM   #9
Robert Cheshire
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Eric - I would have to agree with Peter in saying this is not a major theme of *most* schools. That being said - I read and post on Jason's site at www.aikidog.com and have to say I think he blends it together well.

I sometimes don't always follow what he means when he post on sites such as this (or even on aikidog), but, when I see his clips and hear him speak or demonstrate aikido it is clear that he knows what he is talking about. He does a great job of blending things together. I wish I could go to one of his training sessions or clinics!

Robert Cheshire
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www.yoseikanbudo.us
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:53 PM   #10
EJC
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Quote:
Robert Cheshire wrote:
Eric - I would have to agree with Peter in saying this is not a major theme of *most* schools. That being said - I read and post on Jason's site at www.aikidog.com and have to say I think he blends it together well.

I sometimes don't always follow what he means when he post on sites such as this (or even on aikidog), but, when I see his clips and hear him speak or demonstrate aikido it is clear that he knows what he is talking about. He does a great job of blending things together. I wish I could go to one of his training sessions or clinics!
I apologize, when I typed *Most*, I meant, most of the schools in my area.For example, the TKD school that has been strictly TKD for years, now has a huge banner on the side of there building advertising that they are now also offering BJJ and boxing classes.

As for my Sensei Jason Delucia, If you can make one of his training sessions or clinics, I know you wont be disappointed.

In my profession, I have had many teachers and instructors, he is by far the best and most knowledgeable I have had. Its an honor to train under someone with the skill, knowledge and experience he possesses. (and yes, he admits that computers is not one of his favorite things to do)
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:43 AM   #11
Robert Cheshire
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I just get lost in the philosphy he types. I have heard him on the clips say similar things and they make sense. I will have to try to make it up there someday for a clinic.

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
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Old 01-29-2005, 09:51 PM   #12
Christian Orderud
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Well, I practiced TKD for a few years almost 10 years back, and have also been worrying a bit about being able to use aikido vs. f.eks. TKD'ers, boxers, bjj'ers, shootfighters etc. But then again, how realistic is it that I would end up in a fight with one of those, when I have never gotten into a fight with anyone at all during my 26 year old life?

I have decided that I won't bother myself with that question, and just practice Aikido a lot. Maybe worry about crosstraining after 4-5 years, when I hopefully have gotten myself up to shodan. For now, I simply focus on becomming a better Aikidoka, and improving myself. Perhaps the answers will come when I have practiced long enough.
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Old 01-30-2005, 07:39 AM   #13
Tim Griffiths
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I'd agree its a good idea to learn aikido before worrying if it works against a professional boxer....
Honestly, if someone practices aikido 2-3 times a week for a couple of hours, how can they hope to fight someone who earns a living from it? There's nothing magical about aikido that allows you to defeat people who train much harder in what they do than you do.

But the solution is quite simple - if you want to know what aikido is like against a boxer, or a judoka, or a TKDer (whatever you call them) - then find one. Preferably one who does aikido, so IF you manage to get a lock on you won't hurt them. And more preferably one who has a spare set of protectors, so WHEN they smack you around the head they won't do much damage.

My experience is that aikido works. Or rather, the aikido principles of ma-ai, kuzushi etc work, whoever your attacker is. Some techniques become very difficult to use, so if you try, say, shihonage against a Wing Chun guy, or sankyo against a boxer, then you'll probably end up in trouble.
Actually, its not the technique that I find is hard, its the entry and ma-ai. Once you can enter with a boxer, you've done all the hard work. Once you've got a TKDer's balance, you're almost home.

Moral of the story? Practice aikido, practice a lot, and particularly practice the entry, and the answer to a lot of these questions becomes evident.

Tim

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 01-30-2005, 01:41 PM   #14
justinc
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I agree with the posts above, particularly Tim's and would like to emphasise it by way of illustrating my personal experience.

I happen to be one of those TKD/Aikido mix people (I also practice Hapkido too that serves as a blend between the two - yeah, I have no life other than martial arts :P ). What I find is that the majority of lower-ranked Aikidokas will forget their principles when someone comes at them with an "unusual" attack in a free practice session. It seems that the principles suddenly disappear when exposed to something out of the normal, rather than being strengthened. The principles should work, but for some reason the practioner only sees them in the context of the attacks that their training deals with. This is no blight on the art itself, just a lack of deep understanding of the principles of the individual artist. As case of not seeing the forest for the trees (principles vs techniques). For example in free practice I will occasionally toss in a slow front or side kick. My partner almost invariably gets this look in the eyes and a freezing of the body for a second or two while they work out just what has happened and why a hand was not coming at them in a "normal" attack. Our school (which teaches multiple independent MAs) regularly has cross-training sessions with another school that is a pure Aikido school. I've seen this same sort of reaction even from one of the Nidans there simply because they're not exposed to it all that often, and the opposite from one of the mid-kyu ranked students. From my receiving end, I can feel the difference between a partner that has taken the principles to their core versus one that has learnt to be effective in a number of set techniques. Even this is evident to me though I'm not that experienced in martial arts relative to most of these people. If you take your aikido principles and practice those, rather than just practicing techniques, then to quote Tim's last sentence "the anser to a lot of these questions becomes evident".

Justin Couch
Student of life.
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:16 AM   #15
kroh
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I am a firm believer in the principle that if it works...Use it. Cross training can add a depth to one's training that might have been missed in a singular training experience.

One of the greatest benefit to cross training that I have found is that in many instances the new system being incorporated often has tips that make the application of the original technique easier to understand and apply.

I am primarily a Jun Fan Gung Fu / Jeet Kune Do fighter (although Japanese Martial Arts have always been there through the years) but i have the great pleasure on many occasions during the year to train with some great Aikidoka. As a small guy I usually have a hard time entering into an opponent. Some of the classes I take in Aikido have given me new insights on footwork to help with my entering attacks.

I highly recomend anyone who studies martial ways to undertake cross training at some point. I would like to echo the above posts in saying that first one must be solidly grounded in the basics of one before undertaking another.

Thank you
Regards,
Walt
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:31 PM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

I'm an ex TKDist (WTF), witch some experience in competition in the late 80's, and now an 1st kyu in Aikido. When work schedule permits i train in American Kickboxing, and noticed Aikido principles are useful in the kickboxing environment.

However, i've also noticed kickboxing principles are also useful in the Aikido environment: hard physical training, footwork, distance, timing, pain tolerance and good "atemi" (especially as receiver of the "atemi" ) helps to make my Aikido better.

Of course i need more years of Aikido training to really say i have a decent Aikido.

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Old 02-17-2005, 09:19 AM   #17
SeiserL
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

IMHO, a lot of us cross train or have background in other martial arts. I think it wise to get a firm foundation in each one (or you won't have a foundation in any), keeping them separate in training and thinking, until they start to integrate by themselves.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:35 AM   #18
ian
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Yep - I think all martial arts are fundamentally similar; it's all about efficient use of the body. However it's often only in the more advanced stages that this can be seen. Other martial arts give you a good insight into your own martial arts, but don't try to mix them in the dojo or you will annoy your instructors!

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:35 PM   #19
bryce_montgomery
 
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Yeah...it's hard to use a vertical Isshin-Ryu punch for atemi considering Isshin-Ryu is a more defensive form of Karate that strives for being steady while attacking...

Anyway, I recently started crosstraining in Isshin-Ryu Karate under an instructor that is one of our aikido students which is cool...I say go for it...Just remember that you are trying to learn one form in one place and focus on learning them separately...but that's also just me...

Bryce
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Old 02-19-2005, 08:52 AM   #20
CNYMike
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Re: MMA=Mix Martial Aikido

Quote:
Walt Robillard wrote:
......I highly recomend anyone who studies martial ways to undertake cross training at some point. I would like to echo the above posts in saying that first one must be solidly grounded in the basics of one before undertaking another.

As far as what to cross train in, if there's a rule of thumb I've picked up over the years it's this: Don't rule anything out. In other words, don't say, "I will never do _________ because _______," because you never know what will catch your interest and why. I say this because when I got my mother into Tai Chi four years ago, I had no interest in it one way or the other, but I sat in on her first class, and found it interesting. So the next week, I joined the class too, and we went once a week for three years, until her health deteriorated and she couldn't go any longer. I still do Tai Chi, even though my mother passed away two years ago, because I found benefits from it related to other things I do.

Some people organize their choices: "Do A for this and B for that and C for the other thing," and if that approach works for you, fine. But you can just as easily benefit from following your nose and doing what you're interested in.
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