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Old 01-12-2005, 12:19 AM   #51
Bronson
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

The wardrobe people also dressed her with the right side of the gi on top. Maybe this was foreshadowing that she would eventually die in the series

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:03 AM   #52
happysod
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
Dude you sound EXACTLY like the people who put aikido down for being a glorified dance form with falling down
Dudess, if aikido was based on a japanese soap opera without any foundation in traditional skills and with no link to the plethora of skilled, cross trained martial artists who were involved in it's inception, I'd be happily cheering them on.

I find the whole concept of "but it's been on tv for such a long time and look, there's some people who have done proper martial arts doing it now" as a reason for granting it any sort of respectability as a martial art extremely amusing. I must go and buy the cardassian ninja techniques book to complete the set.
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Old 01-12-2005, 04:25 AM   #53
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Stage combat: I hesitate to call stage combatives or theatrical combatives martial art, but that's a semantic quibble, really. I know 'serious' martial arts folks who take such things very seriously, but don't confuse the two either.

Fantasy MA: Dunno, if I wanted to study some real kick-butt fantasy MA, I'd look up the folks who developed the fighting styles for Peter jackson's LoTR trilogy. Loved the elven 'nagimaki' thingies.

Why do 'real' MA: The history, the connection with the culture, the philosophical and spiritual aspects, the neat uniforms.

I'm kind of a budo snob. I don't call anything not directly based on Japanese systems 'budo' ... to include some Okinawan systems. I'm also fond of Draeger's idea that 'martial' arts are those that are or were practiced by or based upon the fighting systems of the warrior class (thus the martial). Anything else is a civil combative art or a combative sport.

In that light, I wouldn't lump stage combatives in with martial arts, but would say, perhaps, depending on the stage art, the choreographer's experience and intent, that the stage arts are related to, derived from or otherwise influenced by martial arts, but wouldn't call them martial arts.

Likewise, for instance, kenbu, trad. japanese sword dancing. It uses a sword, and contains elements of budo technical movement, application and theory, but it is dance, and not reflective of a combative tradition as such.

As for aikido, some of aikido is very martial, and some are, um, dancing with falling down at the end. Same can be said of other budo as well, though. I think intent and the intensity are key to making those distinctions, and even then, it's a real grey area.

YMMV.

Chuck

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Old 01-12-2005, 09:56 AM   #54
Qatana
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

So Chuck, are you saying you don't consider any non-Japanese fighting style a "martial art"?

Anyway, I never called Klingon fighting a "martial art" either. Just a "viable" one. Even if its just choreography, thats an Art in itself.

Anyone see the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? What exactly was the Captain Nemo character doing? I'd like an art that has throws, kicks AND swords all at the same time!

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:02 AM   #55
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
All of us are aiki-nerds.
The thing about the "Code of Honor" episode is that while i've only seen it once since I started training, it didn't much look like aikido to me.
ah, but it's what aikido turned into in the 24th century because all the aiki-nerds were focused on fantasy weapons and stage combat. The succeeding generations were confused by statements that it's all martial arts. Thus the Soke Council was able to increase their market share such that by the 23rd century, a few key individuals including a famous admiral who had a fondness for open hand strikes and low kicks was able to insitute what you saw as the official Star Fleet aikido training program.


Last edited by kironin : 01-12-2005 at 10:04 AM.

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Old 01-12-2005, 10:08 AM   #56
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Its gettn kinda of geeky in here. Almost like a "convention" like atmosphere. Fist one that shows up wearing vulcan ears and I am out of here.

Stage combat is really designed for camera angle. To make strikes appear that they connect but are hidden in the camera blind spot. In college, myself and the drama teacher would routinely stage an arguement that would lead into a "fight" in the hallways. Shocking all the freshman and some facualty as well. But it was all in good jest, but fake none the less.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:18 AM   #57
kung fu hamster
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

How about if you get a group of Japanese martial artists to adopt the batleth, maybe put chains on it or something (like the chain and sickle?) and incorporate it into their dojo training regimen... Techniques and philosophy can evolve and be field tested over the years. Then by the time the 23rd century rolls around, it could be considered a genuine Japanese martial art with a genuine centuries old authentic lineage, sokes and everything, and Jo can have the last laugh. (hey, I'm a closet Trekkie too).

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Old 01-12-2005, 10:42 AM   #58
Qatana
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

But *I* don't want it to be a Japanese martial art! Just because Klingon ethics are loosely based on Japanese (LOOSELY) don't mean it has to go to Japan. But then again, i spend about 1/4 of the year living in the 16th century, six weeks in Victorian London, and three nights a week playing samurai.

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:14 AM   #59
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Wouldn't the Klingon Empire be more closely associated with the Monguls? You know, Ghengis Khan and stuff? That way, we can still consider it an asian martial art, but not japanese... more like mongolian or himilayan or something.

"From the lost and forgotten lands of inner Mongolia come the ancient teachings of the warlords of old. The ancient texts of Grandmaster Khan bring forth the extraordinary martial art of Mok'bara. Weapons of old will clash with the 21st century as the legend of Ghengis Khan is reborn in the secret teachings of the BatleH as well as many other weapons never known before now!

Send $19.95 to:
Mok'bara: Legends of Ghengis Khan and the BatleH
c/o John Boswell
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Midland, Tx. 79701
Limited time offer. Act now while supplies last!

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Old 01-12-2005, 11:17 AM   #60
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
So Chuck, are you saying you don't consider any non-Japanese fighting style a "martial art"?!
Nope. I'm saying I don't think non-Japanese martial arts are 'budo' and that non-military-connected fighting systems aren't 'martial'. As I said, it' semantix.

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Anyway, I never called Klingon fighting a "martial art" either. Just a "viable" one. Even if its just choreography, thats an Art in itself.
The 'art' I cannot disagree with ...

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
What exactly was the Captain Nemo character doing? I'd like an art that has throws, kicks AND swords all at the same time!
No clue, but there are extant sogo budo that include multiple facets of personal combat, based on internally consistent core principles and methodologies of movement (I practice one).

I can think of a good handful, in fact, but then, they aren't necessarily available generally, either. Most of the older ryuha, in fact, at one time or another have included multiple combative aspects. The speciaization of 'kenjutsu' or 'jujutsu' was a relatively modern thing (Meiji-ish) for the most part.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Takeuchi Ryu, Tennin Rishin Ryu, Kiraku Ryu all come to mind as systems that have preserved all or part of the sogo bujutsu aspect.

There are, however, a LOT of folks who will cobble together some karate, judo, aikido, kendo, iaido, kitchen sink and whipped cream on top and happily sell it to you ... and some of those folks are probably pretty good fighters. That doesn't make it proper, authentic, viable or particularly martial. It makes a mishmash, usually not internally consistent, quite often, put together by folks who might be qualified in one art or another, but not in all the things they claim to be teaching.

That aside ... as for the Klingon stage-combat, if someone wanted to practice it, that's their thing and I've no beef with it, but would be hesitant to say they were studying anything OTHER than a particular instance of stage combat -- not martial art.

Hey, if it makes 'em happy, they benefit from it, no one gets hurt, and no one gets lied to, then it's a case of whatever floats your boat.

Chuck

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Old 01-12-2005, 07:41 PM   #61
deepsoup
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Wouldn't the Klingon Empire be more closely associated with the Monguls? You know, Ghengis Khan and stuff? That way, we can still consider it an asian martial art, but not japanese... more like mongolian or himilayan or something.
Douglas Adams wrote that "the casual observer would not notice anything unusual about Ghengis Khan"[1].

Sean
x

[1] Because the casual observer would be dead.
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Old 01-12-2005, 08:01 PM   #62
PeterR
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

So you really like Star Trek and especially Klingons. You learn to speak an invented language, learn the invented customs, and practice an invented martial art. And the best part - you have fun doing it.

You probably don't take it nearly as seriously as some people think you do and so what if you do.

Not really that much different from the Society for Creative Anachronism or from Aikido. Our techniques might have an actual history but we are assuming a role.

More power to them.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-12-2005, 08:27 PM   #63
wendyrowe
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
...Not really that much different from the Society for Creative Anachronism or from Aikido. Our techniques might have an actual history but we are assuming a role....
Now that the SCA has gotten two mentions in this thread, it's started me wondering: how many of us have been involved with the SCA? It and Aikido may have more in common than just roleplaying.

I still have my common and fancy garb, but they're packed away while my gi's are front and center.

Getting back to the main issue, working with Klingon weapons can't be much stranger or less realistic than using a Cyclone Circular Knife or throwing stars, and might be more useful.
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Old 01-12-2005, 08:32 PM   #64
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
Getting back to the main issue, working with Klingon weapons can't be much stranger or less realistic than using a Cyclone Circular Knife or throwing stars, and might be more useful.
Can it be used as a beer opener.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:14 PM   #65
mikeg
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

For what it's worth, Dan Curry, who invented the bat'leth, has a black belt in tae kwon do and based the bat'leth on the Chinese fighting crescent. He says that the Korean Martial Arts Association has recognized it as the first new bladed weapon approved for study in several hundred years.

No, I'm not a hard-core Trekkie, but I was so amused by the idea of a Klingon martial art that I had to look it up.
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:29 AM   #66
Qatana
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

I never did SCA but I do a lot of Renaissance Faires and the Dickens Xmas Fair- most of us don't take our characters *quite* as seriously as many SCAers, but "normal" people laugh at us for being Different, anyway.
I'm finding that many other interesting interests have a large MA crossover.

Never thought of Klingons as Korean...nor Mongolian. Klingons are all about Honor, they wouldn't rampage across the Steppes simply for the sake of conquest. Well. maybe the 60s ones might, way back before we knew what they were Really like.

Q
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Old 01-14-2005, 07:26 AM   #67
Kevin Masters
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

"Is there a word in Klingon for loneliness? Ah, yes. Garrll dall!"
-Comic Bookstore Guy

Where does the lightsaber kumitatchi thread begin??
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Old 01-14-2005, 10:08 AM   #68
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

On the "Humor Forum."

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Old 01-16-2005, 04:23 PM   #69
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Dan Curry (the guy who designed the weapon and art commented about it in an interview for newtek.com
[ http://www.newtek.com/products/light...files/DanCurry ]



NewTek.com: You have done a lot of weapons design, correct?
Dan Curry: Yes, that is correct. I spent a lot of time living in Asia, and during my misspent youth I devoted a lot of time studying martial arts. When Next Generation had an episode on Klingons where Worf was to inherit this weapon, I didn't like the idea of giving him a pirate's cutlass, or something that looked like it came out of medieval Normandy. I had been imagining this kind of curved weapon, somewhat of a cross between Himalayan weapons and something from Northern China. So I combined them with kind of a fluid fighting style, inspired by Tai Chi, this is where the Bat'leth came from.

Michael Dorn, a director on the series and the actor who played Worf, called me and said he needed a new weapon, he came over and I showed him some of my old swords. We then decided to use a cavalry weapon, so that Worf would be able to have a smaller weapon to hide behind his back.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:56 PM   #70
Qatana
 
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Ok I just *had* to resurrect this thread. The other day I was watching "Shanghai Noon" and in the barrom brawl Jackie Chan pulls a pair of moose antlers off the wall and performs some absolutely Classic Batleth-Fu.
Just sayin....
Not budo, no, but Classic! But I never said Klingon MAs were budo, either....

Q
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:01 PM   #71
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Quote:
But I never said Klingon MAs were budo, either....
Not do, Jutsu!

B,
R (I know, I know, false catagorization [is that a word??])

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:06 PM   #72
Dajo251
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

I dont know if anyone mentioned this(seeing as I dont feel like reading through the whole thread), but I was reading in some magazine, that the Batlith is actually excepted as weapon with full katas and the like by the korean federation of MArtial arts, the guy who created the weapon as well as the movments based around it is an accomplished martial artist, damn if only I could find that article

Dan Hulley
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:52 AM   #73
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Klingon Martial Art

Hey, have you seen some of the 'weapons' the musical kata folks are using? The Batlith thingie fits right in ...

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