Klingon Martial Art

[Editor's note: Original thread from which this thread was spawned is here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7279]

Wow!

Look very closely at the picture with the sword. Look on the wall behind him. There's a pair of Klingon Batleths hanging there. Surely, every comprehensive Japanese martial art includes use of the batleth.

Please have your phaser with you if you're going dojo storming, and remember, as long as your phaser is set to stun, it's still aikido.

Best,

Fred Little

Dave Humm wrote: Posture ? Nope no sword posture there. Plus the 'weapon' he's holding looks very much like a cheep Spanish reproduction "fantasy" sword. Nothing a serious sword user or indeed any martial artist would touch with a barge-pole. Its nothing more that a wall hanger and a tacky bit of shite at that.

Did you notice the Klingon weapons hanging on the wall behind that picture?

Addendum: Dang, Fred, you beat me to it!

Best,

Not to give this guy any credibility at all, I think the guy who came up with the Batlith choreography created somethng quite lovely to watch.
I'd study it if I had the opportunity...hmmm, guess my certificate would have to come from Paramount Pictures then.
Of course we always found it amusing to find them for sale at Renaissance Faire weapons booths- real authentic 16th century Space Weapons.Then again, I have seen Klingons at the Faire. As well as some pretty interesting looking Samurai...

Greg.. Fred Indeed I did see those but failed to engage (pardon the pun) the Trekkie brain cell (yes I have more than one!) and register what they were.

At this juncture I'd like to coin my favourite descriptive for this person but I'm sure I'll be told to "calm" my language for fear of upsetting the politically correct or just plain easily offended.

Gutted !

So... Say what you see lol

Like the the credit card commercial:

Suspect teaching credentials: scary
Noticing klingon weapons in the photo: more scary
Knowing the name of said weapon: alarming

lol

now for
*jedi mind trick*
"these arent the droids you are looking for"

Why do you find it alarming that we know a Klingon weapon when we see one and know what it is called? Is it alarming that a community of mostly Americans should be aware of their cultural heritage? Cuz like it or not, TV is pretty much the Arbiter of culture in this country.
At least Klingon has a fully developed language and forms of martial arts. They may not be "legitimate" but they do exist and are practiced by a community every bit as intelligent as this one.And possibly More open-minded.
And if I had the opportunity to study Kilngon martial Arts, I would research the instructors qualification and lineage as thoroughly as I did my dojo.


...sez the girl with the Klingon Name

Hmmmm
You miss the tongue and cheek approach that I used. Note the classic obi wan sentence.
This will teach me to cross swords with a trekker.
For the record, there is nothing wrong with knowing that, albeit odd, but its your boat float it your own way. We all have our "areas" of pursuit. I enjoy alot of sci fi myself, will more than alot.

Live long and prosper
and I will be sure to run when I see you wielding that klingon weapon

And if I had the opportunity to study Kilngon martial Arts, I would research the instructors qualification and lineage as thoroughly as I did my dojo

I've got to ask, how could you possibly have a "legitimate Klingon lineage" - I have to say I find the concept of putting a purely fictional sci-fi race/combat system in the same terms as any more mundane terrestrial martial art rather disturbing. They might be impressively knowledgeable about their subject, but at the end of the day it's still just all make-believe Jo, no matter how obsessive the fan.

It is a weapon. SOMEBODY had to figure out how to use that weapon. I would think that lineage in this situation would be to the person who developed the original theatrical prop and choreography, which DID develop into a system of combat. I never said anything about "Klingon lineage". Somebody who studied this system in the context of TV choreography is still a part of a "lineage".

I'm sure the fight choreograher has Some kind of "legitimate", :earthly" background in MA of some kind as well, and they should also be forthcoming on their training background in the context of their deveoping their style. If Batlith combat was purely fictional, there wouldn't BE people who are able to use and spar with them today.

I bet somebody thought fifty years ago that what OSenei was doing was also make-believe. Gods know, there are people today who practice aikido who think so. These few threads about legitimacy all seem to agree that someone can create their own style of martial arts. OSensei did. Why shouldn't a Stage Combat Specialist create something that could, and is, developing into something that is actually a viable art? Because we don't fight with swords any more?

I think its just about as "make-believe" as people putting on 100 pounds of armor and getting on a horse and riding at each other with long wooden sticks.

And when I come to think of it, forty years ago, a device that fits in your pocket with a lid that flips open, giving you the ability to communicate with anyone, anywhere, from anywhere, was also "make-believe".
They were also "invented" by a Star Trek writer & a prop maker.

Jo Adell wrote: Why shouldn't a Stage Combat Specialist create something that could, and is, developing into something that is actually a viable art? Because we don't fight with swords any more?

uh, what kind of viable art ? certainly not a martial art.
why would it ever develop into something that is not the goal.

the goals of stage combat are very different from a martial art that wants to be useful in some manner for self-defense.

stage combat aims to provide drama to a story. to engage the audience visually in a conflict between actors acting as combatants. To appear deadly or to cause harm but not actually get anyone hurt. To that end there are certainly teachers of stage combat.

sometimes a martial art may as side effect of it's goals provide some visual drama for an audience at a demonstration, but it better not be the actual goal. A stage combat teacher may draw upon some of those moves to provide a sense of realism but almost certainly the choreography will remain choreography.

Eroll Flynn sword-fighting style never became anything other than stage combat. Why would the Klingon Bathleth be any different. Don't kid yourself. It was created for form not function.

I said Viable, didn't I? I didn't say Legitimate Martial Art. i said "viable art ". You quoted "viable art".

If I practice Aikido because I find it aesthetically pleasing then, and not for self defense, then I am not practicing a Martial Art. If I practice Batlith for the same reason, then I have to define aikido as a Physical Art Form as well.
Its all in the motivation. If I just happen to be able to fight off an invader in my home bacause I know how to handle a Stage Prop effectively, then this glorified Dance Form becomes Self-defense.
Since every aikido technique I've ever learned was choreographed and I am expected to figure out, in a period of several years, how to apply it in a self defense situation, I really don't see the difference.
A Martial Art may be created using ANY Thing. Legitimacy is defined by Agreement.
And most of the Combat choreographers of my acquaintance study a LOT of "legitimate" martial arts.How do you know that Batleth technique CAN"T become a legitimate art in time?

sure, everything is relative

let's just say we disagree on many levels and call it day.

synonyms for viable
feasible, possible, practicable, workable

This discussion is the most fascinating I've read here in months.

"Its all in the motivation. If I just happen to be able to fight off an invader in my home bacause I know how to handle a Stage Prop effectively, then this glorified Dance Form becomes Self-defense.
Since every aikido technique I've ever learned was choreographed and I am expected to figure out, in a period of several years, how to apply it in a self defense situation, I really don't see the difference."

I think that if this is true, then I can't claim to see a difference either.

Jo Adell wrote: It is a weapon. SOMEBODY had to figure out how to use that weapon. I would think that lineage in this situation would be to the person who developed the original theatrical prop and choreography, which DID develop into a system of combat.

Methinks of Jackie Chan wielding the deadly coat hanger--nail that sucker, Jackie! ...er, that seersucker!

If thats the case:
then I am the soke wet towel snapping.

Run in fear of me when I have the towel with the wet tip. Travelling (the wet towel tip)at subsonic speed to leave a welt on your bootie.!!!

Be in all of my "soked"-towel-do!!!!!!

This is such a silly thread

Not so silly - does anyone remember the name of a martial art that uses a walking cane as it's primary weapon, the umbrella and need I mention farm implements. I've seen Wushu performances that use chairs.

Peter, the development of using a walking stick etc. for combat makes sense as it's just adapting commonly used implements to maximise their effective use as a make-shift weapon.

The Klingon weapons I presume are more akin to true arms such as swords - now if someone could show they are effective and well designed weapons which are superior in some ways to existing weapons, I'd probably change my mind on their inclusion in martial arts (and no I don't accept stage combat as validating their use). However, most martial arts weapons (lets ignore nun chucks and sai for now) at least have proven abilities when applied to the battlefield - I'd be very surprised if the inventions of a sci-fi soap opera writing team could really come up with a truly useful weapon.

Jo - you're correct in that the correlation between scientific inventions and current sci-fi fiction is nothing new. However, this hardly relates to the invention of a new outmoded pole-arm by an alien race surely?

William Oakes wrote: Hmmmm This will teach me to cross swords with a trekker.

Q: What's the difference between a trekkie and a trekker?

A: One wonders what sex in zero gravity would be like. The other wonders what sex would be like.

Sorry, couldn't resist cheap gag. I'll put my spoon away.

Ian Hurst wrote: I'd be very surprised if the inventions of a sci-fi soap opera writing team could really come up with a truly useful weapon.

OK, I know that this is not what you meat but:

1- Mass drivers: take a large rock and smash it from space onto a planet. Who was it that said "When I want to attack someone, I find the biggest things around. So far, I have not found bigger than the Earth."

2- Beam weapons, in particular laser which are now deployed by some services in the US army. Including but not exhaustively: sonic, plasma and gauss.

3- Dune and its shields which require the attacker to slow down his attack otherwise the shield holds. This would develop a whole new martial art. Of course, Herbert's Dune is full of strange semi-mystical things explained by "body control".

...

Let's face it. Martial arts while useful don't beat missiles or combat robots -- which BTW are being deployed in Iraq.

Yann, naughty, the argument was all w.r.t. a personal combat weapon, akin to outmoded pole-arms, but I'll bite anyway.

1. & 2. : I think you'll find they were postulated by credible scientists who also just happened to write sci-fi, rather than soap-opera hacks

3. [geek mode] your mixing up the bene-gesserit wierding way with adaptions to knife fighting with kinetic shields, shame on you

As regards combat robots... I think a decent martial artist should win hands down against these so far as I believe they're proving to be rather crap as combatives. Also, as the only ones I've heard of still need a human operator, so I'd actually classify these as combat waldos rather than robots. [/geek mode]

Yann Golanski wrote: 3- Dune and its shields which require the attacker to slow down his attack otherwise the shield holds. This would develop a whole new martial art. Of course, Herbert's Dune is full of strange semi-mystical things explained by "body control"...

Ah yes, Dune. The mythical story of a desert dwelling people who control the means of transport.

Mark Johnston wrote: Ah yes, Dune. The mythical story of a desert dwelling people who control the means of transport.

Not fair Mark. You made me think early in the morning.



Cheers,

Matt.

[geek mode] Isn't it odd, that Dune, written in the fifties, depicts a group of religiously fanatical people, living in a desert, fending off an empire who's sole purpose is to control the substance that is the vital to all meaningful modes of transportation? Coincidence, or did Mr. Herbert take a few hits of melange himself to make sure that his work was relevant in the 21st century? I'd like to think so [/geek mode]

For some reason unknown to me, trekkers seem to be offended by the term "trekie". I think because it resembles groupie with the ie on the end of it. Dunno.

But thats pretty funny Bridge