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Old 01-14-2005, 06:33 AM   #26
justinm
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote:
I think some people are getting a little too soft. Obviously, you can't infilct pain when training
Yes you can, and I'd argue you should.
Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote:
but in a real fight situation,(which is what Aikido is supposed to be preparing you for)
A lot of people would disagree.
Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote:
it would be essential.
No it would not.


So it seems we disagree, Carl

Justin McCarthy
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Old 01-14-2005, 07:33 AM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

What are you trying to achieve? To define "good aikido" as "anything that works to dominate the uke" is a bit low level in my opinion. Any time you can get your techniques working effectively without pain, you have just made yourself MUCH more effective against people who are bigger, stronger, and have high pain tolerances. (Which, I guess is what I'm trying to achieve.)

There are some teachers out there that basically figured out how to tear your arms off if you don't comply with them, but this isn't my cup of tea and while I have to respect their ability (or at least the danger they impose) I'm not all that impressed with them.

I find that Gleason sensei is able to throw me effortlessly against my best resistance - especially against the typical wrist turning techniques. When he does, he has a fairly loose grip, there is no pain, and I cannot stop him. To me, anyone who can do that is approaching the ideal and is a lot more inspirational.

Don't get me wrong; there is nothing wrong with knowing how to force a technique, but I personally wouldn't be very interested in a teacher who could not express such power in a soft way - for very long.

As far as pinning goes - I think you should be able to do it without TOO much pain to the uke (which I suppose has a bit to do with their flexibility) - and if you need pain you can generally just apply more pressure against the joint. I guess I'm having trouble imagining when you _need_ to add more pain? Are you trying to torture information out of the uke? It would probably be easier and more effective to tie them up and use hot plyers. But this seems to be going against the "protect my aggressor" theme...

Rob
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Old 01-14-2005, 09:39 AM   #28
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Rob,

You're talking about proper techniques that use skeletal locks rather than pain compliance. It's a beautiful thing isn't it!

Chris
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Old 01-14-2005, 10:35 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
To "prove" that Aikido techniques do go against the joint, you would have to document a technique that went against the joint. Ideally the documentation would include Budo or other early works on Aikido. Off hand, I can't think of such a technique.
[/b]
Hijiate nage, hijishime nage...

As far as 'aiki-jutsu' ... I think we should be carefull in using that term to represent techniques that 'go against the joint' or 'bonebreaking' techniques. The most qualified use of the term 'aiki-jutsu' that I've seen seems to represent just the opposite. Perhaps the term 'aiki-jujutsu' would be more appropriate...

RT

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Old 01-14-2005, 11:47 AM   #30
rob_liberti
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Hi Chris.

You know, I'm not really sure. I'd say that they don't use pain compliance primarily for sure; and I suppose if I tried to resist with only one or two joints many of those techniques could eventually result in a skeletal lock situation. But, I think the best resistance is to involve as many joints as I can to distribute the power of the technique so it doesn't really feel like a skeletal lock to me. Also, I kind of have the idea (based on some experimentation) that he'd just switch what he was doing and continue messing up my balance in a new way.

As far as pinning goes, I find the yonkyo pin to be extremely difficult. The people who can pin me that way could just as easily pin me with one finger - so they don't really count. My opinion is that the yonkyo pin is never really your best bet.

Rob
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:34 PM   #31
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Phillip Smith said: "Interesting discussion. Maybe the fault (as so often) lies in the translation. I prefer to think of "working with the natural" as unforced movement. Sure the joint locks eventually but it doesn't have to be through a movement against the joint, joints will always lock at the end of natural range of motion and perhaps that is what is meant by working with rather than against the joint."

I do not really want to comment against Mr. Smith, especially since I think he is advocating a very common (wide-spread) view of Aikido waza. I would like to refer to this view in general, not personally.

Firstly, I do not feel Kisshomaru's statement is in need of such tweaking and/or spin in order for it to make sense. What he is saying is not so mysterious. If it appears to be it is for another reason. The need for such tweaking or spin comes not from the esoteric nature of what is being said but rather from the pressure of making something that is utterly false appear to be true or appear to be true in most circumstances.

Also: Movement on Nage's part does not have to be forced in order for an Uke's joint to travel beyond its range of motion.


Secondly, if one wants to say that Aikido moves joints naturally to the limit of their range of motion, one isn't going to fulfill the second part of Kisshomaru's statement -- which goes to Aikido's uniqueness. Nearly every other art -- Japanese and non-Japanes alike - manipulate joints naturally beyond their limited range of motion.

Thirdly, any healthy joint is going to experience a locked sensation and/or even pain (i.e. nerve sensation) whenever it is moved beyond its natural range of motion. That is not a translation issue; it is just science. If someone is being thrown, say with Kote Gaeshi, and the joint is staying within it's natural range of motion, then they are not really being thrown with Kote-Gaeshi as much as they are by some other Kokyu-Nage and/or as much as they are throwing themselves (which is always more common that one would like to admit). Again, other martial arts do these very things as well (even the throwing of oneself part).

In my opinion, if you are going to look for Aikido's uniqueness, it is in its spirituality (Osensei's and not Kisshomaru's) and in how that spirituality might effect one's waza and state of being.

A while ago, another post inspired me to write the following on where I would say Aikido's uniqueness truly lies -- from our web site:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/w...sofaikido.html

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 01-14-2005, 02:14 PM   #32
rob_liberti
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

I'd like to share some alternative perspective to that last post...

I heard that Yamaguchi sensei used to say (often) that kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it. Considering the sheer number of shihans who were actively attending his classes for instruction, I'm going to go with his view point as much more authoritative than almost anyone elses on what kotegaeshi is/should be. From the perspective of his lineage, people who are cranking the wrist against the joints are _not really doing kotegaeshi_.

Rob
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Old 01-14-2005, 05:42 PM   #33
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Yes, fine, but not even Yamaguchi's position speaks to the uniqueness of Aikido's kote gaeshi since there are many arts that do it without "cranking" anything.

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-14-2005, 08:43 PM   #34
rob_liberti
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

fair enough..
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Old 01-14-2005, 11:02 PM   #35
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Rob,

I was refering to your experience with Sensei Gleason and the "wrist turning" techniques. If someone has a relaxed grip, is controlling your center by only touching your hand or wrist, and there is no pain then they are doing proper skeletal locks. If you can't feel it then the nage is good enough to know that "you can't resist what you can't feel". Or you have suffered nerve damage.

Don't get me wrong, I know that aikido can hurt, but it shouldn't have to. Of course the landings are up the the uke.

Chris
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Old 01-14-2005, 11:56 PM   #36
Alvin H. Nagasawa
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Re: Locking/Pinning as Pain Submission...
Quote:/ Philip Smith mentioned it maybe the fault (as often) lies in the translation.
I agree the joints do lock at "the end of a natural range of motion".and been "soft is also lost in the translation.
As for the other that posted there comments "translation is lost", for everyone has there own concept. One has to just go with the flow you might say. not to have conflicts and just glide thought the Translations.
For what's it worth, My concept is as a uke for instance. His job is to execute the proper attack and protect himself in the process. As for receiving a painful reaction to the technique been done to ones own self (Uke). You are resisting and the nage is only restraining your attack. You are causing this reaction to the submission. If the Nage is centered and weight is underside,posture and execution of the technique. it is difficult but not impossible to counter, But its in the translation of what is asked to determine the question.What if?, Why doesn't it work? and etc. There is the hard way and soft way of submission or application of a technique. It is different for each Dojo and Instructor. But look at it this way, can you continue training Aikido. if you are injured to a point where one cannot continue to train Aikido into your 70's or later. Boxer, Extreme MA Fighters, Professional all retire after sustaining physical injury's in there careers. In Aikido the ones that leave the art for personnel reason, Family, work, Commitments and so on. Do so, But there are a few of us left that will carry on. Because we have been injured in the pass, But got smarter and learned not to resist the attack, and learned to be a good Uke. So to continue and learn in our later years in Aikido. The younger and stronger students just need to flex there physical power. And are lost in "The translation" of what your teachers were trying to teach you all these years. Remember, Where there is a action , there is always a reaction.food for thought!.. Aloha.

Lone Wolf of San Jose
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Old 01-16-2005, 12:21 PM   #37
rob_liberti
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
If someone has a relaxed grip, is controlling your center by only touching your hand or wrist, and there is no pain then they are doing proper skeletal locks.
I honestly don't know if that is true - Maybe?! The only way it makes sense to me is that it seems he's figured out how to pull my ligaments and tendons from outside of my body in just the right way to make me into a puppet, and he seems to do automatically. I can't explain it from the nage point of view - yet. (But I have high hopes!)

--
As far as uke's job being to execute a proper attack and keep safe in the process - I think there are varing levels of this - and the main thing is to stay appropriate for you and your partner's maximum learning. I definately risk my safety a bit more now than I used to. That makes it fun!

Rob
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:51 PM   #38
Don_Modesto
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
(1)....I do not feel Kisshomaru's statement is in need of such tweaking and/or spin in order for it to make sense. What he is saying is not so mysterious. If it appears to be it is for another reason. The need for such tweaking or spin comes not from the esoteric nature of what is being said but rather from the pressure of making something that is utterly false appear to be true or appear to be true in most circumstances. ...

....any healthy joint is going to experience a locked sensation and/or even pain (i.e. nerve sensation) whenever it is moved beyond its natural range of motion.

(2)....In my opinion, if you are going to look for Aikido's uniqueness, it is in its spirituality (Osensei's and not Kisshomaru's) and in how that spirituality might effect one's waza and state of being.
Hi, David,

1) Thanks for your comments here. I hadn't really thought through this aspect of technique. I just assumed that "going with the joint" (e.g. KOTE GAESHI) meant stretching soft tissue; "going against it" (ROKKYO), compressing bone. I like your reasoning here.

2) Yes. Absolutely. It was interesting to hear people's reaction to Kuroda Tetsuzan--Hark! other arts have heard of softness!

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-16-2005, 10:08 PM   #39
CNYMike
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Colby Pender wrote:
..... But even given all this (which I'm assuming is pretty basic learning, nothing fancy in it), why do you think so many people still refer to locking and pinning as pain submission?
Because they're painful. And because in other systems, like Lacoste Inosanto Kali, joint locks and pins are used for submissions.

Oddly enough, a few weeks ago, one of our sempais (who's also a newly minted shodan somewhere between Upstate New York and the dojo in Ashland Oregon where he'll be an uchi deischi) explained the Aikdio theory of joint locking as described above within the context of nikkyo. When he stopped thinking about the lock as pain and focused on controling my center, that made the lock WORSE. It felt like a welder's arc was being driven through my wrist!

Just food for thought.
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Old 01-16-2005, 10:20 PM   #40
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

"The holds and pins of Aikido are always applied towards the natural bend of the joint..."

Ok, now I'm confused.
Where are hiji ate kokyu nage or hiji shime applied, if not against the natural motion of the elbow?
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Old 01-16-2005, 11:12 PM   #41
Colbs
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Perhaps that's why the Aikikai folk often won't acknowledge Rokkyo...

Personally I have no problem inflicting (and recieving) pain during training - my original point was directed more towards the intent.

Here's how I view it:

If I lock someone's body up and control them, I'm happy.
If I lock someone's body up, control them, and inflict agony - SCORE.
If I just inflict agony - I screwed up.


As for all this "natural motion of the wrist" crap - you guys are WAY overanalysing things (seems kinda common around here). He knew what he was trying to say, but may not have been able to put it in writing properly - who knows. Fact is, all joint locks, by the laws of physics (and therefore biomechanics) work in the same way, by moving joints beyond the normal range of motion and either hyperextending, or compressing the bone structure. This is indisputable fact. I'll even challenge anyone to think of a joint lock which doesn't involve hyperextension or compression from _any_ martial art.

Also, it's important to note that just cos someone wrote something in a book once, does not make it true. Look at O-Sensei, he claimed he could dodge bullets - a blatantly false statement - and probably not what he meant (more something along the lines of he thought he could blend well enough with the shooter to be able to move before the trigger is pulled, but after the shooter has comitted to the shot - very highly unlikely, but I suppose not physically impossible - depending on range and target).

The overanalysis of things is pretty common, just take any religious text from just about any faith and you'll find the same thing, a bunch of dedicated people who have made the study of something their hobby/life's work and through their eagerness to get every last bit of information out of something begin to lose perspective. Language cannot transfer an idea from one person to another perfectly, it can only transfer an approximation of an idea. Sometimes the approximation is close, other's it's hardly similar at all. Language is best known to fall over when dealing with complex, abstract ideas.

In other words, if someone says something that is clearly ambiguous or wrong, chances are they're either flat out wrong, or trying to express something abstract that doesn't quit fit into words and they've picked the next closest thing.

In summary (for those who can't be bothered reading all that), regarding the "natural motion of the wrist" fiasco, I believe that it was meant in either the abstract, or was a miscommunication/misunderstanding.
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Old 01-16-2005, 11:24 PM   #42
Colbs
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Oh, and Michael,

You've hit my exact point - when someone concentrates on causing pain, they invariably screw the lock up, when they concentrate on taking the centre they are way more likely to get the lock right, and when it's right it usually hurts like a bastard.

Try to cause pain, you'll get the angles and torsion on the joint wrong and cause way less pain than if you concentrate on locking the centre. Focus (Intent) is key.

The crazy good Aikidoka out there who can control uke without inflicting pain can do so because they have such good sensitivity and control they can apply just enough force to control, the rest of us tend to use either way too much (pain, but it works) or way too little (no pain and it doesn't work).
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Old 01-17-2005, 07:11 PM   #43
maikerus
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Stuart Norton wrote:
"The holds and pins of Aikido are always applied towards the natural bend of the joint..."

Ok, now I'm confused.
Where are hiji ate kokyu nage or hiji shime applied, if not against the natural motion of the elbow?
Hijishime and Hijiate are (or so I am told) the exceptions in Aikido, since movements on the joints in Aikido usually move with the natural movement of the joint but further or in a slightly different direction than one normally sees them moving.

When I first ran down the list of techniques after being told this I was surprised that they were the only two (as well as the ikkajo pin) which hyperextend the elbow. Everything else works with the joints in the way they were designed to move (sorta )

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 01-17-2005, 07:20 PM   #44
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Regarding the death grip thing.

I think you can do a good, powerful technique while holding on for dear life, but its going to take a lot out of you, your balance is going to be up and your shoulders will be sticking out around your ears.

I think you can do a BETTER and MORE powerful technique if you can hold firmly (but not so strong that uke feels bones crushing) and instead work on using the grip to take uke to the edge of his/her balance.

I have always been told that uke shouldn't really feel anything until the last devastating part of the technique where they turn into a puddle on the mat or get thrown through a wall. A vice-like grip would be something uke would immediately try to escape from. A gentle, but firm grip may evoke some feeling of discomfort but not enough to make them fight to get away from it.

Especially if you are hitting them in the head at the same time.

Just a thought,

--Michael

Last edited by maikerus : 01-17-2005 at 07:23 PM.

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Old 01-17-2005, 09:40 PM   #45
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Hijishime and Hijiate....When I first ran down the list of techniques after being told this I was surprised that they were the only two (as well as the ikkajo pin) which hyperextend the elbow. Everything else works with the joints in the way they were designed to move (sorta )
I've had people bend my fingers backwards (very effectively, thank you) as prelude to SANKYO--watch Steven Seagal do this to UKEs' thumbs--and there's a tough variation of the IKKYO pin which braces the arm above the elbow and extends and lifts the wrist--Ouch! The arm bar principle works well on knees, too. It's a cinch to get it too; people who do that confident throw down before IRIMI NAGE expect you to come up compliantly into their clothesline. "Bah!" I say. "I'm down there, I'm turning in and taking out their knee!"

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:32 PM   #46
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

People intentionally 'throw-down' before irimi nage? yikes. I have no idea how they expect to pick uke up, pull them over their own centreline then dump them again...

I thought you only did that in training as practice for when an attacker follows too far and drops, in which case irimi becomes a neck-throw (buggered if I can remember the name).

Bending people's thumbs/fingers back is quite common and is known as "small joint manipulation" - It can work wonders on a person in a sound(ish) state of mind. Get someone who's 'enraged' or psychotic and they'll often sacrifice the small joint just to smash you one - they just don't care that you snapped three of their fingers. Having said that they're very useful for standard defense and restraint (not that I'm any good at them though :P)
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:31 AM   #47
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Reactions to poor technique and humble request for support

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
people who do that confident throw down before IRIMI NAGE expect you to come up compliantly into their clothesline. "Bah!" I say. "I'm down there, I'm turning in and taking out their knee!"
Now, that's interesting! Is the nage directly pulling you backwards to get you down. If so, I think that's a fair reaction (assuming you have a good enough relationship set up with your partner for that to be mutually productive).

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread, but I'd love to hear what other people normally do as uke when nage tries to force something very low level. Lot's of time, the nage tries to salvage their technique with some atemi(s) that they'll do to basically punish you for not artifically following their terrible set-up. I usually just try to take the best ukemi I can; and if nage starts attacking me, I see if I can use that to throw them (but I err on the side of rolling away if it starts degenerating).

Rob
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Old 01-18-2005, 04:21 PM   #48
maikerus
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
I've had people bend my fingers backwards (very effectively, thank you) as prelude to SANKYO
No argument from me since that is the way we practice it , but the sankyo/sankajo control itself is moving the elbow and shoulder with the joint, not against it.

What I meant to emphasize in my previous post was that if we look at the actual controls themselves, and not the way we get to them then only hijishime and hijiate hyperextend the joint. I agree that there are lots of manipulations go against a joint and that Aikido principles can be applied against many joints and not just those we talk about within basic techniques.

cheers,

--Michael

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Old 01-18-2005, 04:24 PM   #49
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Re: Reactions to poor technique and humble request for support

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Now, that's interesting! Is the nage directly pulling you backwards to get you down.
They fling UKE into his rear SHIKAKU. You end up on all fours. The convention is to come up blithely "unaware" that NAGE is about to cream you. That's just too unrealistic, even for aikido conventions.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-18-2005, 05:36 PM   #50
Colbs
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Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Yeah, often they pretend like they're controlling you by holding your neck with one of their hands... Can anyone say single/double leg takedown?

If an attacker is a bit silly/drunk and you cut their attack to take balance, often they may fall forwards, leading to the situation of them being on all fours. My understanding was that as they fall forwards, it's the perfect opertunity for a neck throw (read neck snap).... Assuming of course you don't mind snapping their neck - if you don't you're better off doing something else - but once's uke's weight is forwards and down, irimi is impossible.
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