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Old 12-21-2004, 11:47 AM   #1
CactusBoy
Dojo: Saboten Ryu Dojo
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Talking Saboten Ryu

I know that Saboten Ryu and Badyna Sensei have both been discussed on this site before, and not in a very good light i might add. It is true that some years ago Sensei Badyna did lie during an interview and retracted some of the things he said some weeks later. This is something i have been aware of for almost a year now. However, Sensei Badyna is now part of my life in a positive way. He is a hard working Aikidoka and Shihan. His 8th degree in Saboten Ryu is recognized by Hanshi Lou Angel and O-Sensei Philip Porter. I have trained with many different degrees of black belts and each has diserved the rank given to them.
Badyna Sensei has a very unique way of teaching. When i first walked into his dojo (and i have been in many) i knew i had found something special. I know for a fact that every single black belt he says he has are earned. He is highly active in the community and has helped many children, including the mentally disabled, to over come many obsticales in their lives.
He is helping me along my path in life and i would have it no other way.
Most of the people who spoke out against him either don't even live in this state or have never met him.
If you think that Badyna Sensei is a joke then come and train with us. We train hard and learn good waza. The dojo doors are open and all are welcome to watch or particapate.
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Old 12-21-2004, 12:42 PM   #2
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Are Lou Angel and Philip Porter aikido masters? According to his website, Sensei Porter has no ranking in Aikido, only judo and jujitsu. By his own website, Sensei Angel's art is karate although he did study jujitsu (he does not cite any rank). He was a 4th dan and then formed his own system and went to 10th dan.

Sensei Badyna started Saboten ryu from what I understand. According to your statement: His 8th degree in Saboten Ryu is recognized by Hanshi Lou Angel and O-Sensei Philip Porter." The key word here is "recognized." Who awarded him the rank of 8th dan in the style he founded? Did he award it to himself? It is easy to get organizations to "recognize" your rank. There are several groups out there that if I pay them the money they will recognize me as a soke/10th dan, professor, doctor-king of the universe if I want. If they awarded him the rank, however, I would have concerns with that since they have no aikido rank. How can someone with no rank in an art award an 8th dan? Anyone can go out and establish an art and get a soke group or other martial arts group to recognize it.

You sensei may be the best aikidoka in the world. Most aikikai 8th dans I think have to be at least 60 years of age and practiced a number of years. I don't know his age however he doesn't look like he's out of his 40s yet. The issue brought up in past threads has nothing to do with his abilities-just his rank claims. Technically, the difference in knowledge of techniques is not that great between a 4th and 8th dan (number of techniques). However, the excution and deeper understanding is significantly different.

I'm glad you are happy with your sensei and what he teaches you. It sounds like other than his past misrepresentations to the media (he still does not identify on his website as to who awarded all these lofty ranks only who recognized them), he does good things for the community. However, credibiity is much more likely to come from realistic claims and identifying one's lineage and source of ranks. Although the aikido community may find those ranks unrealistic and excessive, at least they will be accurately portrayed.
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Old 12-21-2004, 12:50 PM   #3
CactusBoy
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Hanshi Angel Awarded Sensei Badyna a 1st degree in Saboten Ryu, a style created by Sensei Badyna which blends Karate, Jujitsu, weapons, Judo, Aikido and many other arts. Sensei Porter recognized this rankings and awarded 8th degrees in both Jujitsu and Judo this year.
Badyna Sensei has been training since he was six on navy bases. He trained in Japan for sometime and then blended everything he had learned, throwing out the crap and keeping the waza that work. Saboten Ryu is not just Aikido but a blend of different arts with Aikido overtones.
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:33 PM   #4
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Greetings All,

The earlier thread on Keith Badyna is called:

Re: Can I get your thoughts on my Dojo/Sense

Once again, the links to PDFs of the two February 1997 Philadelphia Inquirer articles on Keith Badyna are available at:

http://www.aikido-nova.org/badyna1.pdf
http://www.aikido-nova.org/badyna2.pdf
http://www.aikido-nova.org/badyna3.pdf

The files are large, and it was necessary to split one of the articles in two.

Thanks again to journalist Art Carey of the Inquirer for making thes articles available!

To sum it up: 1) Badyna claimed to be a former Navy SEAL, nicknamed "the Land Shark" because he had killed people during his tour of duty; he later confessed that this was a lie. 2) Badyna claimed to be a seventh-dan aikido shihan who began his training as a child in Japan; he later confessed that this was a lie. 3) Badyna claimed that shortly before Christmas, 1996, he had disarmed a knife-wielding robber near the Pennsylvania Mongomery Mall, and then held the assailant until police arrived; he later confessed that this was a lie.

Here are Badyna's direct quotes from the Philadelphia Inquirer article which exposed him:

"I am not a certified seventh-degree black belt and my black belts in other martial arts are not certified, but I am confident of my knowledge of martial arts and believe my ability speaks for itself. I was not a member of the SEAL team, nor did I ever serve in the US Navy. I did not live or go to school in Japan, or study aikido there four hours a day."

On the Saboten-ryu website (http://www.saboten-ryu.com/), Badyna now claims to be an 8th dan in Saboten-ryu aikido, a style that he created himself. Apart from claiming to have studied Tomiki-ryu aikido "for many years", Badyna does not specify who originally taught him aikido, how long he trained, or what rank he achieved in aikido before creating his own style.

Josh, if you would like to see real aikido seventh and eighth dan instructors, please come to Aikido Shobukan Dojo in Washington, DC (http://www.aikido-shobukan.org/) next week for the Winter Intensive Training. The teachers are Mitsugi Saotome-sensei (an eighth-dan shihan and a direct student of the founder of aikido) and Hiroshi Ikeda-sensei (a seventh-dan aikido shihan and the chief instructor of Boulder Aikikai). Together, these men have over 80 years of experience in aikido.

You're also welcome to visit my dojo, Aikido of Northern Virginia (http://www.aikido-nova.org/), any time. We will host Frank Doran-sensei, a seventh-dan aikido shihan and the chief instructor of Aikido West (http://www.aikido-west.org/) March 18 - 20, 2005. Doran-sensei, a fomer US Marine, began his aikido training in 1959.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:36 PM   #5
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

His site gives one the impression he is an 8th dan in aikido since his site is called Saboten Ryu Aikido. Your statement does not check with his website. Here are the ranks he lists:
Saboten Ryu - 8th Dan
Judo - 7th Dan (American)
Jujitsu - 7th Dan (Free Style)
Kung Fu - 1st Dan (Chow-Gar)
Karate - 1st Dan (Shukokai)
Kenjutsu - 1st Dan
Aikido -3rd Dan (Tomiki)
Shinkendo --1st Dan
Kendo - 1st- Dan
Tae Kwon Do - 1st Dan
Ninjutsu- 2nd Dan
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:42 PM   #6
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

"Saboten Ryu Dojo has been ranked the #1 Aikido / Kenjutsu in the United States by the World head of the family Sokeship council and the United States Martial Arts Association for the last 3 years." From his site. Also he refers to the art as Saboten Ryu Aikido in numerous places throughout the site. When he shows his rank at 8th dan in Saboten Ryu-one would have to assume it is in Saboten Ryu Aikido since it is the only term on his sight that Saboten Ryu refers.
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:54 PM   #7
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Hello Mr. Riggs,

I missed Mr. Badyna's claim that he has a third dan in Tomiki Aikido.

Josh, would Mr. Badyna be kind enough to tell us who was his teacher in Tomiki-ryu, exactly when he studied Tomiki-ryu, and the date and number on his third-dan certificate?

Since Mr. Badyna has an e-mail address (according to the Saboten-ryu website, it's bmfr28@aol.com), perhaps he would even be willing to join this discussion.

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:24 AM   #8
CactusBoy
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Why are both of your feathers so ruffled? So maybe Badyna Sensei did lie about somethings at some point in his life but who hasn't. Both of you claim to be true Aikidoka but I think you fail to see the true meaning of Aikido. It is not just a means of self defense but a means of self awareness and self growth. If Badyna Sensei teaches good technique and works hard and learns from his mistakes then what does it matter to you what belt he has. He'll be the first to tell you BELTS DON"T MATTER. Why should you care what ranks were awarded to anyone or whether they diserve them or not? Everyone in the martial arts word is so critical of everyone else. This is not the way of a true martial artist. Neither of you have ever met Badyna Sensei nor have you trained with him. Before you believe anything you read you should see things with your own eyes.
When I first read Badyna Senseis bio I didn't believe that he had all those belts, but I trained with him and learned where his style of self defense pulled it's many different techniques from.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:48 AM   #9
Dazzler
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Quote:
Josh Mullen wrote:
Why are both of your feathers so ruffled? So maybe Badyna Sensei did lie about somethings at some point in his life but who hasn't. Both of you claim to be true Aikidoka but I think you fail to see the true meaning of Aikido. It is not just a means of self defense but a means of self awareness and self growth. If Badyna Sensei teaches good technique and works hard and learns from his mistakes then what does it matter to you what belt he has. He'll be the first to tell you BELTS DON"T MATTER. Why should you care what ranks were awarded to anyone or whether they diserve them or not? Everyone in the martial arts word is so critical of everyone else. This is not the way of a true martial artist. Neither of you have ever met Badyna Sensei nor have you trained with him. Before you believe anything you read you should see things with your own eyes.
When I first read Badyna Senseis bio I didn't believe that he had all those belts, but I trained with him and learned where his style of self defense pulled it's many different techniques from.
I think it matters because aikido is very important to the people here on this forum.

I've never heard of the guy so have no personal axe to grind.

All I'd say is if he hasn't got any credible aikido qualifications then this thread belongs in the aikido frauds section.

No matter how good he is or isn't...If he's not aikido qualified then to claim otherwise is wrong.

FACT.

D
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:02 AM   #10
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

I never made any claims about being anything. I just pointed out observations and asked questions. You brought this issue back since it had died on the other thread.

Belts Don't Matter is a tired old statement that is generally made by three types of aikidoka in my experience: 1. Aikidoka who train around and don't stick with anything and never earn rank-I call these people dabblers. They seem to be in search of something. 2. True people who train for the sake of training and if they test its usually because the sensei makes them. 3. Aikidoka with inflated ranks. My question to them is if rank doesn't matter why is it necessary to inflate your ranks and make questionable claims about your background. There is probably a 4th category of combinations. I know of one where the guy claimed he didn't care about ranks and never wanted to test yet later went to one of the soke organizations and got himself promoted to a 7th dan shihan in his own style of aikido. Go figure. Apparently, rank did matter.
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:05 AM   #11
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

P.S. As pointed out by Daren it does matter to some on this forum. We don't want to see the art go the way of some of the other arts where the rank only matters within the dojo. Although there are different major organization and different ranking structures they at least exist and there is some form of consistency. I did a mini check yesterday and could come up with 6 groups off the top of my head that have set up their own "styles" and all have lofty ranks and all have them certified through one of the soke groups. That was a brief look. I hate to think what I can find if I was seriously looking.
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:56 AM   #12
rob_liberti
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Quote:
Josh Mullen wrote:
Both of you claim to be true Aikidoka but I think you fail to see the true meaning of Aikido. It is not just a means of self defense but a means of self awareness and self growth. If Badyna Sensei teaches good technique and works hard and learns from his mistakes then what does it matter to you what belt he has. He'll be the first to tell you BELTS DON"T MATTER.
If belts don't matter to him and they do matter to us, and you are looking for our acceptance then the obvious solution is for him to say he has no rank in aikido. It wouldn't matter to him, we'd be satisfied, and we'd offer our acceptance of his "other" martial art.

On the other hand, do you have a rank? Does your belt matter to you? If I just showed up to your dojo and said I was the highest belt in your system - but could offer no proof - would you let me teach class and pay me for promotions and seminars? Would you be outraged at my audacity? Well if you were a "true aikidoka" you'd just go alone with it, right?!.

According to your profile, you are in PA, and Jim Sorrentino teaches in North Virginia. Why don't you go down and visit him and see for yourself if he is a "true Aikidoka"?

Instead of prevaricating and dismissing us as arrogant traditional aikido folks, lets keep with blame with the people who made up fake credentials and claimed to be our peers and seniors. I am, however, very happy to read that this man owned up to his false claims. That is certainly positive and much more respectable than many others who will never have the courage to be righteous.

Rob
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:26 AM   #13
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Josh,

You asked:

Quote:
Why are both of your feathers so ruffled? So maybe Badyna Sensei did lie about somethings at some point in his life but who hasn't.
So has Mr. Badyna personally admitted to you and his other students that his claim to be seventh dan in aikido, his claim to be an aikido shihan, and his claim to have been a US Navy SEAL were all lies?

Let me put it another way: I am a lawyer licensed to practice in the State of Maryland. In my profession, there are serious penalties for misleading the public about one's credentials and experience. These penalties exist for at least two reasons: 1) lying is wrong; and 2) lying about credentials and experience is a method that con-artists use to rob the unsuspecting public. If you were injured in a car accident, and you hired someone who told you he was a graduate of Harvard Law School, first in his class, and a leader of the Pennsylvania Bar Association, and then you found out that this was all a lie, would you still be confident of his ability to represent you in court? And would you blame real lawyers for being angry with the fraudulent con-artists who give the profession a bad name?

In the US, the general public has no deep knowledge of Asian martial arts, and hence, it is very easy for someone to claim to be something he is not, especially if he has some charisma and athletic ability. The closest martial arts equivalent of Consumer Reports Magazine (R) are websites such as AikiWeb and E-Budo, in which people may seek out information about questionable claims by individuals such as Mr. Badyna. I replied to your initial post in order to help expose the truth about Mr. Badyna's claims.

You also said:

Quote:
Both of you claim to be true Aikidoka but I think you fail to see the true meaning of Aikido. It is not just a means of self defense but a means of self awareness and self growth.
How will aikido promote self-awareness and self-growth if we allow aikido teachers who practice deception to go unchallenged?

And you said:

Quote:
If Badyna Sensei teaches good technique and works hard and learns from his mistakes then what does it matter to you what belt he has. He'll be the first to tell you BELTS DON"T MATTER. Why should you care what ranks were awarded to anyone or whether they diserve them or not?
If belts and rank don't matter, then Mr. Badyna should have no problem posting the actual rank he achieved in Tomiki-ryu, an established aikido system. There should be no need for him to make up additional ranks, belts, and other degrees.

Finally, you said:

Quote:
Everyone in the martial arts word is so critical of everyone else. This is not the way of a true martial artist. Neither of you have ever met Badyna Sensei nor have you trained with him. Before you believe anything you read you should see things with your own eyes.
It seems to me that much of the politics and silliness that pervades the martial arts in the US has come about because of peoples' exaggerations about their skill and rank. If aikido and other martial arts are ever to achieve a place in Western society as valuable pursuits of knowledge, we who practice sincerely must guard against the temptation to confuse external symbols of rank with real excellence. One does not need a Harvard diploma in order to be a sage, but a real sage does not need to claim to have a Harvard diploma if that is not the truth.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:06 AM   #14
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Ahh the French shoe style.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:13 AM   #15
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Yeah, that's what I though when I opened this thread. The art of Shoe Tossing into the Works....

Q
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:00 AM   #16
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Re: Saboten Ryu

-age = an action
-en = to cause to be
sabot-age = to use wooden shoes (for espionage or to promote worker's rites)
sabot-en = to change something to be more like wooden shoes
saboten ryu = the aikido style that changes you into cheap western European footwear
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:17 AM   #17
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Benjamin: Is that the French translation? Funny translation.
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:48 PM   #18
CactusBoy
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Re: Saboten Ryu

First off... i don't want to sue my Sensei. Second, Saboten means cactus. Third, I am not the one who brought all this up. I posted this thread as a responce to what other people were posting on my Introduction Thread. I just wanted people to hear about the real Keith Badyna. But it seems that all anyone wants to do is discredit him because of a belt and peice of paper. This man does know what he is talking about. How would any of you feel if some one you had never met or never trained with and had never seen you on videos was discrediting something you had worked your whole life to obtain? You talk about tradition and having one set system. That is fine. but that may not be the answer that is need. Maybe instead of closing doors you should open them. Instead of taking sides you should try to erase the lines. I have been hurt by some of the things that have been said on this site about MY dojo and MY sensei. Should I go down the path of Aikido never saying my senseis name or what style i took. As i see it, if my waza works and my mind is in the right place and i have found my center then why should any thing such as names and ranks and styles matter.


Be like water man.
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:50 PM   #19
CactusBoy
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Re: Saboten Ryu

By the way... Mr. Riggs was one of the people that made me feel "welcome" on my intro post
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:19 PM   #20
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Josh,
Quote:
Third, I am not the one who brought all this up. I posted this thread as a responce to what other people were posting on my Introduction Thread. I just wanted people to hear about the real Keith Badyna.
You were the one who brought this all up. Your post was in praise of Mr. Badyna. Please don't try to back out now.
Quote:
But it seems that all anyone wants to do is discredit him because of a belt and peice of paper. This man does know what he is talking about.
If he knows what he is talking about, then why is it necessary for him to claim to be something he is not?
Quote:
How would any of you feel if some one you had never met or never trained with and had never seen you on videos was discrediting something you had worked your whole life to obtain?
The point is, Mr. Badyna's claims to be an aikido seventh dan, an aikido shihan, and a former US Navy SEAL, were, by his own admission, lies. And they were BIG lies, which he attempted to spread through the Philadelphia Inquirer. He got caught. He admitted that he lied. He did not "work [his] whole life to obtain" his phony credentials.
Quote:
Maybe instead of closing doors you should open them.
That's why I encouraged you to visit Aikido Shobukan Dojo to see Saotome-sensei and Ikeda-sensei, and Aikido of Northern Virginia to see Doran-sensei.
Quote:
I have been hurt by some of the things that have been said on this site about MY dojo and MY sensei.
The truth hurts --- but following lies hurts more.
Quote:
Should I go down the path of Aikido never saying my senseis name or what style i took.
If you're not up for dealing with criticism based on facts, yes.
Quote:
As i see it, if my waza works and my mind is in the right place and i have found my center then why should any thing such as names and ranks and styles matter
Again, I ask you: if rank does not matter, then why does Mr. Badyna hold himself out to the world as an aikido eighth dan and shihan? Why did he claim to be a former SEAL?

And by the way, are you aware that there is an aikido club at the US Naval Academy (http://www.geocities.com/navyaikido/)? I suspect they would be very unhappy to encounter a phony SEAL --- especially when real SEALs are out there fighting and dying.

Good luck with your training.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:20 PM   #21
aikidoc
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Josh: I never criticized your instructors techniques. I have no way of knowing his skills. My only contention is if he is good he does not need all the stuff on his site to detract from his credibility. It got him into trouble in his newspaper interview.

This thread should probably die a quiet death. Your sensei will not likely clean up his site and people here are not likely to change their opinions on it.
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:52 PM   #22
Michael Hackett
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Re: Saboten Ryu

I once read that the quality of an educational institution was based on the contributions to society made by its students. I suppose that's equally true of aikido as well. If you are proud of your teacher and what he teaches Josh, go for it and contribute to the body of knowledge of aikido and the martial arts.

I share Sorrentino Sensei's concern about integrity. I spent my life in an organization where lying got you fired, even if it was something that would have resulted in a fanny-chewing was the underlying action. Lie, you die was the mantra. I have serious heartburn with the reputation for integrity of anyone who claims to have been a SEAL combat veteran - saw too many phony veterans over the years and they all seemed to have been SEALS or Force Recon Marines. Maybe my heartburn is worse because I live near the back gate of Camp Pendleton where some real warriors of integrity reside.

Michael
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:57 PM   #23
Lan Powers
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Always nice when a "claimer" meets the authentic article....I have witnessed a couple of those sort of encounters.
Lan

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Old 12-22-2004, 09:29 PM   #24
Don_Modesto
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Saboten

Why cactus, btw?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:55 PM   #25
MikeE
 
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Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
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Re: Saboten Ryu

Danzan (Sandalwood) was taken

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
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