Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-28-2004, 01:03 PM   #176
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

"And this is what people have to learn for themselves. It's no different than learning how to judge a good steak, or how to avoid being ripped off by a used car dealer - one learns these things through life experience.

Why would you assume that you need to tell people how to judge good Aikido? For me that's part of the learning process"

Judging good aikido being a learning process I would agree with. However, judging fraud may be something that needs a boost. Should we just let people get ripped off by these frauds and assume it is part of the learning process? I feel we should help them see the truth since we can only rely on frauds to manipulate the truth. Ghandi felt we should always speak the truth though with gentle language (I'd say with gentle and careful language to avoid lawsuits).

There are many out there with good aikido and bad values or integrity. Should we let those who lie and cheat the public do so with impunity or should we raise the awareness. I have no problems with someone wanting to train with someone who has good aikido and poor values if that is what they chose to do-free will. I do have a problem with their lies being represented as what aikido is about and major qualms with people claiming they do aikido with no legitimate background in the art.

As David notes the threat is starting to sputter, however, I think in the long run the discussion far exceeded what I had hoped for when I posted it. I do appreciate all the thought and comments given to the ideas discussed. I also appreciate the restraint exercised in not commenting on specific individuals or groups.

I think we all recognize that frauds are inevitable and not likely to go away, especially if they think there is a buck to be made. However, raising awareness and communicating with our students and the public may help shed light on these crooks. Establishing and demonstrating good morals and values and being willing to communicate our credentials and how we got them will go a long way toward credibility. The frauds are generally not willing to do those things. They make vague references to their history and lineage and inaccuracies abound. The majority of their background is extremely difficult to verify (probably since it is fabricated). Independents and traditional schools can go a long way helping the public understand these things without criticizing each other based of stylistic or lineage differences. Such valid backgrounds should be perpetuated in their own traditions. I do however think all martial artists should be wary of the traps of soke organizations and the limited credibility of such groups that abound and sell ranks for money and certify ranks with no lineage in aikido themselves. Joining such groups and receiving rank from them not only perpetuates the problem but puts you in the same questionable arena. I'd be all for an international validation body or website but I think this is not likely to receive much support. Too much ego and turf issues would make it fail.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 01:18 PM   #177
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
And this is what people have to learn for themselves. It's no different than learning how to judge a good steak, or how to avoid being ripped off by a used car dealer - one learns these things through life experience.

Why would you assume that you need to tell people how to judge good Aikido? For me that's part of the learning process.

Ruth
Ruth,

Please allow me to assist you. If I'm invited to demonstrate to a group of potential students as to why aikido is different from other MA; this what I would do:

1. I will break a brick with a knife hand strike, break a second one with an open palm strike and the third one with a punch.
2. I will place a 1 inch thick wooden board at angle against wall and proceed to break it to halves with my heel.
3. I will invite a member of the group to attack me using frontal strikes, diagonal strikes (hook punch, upper cut) and I will proceed to demonstrate to them how easily, either with and without kuzushi, to touch the vital parts and joints of the attacker's body using the strikes/blows/kicks demonstrated in 1 and 2 above.
4. Having done all the above, I will tell the audience that what they just seen are not the practice and intention of PURE aikido.
5. I will then attempt to demonstrate the immobilization techniques of aikido against those types of attack.

The point is not that I'm against the use of atemi in aikido. On the contrary, I believe in the use of controlled atemi as much as controlled kuzushi. Once in a while, I have been accused of giving "charity" falls due to uncontrolled kuzushi (I will leave the stories for another day).

Back to the point of judging "good" or "bad" aikido. Ruth, absolutely agreed with you that this is part of the learning process. I hold yudansha ranks in karate (both sports and traditional schools) and aikido from legitimate international organizations (names withheld to protect the innocents) - these IMHO probably help to shorten my learning curves in both chosen arts.

I have trained with 1st kyu students and yudansha in a particular dojo - they absolutely believe that the ONLY way to bring the uke down to lock them in ikkyo is to apply pressure or strike to the uke' elbow joints. As far as I know, ikkyo is one of the first techniques taught to beginners at all dojo and it is the basic and most fundamental aikido technique. Doesn't the saying, "You judge the quality of the teacher by the quality of his students" meant anything here?

At another, I have seen a senior instructor in a legitimate organization flipping his uke with kotegaeshi; just as the uke was about to break the fall with his free hand, the instructor yanked the uke up into the air again with the uke's other arm oblivious to the injury that can be caused to the uke then and in future. This and amongst other techniques of disallowing the uke to have a clean breakfall have since become a trade mark of this instructor in various embusen given by the organization. As I have said earlier in this thread (a post that has been judged to be irrelevant), different people has different ethical motives when selecting a MA to train in. Whether they will eventually grow up - no one can tell. Though this thread dealt on aikido frauds - people with no or little credentials in aikido - they are not much different with the people in legitimate organizations who dish out "bad" aikido. So without the experience of training with some of these aikido frauds (within or without legitimate organizations), who are we to judge?

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 02:28 PM   #178
Alvin H. Nagasawa
Dojo: YBA/HBAC Honolulu, HI
Location: San Jose CA.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Frauds: A person(or thing) that is not what he (it) seems or pretends to be. from O.A.Dictionary@1980

? What is your definition. If you understand its meaning, You are on the right path. If not re access your training, look at your self in the mirror.

If you are a Aikido student with experience you should see through the individual.

If there teacher's condone their actions, What can I say. (end of subject) its a internal matter. The individuals conduct can be only corrected by their respected Dojo Cho.

The Lone Wolf of San Jose

Lone Wolf of San Jose
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 06:31 PM   #179
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 801
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

A solution: The Aikikai lists all its dan grades on its website. Other associations follow suit.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 06:59 PM   #180
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
By your reasoning then, I can break away from my present organisation as a junior dan grade. Set up on my own and then assume the rank of 6th dan in the style of aikido previously studied as a junior dan grade.

Legit or not ?
If you award yourself a dan rank and you are clear and open about where it came from I see no problem. That must be, after all, where ranking systems originate: someone who has no formal rank in the system gives rank, either to themself or to their student. This must continue to happen as new martial arts styles are invented. If you're not really any good, well, your new art or style will end up in the dustbin of history.

If you award yourself a dan rank and then claim it came from Association X when it didn't, well, that's lying--why would it be okay?

The two cases seem utterly different to me.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 07:06 PM   #181
Holly Nesbeitt
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
"And this is what people have to learn for themselves. It's no different than learning how to judge a good steak, or how to avoid being ripped off by a used car dealer - one learns these things through life experience. Why would you assume that you need to tell people how to judge good Aikido? For me that's part of the learning process"
Aside from it simply being wrong for people to lie about their credentials, rip off others in the process, and leech business from honest dojos, there's also a safety issue. Would you say that learning to find a good heart or brain surgeon is just one of those life learning experiences? Or would you rather have surgeons strictly regulated, so that you can trust that whomever you go to will be at least competent, and have medical malpractice laws to fall back on should something go wrong?

OK, aikido isn't as risky as surgery. But you are still learning to fall in a variety of ways, receive techniques, throw people across the room, and manipulate sensitive joints. I doubt that anyone loony and greedy enough to set themselves up as Soke Grand Poobah 20th dan is going to care much for your and your partner's safety. And SGP will probably have made you sign a waiver stating that no one is liable if someone gets hurt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 07:50 PM   #182
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
OK, aikido isn't as risky as surgery
.

Now there's where I'd say I disagree. There have been deaths and paralysis attributed to aikido. The safety issue is an interesting point. I wonder what the legal liability issues would be of injuring someone while claiming to be something you are not?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 07:54 PM   #183
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,059
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Your own post mate.

With due respect to everyone I'll bow out of this discussion as it is rapidly going now where. I think my views and opinions are well lamented on this subject and I have no wish to merely p*ss people off by repeating what I've said before.

After all I wasn't actually going to contribute to this thread

Regards to all for the New Year
Followed immediately by
Quote:
In my opinion, in the context of the organization, the grade is completely valid.
Where exactly did I say it was outside the organization he founded.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 07:55 PM   #184
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
A solution: The Aikikai lists all its dan grades on its website. Other associations follow suit.
I like the idea but it would be a behemoth undertaking which I doubt the aikikai or anyone else would like to take on.

Aikido Journal has a place where one can post their certificate. I like that idea-although I'm sure that could be forged as well. Although it would be tougher to forge an aikikai certificate since it has a water mark on it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 07:57 PM   #185
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,059
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
A solution: The Aikikai lists all its dan grades on its website. Other associations follow suit.
That wouldn't work - privacy issues. Unless of course Dan grade holders could choose to be listed or not.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 08:10 PM   #186
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
A solution: The Aikikai lists all its dan grades on its website. Other associations follow suit.
If these guys can do it...

http://bjj.org/a/ranks.html

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 08:16 PM   #187
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Wow. They have all their ranks listed. Lot of work. I don't know how the privacy issue plays out internationally. It would definitely be an issue in the states. But if it was kept up to date, it would be easy to see who is lying about rank.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 08:28 PM   #188
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,059
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

I need to point out that in Japan this is probably far less of a problem with respect to Aikido if it exists at all. It might be hard to convince them of the need.

Why not a voluntary data base where entries are confirmed by the parent organization. There is no reason that could not work.

Would it do any good? Probably not.

In the US the JAA(USA) maintains a list of dojos. In Japan Shodokan maintains a list of dojos both internationally and nationally.

I think this is just as good.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 09:07 PM   #189
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 801
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
If these guys can do it...

http://bjj.org/a/ranks.html
What an excellent site - I clicked on one of my mates I know to have a BB and he was there. Indeed, it even included his lineage. Excellent stuff.

Few will be able to set themselves up with false credentials in BJJ, that's for sure.

Come to think of it, I recall a UK school that had all their dan grades listed for their own org. Not sure which it was right now.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2004, 10:51 PM   #190
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

The Aikikai lists all dan ranks awarded in the "Aikido Shimbun". They are classified by rank in the order of yudansha in Japan, yudansha abroad, and yudansha in university clubs in Japan. The first 500-odd issues were recently issued on CD-Rom. There is a database, but, since information is given strictly on a need-to-know basis, I doubt very much whether this would ever be made available to the general public.

If it were to be shown that there was a worldwide problem of people fraudulently claiming to have Aikikai grades, this would be a strong case for some sort of official list of dan ranks on a web site. A thread such as this, which discusses dubious and fraudulent grades and titles in general\mainly in the US ans without mentioning any specific cases, would not constitute a strong case. The Aikikai is simply not concerned with dan ranks outside its own organization.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 01:23 AM   #191
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

The older menkyo system of koryu seems to be quite different from that described in many people's posts regarding aikido. When koryu was genuine training in contemporary military arts, (it wasn't "ko" ryu then), people got menkyo kaiden as soon as their instructor deemed them "roadworthy." In Meiji, for example, I've seen menkyo kaiden that were achieved in five years. Age was also not a consideration in most ryu. Murakami Hideo became 17th generation menkyo kaiden/shihan in Toda-ha Buko-ryu in her mid-twenties. In short, menkyo meant that the training wheels were off - one learned all one needed to know to pass on the tradition in it's true form, and would polish one's skills in the real world, not in a dependent never-ending involvement with the teacher.

Aikido, too, used to be ranked very differently. Didn't Mochizuki receive a menkyo kaiden in AikiBudo or Daito-ryu from Ueshiba after only a few years of practice? Thus, disturbance about the length of time in which someone gets 8th dan, or 6th dan seems out of place, as that length of time is determined within the organization. I was amazed how little time it took to get rank in Japan, as opposed to the states, within Aikikai organizations. For example, I received nidan within three years from my first aikido class. In the states, at least in the seventies, it would have taken a lot longer.

Fraud has some different implications now than it used to. There were several limits on fraudulent lineage or claims in older Japan. First of all, if you were employed by a daimyo or other official, you would be defrauding the government - rather a risky proposition. Secondly, dojo yaburi was always a failsafe. (One of my instructors, very old school, demanded I break some dojos. Upon my reply that they hadn't caused me any harm, he replied, "They insulted you. They put up a sign in public announcing themselves. This is a direct challenge to you because they are saying that you are no threat to them, even though YOU are in the same town.")

Today, not only are challenges defined as harassment or even assault both in Japan and the States, but in addition, the public is quite uneducated and thus easily fooled. This is a shame, particularly for sincere, truly eager to learn young people, who trustingly enter a relationship with a fraud - either on a technical or a moral level (they are liars, aren't they). The students lose an opportunity to learn something solid and instead receive something corrupt.

Of course, lineage is no guarantee, particularly in big organizations, which are as much political as martial. But at least one can trace things back to the source. WIth the self-created lines, obscured in a fog of fantasy or allusion, it's much harder to clear up the gold from the dross. At hte same time, as for other ryu, I do agree with the other posters who say that it's not my business. I might have personal opinions but budo isn't religion and becoming a missionary of the true way is not an edifying role.

By the way, some people who may, for various reasons, leave an organization, may object that they have to have some way to get rank, or how can they get students/how can they get respect/how can they pass on what they have learned/created/achieved in the years since. And so they go to various organizations to receive their rank, or simply rank themselves. Speaking for myself, that nidan I got in the late 70's was the last official rank in aikido I ever received. I've never been tempted to join any group to move up further in rank. I just train. And I continue to be invited to various dojo where people up to 6th dan happily take my classes. I point this out not to brag, but simply to point out that the aikido commuinity is, on the whole a lot bigger than those desirious of certification thru rank are willing to give it credit. Rightly or wrongly - opinions vary - many find value in what I teach, and nobody gives a 2nd thought what rank I am or am not.

Best

Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 07:05 AM   #192
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Great comments Ellis. One of your points is well taken-if your skills are what is important, why do some of these frauds have to make themselves 10th dan soke professor doctor grand poopah? I've seen sites where rank, soke, doctor and professor titles were all used in one sentence to impress the public. Ego? Inferiority complex? Con? Pathological liar? True master? Combination? The aikikai takes a strong stance on what they consider aikido-probably why they don't recognize any other gradings-yet they are not concerned about people using the name aikido fraudulently.

It is interesting to note they keep everything on a CD and verify on need to know basis.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 07:59 AM   #193
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Today's Non-Sequiter comic made me think of this thread. Danae was talking with her horse and he was commenting on truthfulness. She states she hopes for "truthful accuracy" and gives the example of being voted by her teachers as the "underachiever of the year" which she states on her resume would be shown as an "academic award winner." I guess you can spin anything these days and make it look impressive. Truth in advertising vs. truthful accuracy. I like that term. Some of the faudulent aikidoka sites I have seen are just careful enough with their claims that technically "truthful accuracy" is achieved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 10:35 AM   #194
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
That wouldn't work - privacy issues. Unless of course Dan grade holders could choose to be listed or not.
only those listed that are teaching any public classes

I find it kind of odd if someone is teaching classes to the public to be objecting to only their name and dan rank being available in a public online database maintained by their organization.

why not parse it down in to managable junks ?

however an organization breaks up it's regions, by country or whatever,
there is a locally managed online database of yudansha instructors.
The HQ has links to the verified sites of these local online databases.

or some system of breaking it down into to managable bits.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 11:44 AM   #195
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

I agree with Craig. What privacy issues? Why would anyone object to that kind of information being publicly available? Or am I missing something in Peter's post? If so, then please enlighten me.

R
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 11:55 AM   #196
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Some instructors are very cautious what they have written about them. I know of one shihan who prefers not to have his picture up and much information put out about him. He does not want to infringe on anything the aikikai is doing. He's a very humble and kind man and an 8th dan shihan as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 05:23 PM   #197
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Here's an article I ran across by Wayne over at Furyu: http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto4.html

It is about fakes in koryu
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 07:34 PM   #198
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,059
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

Hey don't look at me. I would put my name in there and most people have a pretty good idea who I am.

However, not all information about me do I want put out on the Internet and who am I to say you must. I am sure there are people who do not want anything about them publicly posted and in some locals it is illegal to make that assumption.

If one of my current or potential students needs to know more about me with respect to my place at Honbu or my right and ability to teach he asks Honbu.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 08:01 PM   #199
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

[quote=Peter Rehse]

However, not all information about me do I want put out on the Internet and who am I to say you must. I am sure there are people who do not want anything about them publicly posted and in some locals it is illegal to make that assumption.

We're not talking about "all information," just name and dan rank. Its no different from a university keeping on its website a list of all its graduates. if it were more than that, I agree there might be a problem. But with such minimal data requirements, I still don't quite get what the problem is. Perhaps I am slow on the uptake.


R
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2004, 08:11 PM   #200
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,059
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido Frauds

I know some people very coy about doing martial arts. One of my own students travels over an hour each way just so no one can find out (I'm not that great a teacher).

Now one of his friends does a google search on his name and guess what.

Again - if my organization created a public data base I would say go right ahead but not everyone feels this way.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 05:29 AM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 06:15 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 12:22 PM
Article: Aikido Now in Brunei AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 09-20-2005 07:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:03 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate