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Old 12-26-2004, 11:29 AM   #126
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Chris,

None of the organisations you mention or indeed any organisation in the world will be remotely interested in 'administering' any form of control over any 'other' group.

The fees we pay to our respective organisations have nothing to do with the possible control of the less than legit nobjocky who has alterior motives behind calling himself a soke, professor, 10th dan etc etc. For exactly the same reason why the Aikikai in Japan couldn't give two monkey's about those proclaiming to teach Aikikai Aikido when they don't.

Dave
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Old 12-26-2004, 03:22 PM   #127
akiy
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Hi everyone,

Once again, let's keep specific names of people and organizations out of this thread. Thanks.

-- Jun

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Old 12-26-2004, 05:53 PM   #128
RonRagusa
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Two quotes from "The Art of Peace" by John Stevens that seem to be relevant to this thread:

"...Do not concern yourself with the right and wrong of others. Do not be calculating or act unnaturally. Keep your mind set on the Art of Peace, and do not critize other teachers or traditions. The Art of Peace never restrains, restricts or shackles anything. It embraces all and sacrifices everything."

and

As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

O-Sensei seems to have foreseen the eventuality of the subject of this thread.
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Old 12-26-2004, 06:53 PM   #129
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Ron,

I guess you look upon the wide world with rose tinted glasses.

I genuinely hope no one you know gets suckered by the type of people we've been discussing in this thread. Because the words of a man long returned to the source will have ZERO solice. No matter how meaningful they may appear.

However; each to their own. I respect the sentiments behind the words of the founder but, IMHO I don't feel they are entirely relevant today - But that's just me.

Happy New Year
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Old 12-26-2004, 07:08 PM   #130
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
"...Do not concern yourself with the right and wrong of others. Do not be calculating or act unnaturally. Keep your mind set on the Art of Peace, and do not critize other teachers or traditions. The Art of Peace never restrains, restricts or shackles anything. It embraces all and sacrifices everything."
Actually I agree with the above quote in the context of the thread (though I believe the next to last word was "purifies" and not "sacrifices").

Of course the whole point (which you appear to have been missing) is not about "other teachers or traditions" but about people who have no actual right (or knowledge) to be teaching what they say they are teaching (i.e. are not teachers) and have never/hardly actually experienced/trained in the tradition they profess to be preserving (hence no tradition either). So the quote does actually indirectly support the thread in question. These are not "teachers of the way trying to preserve the Aikido tradition" but "conmen out to make a quick buck through falsified credentials and lies."

Will you willingly study for an electrical engineering degree under a lecturer who has a PHD in basket weaving? Or worse a lecturer who bought his Engineering PHD certificates online for $9.99?

If you want another quote from T.A.O.P.: "The Way of a Warrior is based on humanity, love and sincerity; the heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom love and friendship."

Where is the humanity of a person who is over a number of years unfairly taking your money and teaching you something that he knows that he is not trained or qualified to teach?

Where is the love of a person who misleads you and attempts to imprison your mind from the truth as a means to support and propagate his fraud while blocking you from that which can shed the light of truth on your own training to help you progress?

Where is the sincerity of someone who lies to you about his training history, his lineage and his credentials to make a quick buck off your ignorance?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."
Personally I have found that criticizing myself and competing with others in a friendly atmosphere a great tool towards learning and not deluding myself with my own BS. So I'd say competition and criticism not only strengthens the individual, it opens one's eyes to the "good" and "bad" elements of training that can create an opening for poor and delusional training practices and ultimately a poor and delusional Budoka.

In this same way we must use the fraudsters as a training tool to challenge us to maintain the highest standards in our own training and make us desire to present and propagate our Aikido in its most powerful form to those who seek to understand the truth about Aikido.

"Be grateful even for hardships, setbacks, and bad people. Dealing with such obstacles is an essential part of training in the Art of Peace."

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 12-26-2004, 08:13 PM   #131
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"...Do not concern yourself with the right and wrong of others. Do not be calculating or act unnaturally. Keep your mind set on the Art of Peace, and do not critize other teachers or traditions. The Art of Peace never restrains, restricts or shackles anything. It embraces all and sacrifices everything."

The operative here is "other teachers or traditions". I have a difficult time putting someone who gets a 10th dan soke organization leader who is wanted for fraud (actual case) and who is not an aikidoka certifying his aikido rank an other teacher or tradition. This person deserves no respect and is simply perpetuating a fraud. He is definitely not a teacher and definitely not another tradition-at least an aikido tradition. Again, this is not about independents or orther legitimately trained people.


As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

I admit I fall guilty of the criticizing element and labeling good or bad-if by calling a fraud a fraud meets that then I fall in that category hook line and sinker. Personally, I'm not concerning myself with such a fraud since I'm pretty sure I've seen enough of the warning signs that my bs detector will forewarn me. However, I see no conflict in concerning myself with the issue when it involves someone not having the experience or background to detect such cons. I'm definitely not competing with them. I'd love to expose them so they'd go away. They are a reality and as such ignoring them does not make them any less so. Raising the level of awareness and hopefully planting the right seeds will allow people who may be taken in by charismatic charletans to reality check the situation. I'm sure their karma will catch up with them down the road but perhaps spotlighting the types of behaviors exhibited by such people will speed that process up. The 10th dan kareteka with a fraud warrant awarding a 5th dan aikido rank especially when this person, from what I and a friend knowledgable about this person have been able to find (neither the awarder or the recepient), has ever held any rank in any aikido organization-traditional or independent is definitely perpetuating a false reality. I feel this is a problem for the other legitimate instructors in the area. Reality is reality and hopefully threads like this can shed light for people being cheated by at least making them think that the reality presented by the fraud may just not be real. Buddhism is the study of reality and removal of illusion. I'm all for removing the illusion. The decisions made after that are the choice of the individual.

Last edited by aikidoc : 12-26-2004 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 12-26-2004, 08:31 PM   #132
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

A question to all...

Does your Sensei claim to have a dan grade in "Budo" ?

If so where, when and with whom was this grade obtained ?

I know of 4 "Sensei" here in the UK who proclaim such grades in the public domain.

I have yet to cross the path of a Japanese instructor who holds budo dan grades. Indeed I know of a professor in Japan who holds academic qualifications, but this is entirely different to a dan grade as awarded for martial skills.

One such attempt to "explain" how a person obtained grades in Budo was... after a person has Yudansha in three separate arts. Presumably one 'awards' one's self with this accolade then ? Highly credible. Not!

Grades in Budo are IMO pure unadulterated bullshit adorned to merely pad out experience. Another example of egotistical behaviour from some who care less about tradition and more about image.

Dave
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Old 12-26-2004, 09:19 PM   #133
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Dave,

Thanks for the reply.

I can understand that no organization is interested in policing other organizations. Please forgive the question but what role does the organization play? What do you get for your fees/dues? If the answer is rank and certification then I would think that there would be some interest in maintaining the legitimacy of that rank and certification. From a pure business perspective I woudl think any of the organizations would have a vested interest in not having ranks and lineage diluted or fabricated...

I'm also now curious about this hypersensitivity to naming groups and organizations. Who got sued?

Chris
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Old 12-26-2004, 10:43 PM   #134
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Chris: I think organizations generally will require you to pay membership fees.. If you cease to pay, you cease to be a member.
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Old 12-26-2004, 11:14 PM   #135
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Closer to home than you might think ...

I have been to more than a few dojos and I can honestly say I have come across a couple of suspect, yet supposably legitimate, ones too ... Sometimes, even legit orgs just grade people too fast to open up new clubs.

I also know of stories where two competing legit UK orgs graded their instructors in similar regions so as to be of a higher grade than the opposition in their quest for authority.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 12-26-2004 at 11:18 PM.

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Old 12-26-2004, 11:20 PM   #136
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
...I'm also now curious about this hypersensitivity to naming groups and organizations. Who got sued?

Chris
Hi Chris..

Well I for one have been threatened with legal action (although the less said about that person the better) Nothing came of the threat BTW.

Oh I've also been physically threatend several times mainly via emails (lol)

Speaking generally, I think legal action is a mathematical certainty. Not if or whom but when.

Dave
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:46 AM   #137
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

So after all this what are you going to do about it.

An International database maintained by an outside party? Frankly I wouldn't put my name on it and what guarantee do I have that its not just another Grand Soke Phoobah site albeit for lesser mortals.

My organization has a list but you wont find me on it. Shihan in his wisdom has given my dojo a place on the affiliated clubs board in the dojo but not on the web site. Of course up-dates are notoriously slow. Does that worry me - no. Should it worry you - even less so.

I am pretty sure that if you wrote Honbu from outside of Japan and asked about my rank and affiliation they would not answer you - again it is not your business. They might ask me what I want done but same answer.

It's the old adage a fool and his money are soon parted. If you are willing to do research you will probably find a half decent dojo. If not - you are not my problem.

Last edited by PeterR : 12-27-2004 at 12:50 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-27-2004, 01:56 AM   #138
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
Whose to say Aikikai sets the standard? And how can you prevent other dojos from operating? And who are you to decide who does what?
Mary Eastland
Berkshire Hills Aikido
I go and talk to them and practice with them. Logic and goodwill will prevail most times. I have never had a situation where it has not and will not consider a situation where it will not until it happens. At that point, I will have to make my decisions. Well, I guess it has and it meant a little match on one of the match platforrms on the mountains around Hong Kong.

As a Shidoin, it is my duty to deal with these types of issues in the most effective way possible. I have no choice. As my Shihans have said, make sure I win or don't come back.

Rock

Last edited by Rocky Izumi : 12-27-2004 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:53 AM   #139
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"I am pretty sure that if you wrote Honbu from outside of Japan and asked about my rank and affiliation they would not answer you - again it is not your business" P. Rehse

You can verify ranks with the aikikai. I have in the past on someone claiming to be something and having a multitude of excuses as to why they don't have a sho-sho to prove it. I simple wrote them and they got back with me stating they did not show the person having been awarded any rank with the aikikai. It was real helpful since the guy was claiming to be a shodan and he wasn't. Another form of fraud or dishonesty in my mind. Sometimes in small towns people think no one will figure out their lies. I check all ranks people claim and ask for rank certificates.
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Old 12-27-2004, 09:12 AM   #140
PRapoza
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Re: Aikido Frauds

If you guys spent half as much energy training as you do thinking and writing about something that has always been, is now and always will be you'd be much further along in your own journey. That being said I too am and have been very critical of other teachers, lineages etc... but one thing I do know for sure, it (criticizing, worrying about how others practice) is a waste of time and a fruitless endeavor. The reason this thread is so popular is that by our nature we want to criticize others to justify our own way. This is why we need training. The words quoted by O'Sensei are not just some unattainable ideal but a road map for our training. It is a difficult road to hoe and one that I often wander off but it is the road no less. We have very little time here (on earth) don't waste a single moment!
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Old 12-27-2004, 09:20 AM   #141
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Hello Paul Sensei, Happy Holidays. I agree with you. Usually the answer to all my questions is: Take more ukemi!

Best,
Steve
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:50 AM   #142
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Chris: I think organizations generally will require you to pay membership fees.. If you cease to pay, you cease to be a member.
John,

Thanks for the reply. This of course makes sense but I'm wondering what value an organization creates and brings to a dojo in exchange for the membership fees. It seems to me that the biggest thing they could offer is credibility and/or rank authentication. If this is the case then the fraud being discussed on this thread only serves to dilute this value and it would be in the interest of the "valid" organizations to address this issue.

Chris
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:52 AM   #143
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Hi Chris..

Well I for one have been threatened with legal action (although the less said about that person the better) Nothing came of the threat BTW.

Oh I've also been physically threatend several times mainly via emails (lol)

Speaking generally, I think legal action is a mathematical certainty. Not if or whom but when.

Dave
Dave, thanks for the response. I'm not running a dojo and only taught an occasional class so I guess I've been insulated from this sort of thing. Unfortunately I think you are right, it's going to happen!

Chris
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:08 AM   #144
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Paul Rapoza wrote:
...but one thing I do know for sure, it (criticizing, worrying about how others practice) is a waste of time and a fruitless endeavor. The reason this thread is so popular is that by our nature we want to criticize others to justify our own way.
AAAGGGHHH!!! Sorry, had to get that out.

People still seem to think we are criticizing other training methods...WE ARE NOT. We are voicing concerns over instructors/entire organizations who provide fraudulent histories and training in order to take advantage of people for whatever purpose (money, ego, etc.)

This is not about justifying my way or saying that one training method is to be the standard over all others. I'm almost positive that Sensei Riggs training methods and my own are at opposite ends of the spectrum, yet I share his concerns in this issue. I definitely don't feel like he and any others here are advocating one set style or organization as the standard.

Please read the posts. (that's for everybody )

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:31 AM   #145
Qatana
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I think that some people never get past the "subject " line when replying to posts. Like there's a new thread about bowing, with a very specific question asked, and not one single person who has responded to that post has actually responded to that specific question.

I found Riggs Sensei's post and subsequent clarifications absolutely clear, and i agree with his points and possible solutions.

However i also bothered to do my research into lineage and history when I was considering the practice and searching for a dojo. I was lucky enough to find my sensei without shopping around, and his lineage and credentials are public knowledge.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:41 AM   #146
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
I think that some people never get past the "subject " line when replying to posts. Like there's a new thread about bowing, with a very specific question asked, and not one single person who has responded to that post has actually responded to that specific question.
I noticed that too.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:20 PM   #147
Don_Modesto
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
My organization has a list but you wont find me on it....I am pretty sure that if you wrote Honbu from outside of Japan and asked about my rank and affiliation they would not answer you - again it is not your business.
Funky, this.

Organizations should at least be clearing houses for sound information about their own teachers.

I bring this up because the attitude above is sort of prevalent, actually. There was some pretty nasty stuff going on a while back on one of the threads (here or another board, I don't recall) about someone or another's bona fides. He'd claimed a lineage and others in that lineage vociferously denied it and quoted folk at the top to that effect. I emailed another org. that this individual claimed rank from to check with them. I would have thought that they'd be glad to confirm the rank if it was genuine, deny it if fraudulent. They were suspicious of me! After demanding and getting my own credentials, they finally confirmed that the person in question actually had received the claimed rank from them. But why this attitude I don't understand. Care to explain further, Peter?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:35 PM   #148
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"People still seem to think we are criticizing other training methods...WE ARE NOT. We are voicing concerns over instructors/entire organizations who provide fraudulent histories and training in order to take advantage of people for whatever purpose (money, ego, etc.)

This is not about justifying my way or saying that one training method is to be the standard over all others. I'm almost positive that Sensei Riggs training methods and my own are at opposite ends of the spectrum, yet I share his concerns in this issue. I definitely don't feel like he and any others here are advocating one set style or organization as the standard.

Please read the posts. (that's for everybody )"

Thanks. I think I have and most of the other posters have taken great care to not get into the issue of your style vs. my style. My concerns on this issue have come about due to an increase in the number of these frauds out there. Not only are they increasing but they are buying ranks from non-aikido organizations. The public has no clue.

AGAIN-WE ARE NOT ATTACKING DIFFERENT STYLES WHERE RANK HAS BEEN EARNED. I do aikikai style aikido because that is what I want to do. I started with a splinter organization and then ranked with an independent organization but switched-because I wanted to stay connected with the founding organization. That's just me. I don't expect everyone to follow my path nor do I expect them to agree with it. However, what I am hoping is that there is actually a path followed not fabricated.

Last edited by aikidoc : 12-27-2004 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:50 PM   #149
MaryKaye
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I pay dues to Ki Society International (not very large dues at my level). My impression is that they would react to attempts to use their name or to claim to be teaching in their style by someone who was not qualified to do so. In one of their newsletters they sent a reminder that the name is copyrighted and not to be used without permission.

I am fairly sure that they would verify a claimed dan rank if asked, though knowing the organization I suspect it might take quite a long time to get a response.

As a kyu rank, my main interaction with International is that they hold teacher-training workshops, and introduce new material as "this is how we're doing it now." Such new material filters down through the ranks and does get to people at my level. So even though there's no very direct contact, we're quite aware that they exist. My dojo is wrestling with a different way to do nikyo, filtered down from HQ.

They also set the test criteria, which gives a certain assurance that a Ki Society student from elsewhere has some predictable base of knowledge. It's not entirely predictable, though: we have an Eastern European student who knows the same throws we do by name, but a couple of them are startlingly different in form. Coherent and effective, obviously well-taught, just different. It doesn't help that most throw names correspond to more than one throw! The details of which throw was actually meant come by filtering down from HQ, and clearly they can mutate en route.

Compared to other national/international organizations I've belonged to, this one is actually somewhat functional....

Mary Kaye
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:22 PM   #150
PRapoza
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I read the other posts. Almost all say the same thing, in slightly different ways. The dojo's being called frauds have always, are now and will always exist period. People stretch the truth, lie, scheme, etc... Do you think time is better spent trying to control those people or on training yourself ? That is what the quote from O'Sensei is speaking of. We all have a limited amount of time and energy. Why spend it on things that are outside your control, everything outside your skin.. Because it's easier to look outward than in. The question inevitably comes back to "What does this have to do with my own training/dojo?" I know what my answer is...what's yours?
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