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Old 12-23-2004, 10:48 AM   #101
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"I just feel like the regulations that have been proposed are too rigid."

Mary, I'm not sure where you are picking up the idea of regulations. I think several good things have been thrown out in a brainstorming fashion to "red flag" the frauds. Realistically, I don't think anyone on this site wants to be regulated or expect to regulate others. I think getting rid of the bad apples is a good idea although not probably likely to happen. I do think personally many, at least on this site, would have little problem with some of the suggestions: willingness to communicate your lineage and prove your rank sources (whether independent or not); realistic websites; avoidance of soke groups giving out ranks for money, etc. etc. Legitimate styles/dojos should have little to hide. The 40 year old 8-10th dan, soke, grandmaster, professor, doctor does-his or her lies.
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Old 12-23-2004, 10:55 AM   #102
spinecracker
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

There seems to be a consensus of opinion on this thread that communication between aikidoka (or insert martial artist of your choice here) regarding the qualities and credentials of instructors and organisations could be used as an effective self-policing method. Should an aikidoka run across an individual or group that is not what he/she/it appears, then their experience should be shared amongst those who should be informed i.e. prospective students of that individual or group. I agree that regulations that are too rigid would be detrimental to many admirable instructors and clubs out there, so perhaps the only way to ensure that aikido keeps it's reputation is by the dissemination of information. But if there are legal impediments to naming names on forums such as AikiWeb, then the whole thing becomes just a philosophical discussion (i.e. as much use as glasses to a blind man - or, my favorite - as much use as a chocolate teapot). One thing that we should also be doing is praising those individuals and organisations out there who a wonderful job in promoting and teaching aikido. Perhaps having a list of names of good aiki people and groups might help us focus more on the positve around us instead of the negative. Now I have to go and have a lie down - all this thinking has given me a headache
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:53 PM   #103
Don_Modesto
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FDA to regulate placebos!

Not really. But they might as well do that as us regulate aikido:

Texas woman pays $50,000 for cloned cat (http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5151590.html)

First Professional Wrestling;

then silicone implants;

robot pets;

draft dodgers as more patriotic than decorated heroes;

cloned pets.

Sheesh! Even when we can have the real thing, we don't want it. We should be setting up a consulting firm to promote these aikidolts and take a cut.

If you can't beat 'em, MUSUBI!

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 12-24-2004, 12:18 PM   #104
Lan Powers
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Re: Aikido Frauds

> I think that information passed about individuals who are fraudulent would be better than trying to regulate Aikido. <

I would agree with you.
That is the issue that was brought up concerning how to DO this without the lawsuit issue coming up.

You name specific individuals or groups, it can become very tricky.(see above)
You don't name specifics, you don't really warn.
Frivolous lawsuits abound in this country....could a slander case be made out by a fraud and made to " stick" against his accusers/exposers?

As well,
how long before you get the "I can ruin this jerk"(nevermind if it is true) rears its ugly little head?


Just some random thoughts on the subject
Lan

Last edited by Lan Powers : 12-24-2004 at 12:24 PM.

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Old 12-24-2004, 10:20 PM   #105
RonRagusa
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Re: Aikido Frauds

When I was very much younger it was important to me that I be asked to join a particular organization at my high school. The organization lay slightly to the outlaw side of legitimacy as far as the school was concerned and, as such, membership was much sought after by students. Being a member of this group brought with it instant recognition and a modicum of respect from other students due to the rigorous entrance requirements exacted upon new recruits. Well, I got my bid, lasted through the six weeks of systematic abuse dished out by the members and was sworn into the group. That moment in time remains vivid in my memory; indicating that it must have meant very much to me. Looking back I now realize that it was the conferring of recognition by a body of people I considered superior to me that drove my desire to belong to that group. Forty plus years of experience now allows me to laugh at the very idea that my self worth needs affirmation from without.

In the early years of my Aikido training I experienced many of the same feelings related to the legitimacy of my practice. Never mind that my sensei's technique combined grace and power in ways that left me awe struck when I watched him; he was a maverick, a breakaway from his teacher and out there on his own. As I moved up through the ranks my feelings of isolation from the larger Aikido world intensified. Yes I was growing, both as an Aikido practitioner and a person. Yes my technique began to pour out of me and my strength grew in ways I could never have imagined in my weight lifting days when muscle was all the rage. But for all my growth and advancement who was there in the larger world to pat me on the back and say "well done"? Sure my rank was recognized by my sensei's organization but that was a small ripple in a very large pond; what about the rest of the Aikido world?

As I'm sure that Sensei knew would happen, I reached a point where I realized that none of those feelings of inadequacy really mattered. Regardless of what the larger body thought of me I would continue to train and teach. I would continue to grow, my Aikido evolve. This was not a slow realization; it hit me like a thunderbolt. It's as though I was jolted out of sleep. Suddenly my path lay before me, broad and bright. I knew at that moment that my 25 years as Sensei's student had come to an end. I have since become an independent practitioner. My need to "join" and be recognized has been burned away by the sheer joy of following my own road.

I believe that all this worrying about so called frauds ruining Aikido is really coming from the need of many Aikidoka for conformity. To say that the art is threatened by the few who may not conform to ones idea of what constitutes a legitimate instructor is to miss the fact that the Art of Aikido is much larger than the sum of its parts. O-Sensei's gift to the world is forever beyond the control of a small group of people who wish to set standards and have everyone conform to them. The seed planted by O-Sensei has grown into a tree with many branches; the branches have dropped seeds, some of which have grown into trees with branches of their own. Natural selection will determine which trees will live to pass on their knowledge and which will fade into obscurity.

Enjoy your training. Teach and allow your students to discover the Aikido that lies within them. Realize that for some, their Aikido will be very different from your own and it's ok.
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Old 12-24-2004, 10:29 PM   #106
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Very interesting thread on a topic very close to my heart as well. For me this problem is an extremely serious one and has possibility to totally destroy a country's (and by extension Aikido students from that country's) credibility in the art of Aikido (among others) if left unchecked. The trend may have already begun in this country as a thread in E-Budo's Baffling Budo section would attest.

I have to agree with John Riggs' post that speaks about the increasing numbers of these schools and the resultant effects. It is something I also experience regularly and sadly have to be pointman for as regards representing a certain subsection of Aikido (sometimes representing Aikdio as a whole) to those who may be fortunate enough to know better than that being put forward by the fraudsters.

Imagine a small country where there may be a few very powerful, charismatic instructors of what one may deem a McDojo, and these instructors decide to spread themselves across the country, regionally and even internationally teaching a myriad of different styles and awarding ranks. The good thing (for them) about this is that they tend to command a certain level of finances that can allow for further large scale expansion into other areas of instruction easily, even in the face of other legitimate schools who may be teaching the styles they profess to teach.

Now imagine these huge McDojos with all their assets and financial and political (via local sporting bodies) clout deciding to teach Aikido, though their "instructors" have only learnt from books and videos or "done a few classes and seminars" and have given themselves fraudulent rank and started to teach. The average person will tend to gravitate towards these schools since they are most visible to the public (as regards MA in general), have the finances to litter the country with dojos and the absence of ethics to have a slew of "black belt level" instructors populating these dojos within a year - all teaching Aikido learnt from a book, video or a couple seminars. They combine this with having demonstrations using very skilled Ukes who can make any technique look good and executing techniques similar enough to that in the latest Seagal flick to seem like Aikido to the untrained eye.

The general public sees these people every time the word Aikido is heard and soon whatever they do becomes imprinted in the average mind as a mental image of what quality Aikido is supposed to look like.

Now place in this situation the internationally affiliated, recognised and trained instructors of Aikido who may have been teaching for years prior without having the level of contacts to attain the sort of finances commanded by these McDojos.

In this scenario no amount of "correct and useful information" is going to be able to stop this great behemoth of a McDojo since the legitimate schools are merely a speck compared to the sheer size of these fraudsters. The only folks who tend to escape the fraudsters are folks who actually know what Aikido is supposed to be and look like. However this means that legitimate Aikido is not really spread to new people within the country but only practiced by a choice few who know what the real art is supposed to look and feel like and choose to stay away from the lure of the charlatans.

Of course as far as the rest of the Aikido world is concerned, the Aikido practitioners of that particular region are basically a pack of jokers, since they are practicing "God knows what" and trying to pass it off as Aikido and may only see the light when they travel outside the boundaries of the McDojo system itself.

As far as controlling this situation, I like the concepts given by David Humm with the addition of possibly having a recognised representative (or a few) in each country to act as point men for the global organisation and carry out the basic levels of research required. As an Executive Member of our local Judo Association we are constantly in the process of validating the claims of schools that want to enter the association.

Just my thoughts. The problem may be more dangerous than it appears in certain environments where the leverage is enjoyed by those teaching BS and calling it Aikido. To me it's not about styles but about quality of training regardless of style. We all have certain things (based on our own training) that we look for to judge quality Aikido - do we want Aikido of poor quality to become the standard for those who do not know better?

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 12-24-2004 at 10:40 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 12-25-2004, 08:39 AM   #107
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
...I believe that all this worrying about so called frauds ruining Aikido is really coming from the need of many Aikidoka for conformity. To say that the art is threatened by the few who may not conform to ones idea of what constitutes a legitimate instructor is to miss the fact that the Art of Aikido is much larger than the sum of its parts.
Ron
Seasonal wishes at this time of year fella

Whilst I read with great interest your accounts, I feel you've missed the entire plot of this thread.

No one is saying that independance = rubbish

No one is saying that frauds always come from independant organisations

No one is actually worried.

What we are discussing is the very real fact that bogus aikido instructors DO exist. they perpertrate their fraudulant behaviour for no other reason other than personal gain.

Some of us would rather that didn't happen.

Dave
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Old 12-25-2004, 08:58 AM   #108
MaryKaye
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Larry,

Might it be possible for the legitimate aikido organizations in your country to cooperate in sponsoring a yearly seminar with some top foreign teachers? It might be easier to compete with the large McDojo's in publicity if you only had to do it once a year and for a well-defined special event, and if the costs and organizational energy were spread among several dojo. And once people experience excellent aikido they are less likely to be impressed by frauds.

A recent seminar here was co-sponsored by several dojo including an independent one. It doesn't have to be done within organizational boundaries as long as the excellence of the teachers is generally agreed upon.

Mary Kaye
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Old 12-25-2004, 09:33 AM   #109
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Ron: I agree with David in that I think you missed the plot. Let me state it more clearly. This is not about the independents who do their time on the mat. 25 years on the mat if one is seriously training and learning should not detract from anyone's aikido.

This is about the following:
1. Lofty ranks awarded that make no sense given the age and training background of the individual.
2. Ranks awarded by themselves, a soke organization that gives them out for money (one organization even has founding/head member on a most wanted list for the state of Arizona), or by karate organizations that have no legitimate rank in aikido).
3. People who make fraudulent claims about things they have done and made up people they've studied with. There is a whole thread on E-budo or bullshido (don't recall) where they list the best excuses these guys put out. E.g., I can't tell you about my CIA experiences because its top secret and I'd have to kill you, I was an ex-SEAL, Green Beret, Ranger, etc. (never verifiable), I was adopted at 7 years old by this Japanese maintenance man who was an aikido master (of course no one has ever heard of them), I can't remember my sensei's name-he was so secretative we just called him sensei, misleading statements and claims where it sounds like they've studied with masters for a lifetime when in reality they took a seminar class, or watched them on video.
4. Lots of lofty ranks in multiple arts-most of which they made up along the way to pad their resume and make it look like they are something they are not.
5. Ridiculous claims-cutting paper and moving people with their ki. Of course they can't do it when called on, usually do to an injury. How can a physical injury affect your ki?
6. Vague and non-verifiable lineages and claims.

This is NOT about independents who earned their ranks or broke away from their own instructors for whatever reasons. It is about FRAUDS as we have discussed. Some of those may be independents and some may be traditional instructors as well. These people prey on the public and as Larry pointed out could be dangerous to the arts credibility if charismatic. They are also growing. Unfortunately, due to soke organizations certifying them as masters. One of the soke organizations doing this in addition to the wanted person I referred to the other founder was a 4th dan legitimately and then jumped to 10th dan. Bovine feces is Bovine feces.

Whether you are an independent or a certified instructor from a traditional school perpetuating such a fraud. It's still a fraud and bad for the art.

Last edited by aikidoc : 12-25-2004 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 12-25-2004, 11:04 AM   #110
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
To say that the art is threatened by the few who may not conform to ones idea of what constitutes a legitimate instructor is to miss the fact that the Art of Aikido is much larger than the sum of its parts.
I think the point of this discussion is that the legitimacy of MA's in general are threatened by the growing number of people who lie about their training, skills, and rank.

This hits home for me also as I was taken in by one of these hucksters (in a different art) when I started MA. These frauds rely on the fact that most people will trust them or at least be too lazy to do the research. Many people don't even know where to begin doing research. Of course it's much easier now with the availablility of web access and sites like AikiWeb and E-budo.

These fakes also rely on peoples unwillingness to expose them as frauds. After I left the fraudulent instructor many of his ex-students came out of the woodwork to tell me they had left (much earlier than me) because they found out he was a sham. But none of them ever exposed him as a fraud and they allowed him to continue his lies.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 12-25-2004, 11:12 AM   #111
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Bronson makes a good point about the unwillingness of people to expose the frauds. Unfortunately, this is too common. I think there are several reasons but a key one might be the unwillingness to accept the fact you've been duped. Especially, when you realize you've poured a lot of money down a rathole and have nothing legitimate to show for it other than some weak skills.

If anything, I hope this thread has raised awareness of the frauds that are out there and hopefully if you happen to be practicing with one that you start questioning whether you should continue. I think several good ideas have been presented that will let you assess the claims. That may be the most effective way to put them out of business. To quote DeNiro in "Meet the Fockers" we are are watchng you

Last edited by aikidoc : 12-25-2004 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:22 PM   #112
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
Larry,

Might it be possible for the legitimate aikido organizations in your country to cooperate in sponsoring a yearly seminar with some top foreign teachers? It might be easier to compete with the large McDojo's in publicity if you only had to do it once a year and for a well-defined special event, and if the costs and organizational energy were spread among several dojo. And once people experience excellent aikido they are less likely to be impressed by frauds.
Hi Mary,

You offer a good concept which I have attempted to bring to fruition and now that I have made even more links in the Caribbean regarding Aikido may be able to make a reality sometime soon.

The thing is we only have 2 legitimate teachers of Aikido in this country that I am aware of. The other is also heavily involved in another MA which has had its share of ridiculous local politics, splinters of splinter organisations and fraudulent claims over the past years. As such there are not that many dojo to share any sort of cost. However, we did have a J.A.A. Shihan here recently and I made it a point to get press and media coverage of his seminars here to let the public know. My next project is to be an Aikido festival where we can have reps from a few different flavours of Aikido, but this requires great planning and resources. The good thing is, through our affiliation with the Judo Association, the most consistent and longstanding of all MA bodies in this country, we are getting access to greater resources and are conducting a lot more demos and seminars to spread the word. However, the amount of fraudsters greatly outnumbers the legit folks at present. Hopefully at some point the tide will change. The good news is that those who know better are seeking out the dojos who are not trying to pass off some other MA as Aikido.

I think this is the point that John Riggs and others has been making all along. It's not about independent orgs doing their own things after having a solid foundation under a teacher of Aikido who has the lineage and skillset to prove it. This is about people who are misrepresenting Aikido itself and its training methods to an unsuspecting public who are expecting these people to be the experts to guide them.

As indicated elsewhere - imagine training for 10 or 20 plus years in something only to go to another country where others are doing the same art under legitimate tuition and you realise that for the past years you were totally and horribly mistaken as to what you thought your chosen training method was. Imo this should not be encouraged.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:34 PM   #113
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I think how this should be handled depends a lot on the Shihan for the area and ryu. The Shihan who I have worked under generally did not care who did what as long as they did not claim that they were from the same ryu. Nor did they really care about people who were from the same ryu but claimed independence. It is the loss of the person who claims independence, not the Shihan. (I remember an old admonition from a Shihan -- be careful who you allow to call you Sensei.)

I am younger, and more concerned about the viability of my organisation than those Shihan. I do not allow other Aikido groups underneath the Aikikai standard to operate in what I consider my territory (where my dojos are) unless they have a prior affiliation with a Shihan from elsewhere,
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Old 12-25-2004, 02:35 PM   #114
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Whose to say Aikikai sets the standard? And how can you prevent other dojos from operating? And who are you to decide who does what?
Mary Eastland
Berkshire Hills Aikido
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Old 12-25-2004, 02:45 PM   #115
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"Whose to say Aikikai sets the standard? And how can you prevent other dojos from operating? And who are you to decide who does what?"

Mary, are you actually reading all the posts? No one has said anything about the aikikai setting the standards or preventing other dojos from operating, nor deciding who does what? This discussion is about the frauds-the people lying about their credentials or getting fake credentials, etc. Please read all the posts-again they are not directed at independents or telling people what to do. No one is trying to tell the frauds what to do-other than being honest. In fact if people want to train with these people and they often defend them aggressively, more power to them. However, I think this thread has pointed out clearly that no one-aikikai, independent, etc. wants frauds to bastardize the art. With all the factions and splinter groups, we will never agree on a standard aikido. We all have our opinions in that regard-egos and politics won't let us come to consensus.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I did not understand your post with respect to what has transpired on this thread. If you are only selectively reading comments, you are not informed about all of the issues being addressed or suggestions (some tongue in cheek).
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Old 12-25-2004, 03:25 PM   #116
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
I am younger, and more concerned about the viability of my organisation than those Shihan. I do not allow other Aikido groups underneath the Aikikai standard to operate in what I consider my territory (where my dojos are) unless they have a prior affiliation with a Shihan from elsewhere,
What am I misunderstanding here?

I don't think you are being mean....maybe a little condescending, but not mean.

I simply disagree with you. My point is and has been that although there are frauds out there I think that any attempts at regulation would harm Aikido, especially independant dojos. I have not felt like anyone is attacking me or my organzation personally. I just feel fiercely independant and don't like the idea of regulations proposed to stop a few fraudulent teachers that could affect many more.

Perhaps if you could come off line slightly you could look at your proposals from my point of veiw.

I strongly feel that by implementing some of your ideas that smaller organazations would be affected adversely.

Maybe you could consider those points and include ideas that would be inclusive of all Aikido Styles even those not affilated with a Shihan or major organazation.

These are what seem like regulations to me.

Quote:
. . Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability or ECFA". J. Garcia.

So, does anyone have any thoughts on Jorge's idea. Here are mine.
1. Non-profit.
2. Organizational and individual dojo memberships.
3. Website with member dojos and their lineage history and latest verified ranks.
4. Grandfathering in organizations like: Aikikai affiliates (USAF, AAA, ASU, etc), Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc.)
5. Board of Directors with power to accept or deny membership
6. Membership criteria and criteria for removing someone from membership (ethics)
7. Some kind of membership pledge statement to quote Dave Chappelle to "keep it real."
8. A publicized red flag list somewhat like the one above. By the way, anyone wanting to use those criteria in their area is more than welcome to steal anything they want from my suggestions.

This would be a extremely challenging undertaking but would definitely be interesting and worthwhile. Just my thoughts.
Especially numbers 3 through 8.

Mary Eastland
Berkshire Hills Aikido
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Old 12-25-2004, 03:52 PM   #117
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Mary:

Those were just ideas thrown out for a quality control organization-a voluntary one at that. One I doubt many would participate in unless the problem was significant enough-they usually just chuckle at the frauds. What suggestions do you have for the independents?

The fraud red flag list is one I came up with as a result of seeing these on websites and being exposed to them. Others might have a different experience. However, I might add any organization or dojo whether independent or traditional would be of concern when several of the red flags pop up. The biggest one in my mind are rank awards by world sokeship councils. Everyone I have ran across has had this problem. One used most often has two people at its head. One is wanted in Arizona (or was) for fraud. The other went from 4th dan to 10th dan when he set the organization up. How convenient. These are karateka and promoting aikido ranks! That would be like aikidoka promoting karateka to high ranks-makes no sense to me, ethically, logically, or in any other way.

3. Website with member dojos and their lineage history and latest verified ranks.

Why would this be a problem for Independents? If you have earned legitimate rank somewhere and not just awarded it to yourself and then got it sanctioned by a soke organization this should not be a problem. What I was suggesting is that people actually document on their sites what they have earned or the source of each rank. Not vague references to studying under some dead master who was a gardner working for your father whom discovered you at age 7 and made you a lineage holder.

4. Grandfathering in organizations like: Aikikai affiliates (USAF, AAA, ASU, etc), Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc.). Not sure why this is a problem-many cited above as examples are long standing organizations that split off from the aikikai. Other groups do that as well. They may be eligible for membership based on their lineage. I would recommend however that this not be done for people splitting off below 6th dan just because they get pissed at their senseis.

5. Board of Directors with power to accept or deny membership. Why is this a problem?

6. Membership criteria and criteria for removing someone from membership (ethics). Most organizations or sanctioning groups have criteria.

7. Some kind of membership pledge statement to quote Dave Chappelle to "keep it real." This statement was designed to keep out the bovine feces statements and lies about skills and/claims to rank not earned but bought or self awarded. Things like cutting paper and moving people with ki, CIA ties, etc. The 10th dan soke, doctor, professor, grandmaster titles that are not traditional to any legitimate aikido organization.

8. A publicized red flag list somewhat like the one above. By the way, anyone wanting to use those criteria in their area is more than welcome to steal anything they want from my suggestions.
These are the things I saw consistently that set off my BS detector every time. There may be others and some may not apply. I was presenting my observations and fishing for others.

Sorry, I did not mean to sound condescending but simply felt you were missing the point and maybe had not fully read all of the comments. In a thread as long as this has turned out to be people sometimes pop in without keeping up on the discussion. Their comments subsequently miss the previously discussed points.

Last edited by aikidoc : 12-25-2004 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 12-25-2004, 04:15 PM   #118
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

John,

Here's a thought for the new year.

I own a considerable amount of domain space. I would be very willing to provide a suitable amount of space and wilingness to co-maintain what ever website resulted.

I would also be prepared to register a dedicated domain name.

Obviously if some form of "international red flag" system were to begin, legal aspects of such an undertaking would need to be sought. Do we have any solicitors or lawyers here?

Many things would need to be discussed and agreed such as content.

I am willing to assist where possible but to make this worthwhile, it really needs to be a truely international effort with people prepared to submit information from their own countries.

Thoughts?

Dave
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Old 12-25-2004, 04:34 PM   #119
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Aikido Frauds

David:

I like the idea although it would be a major undertaking. I think there are several concerns that would have to be addressed up front. One I think it would definitely have to avoid outright labeling of groups or organizations as frauds as much as we want to do this. It would prevent the legal issues. However, it could be a clearing house for legitimate organizations and dojos to provide students with a place to go to identify known legitimate organizations and obtain a set of criteria to screen out the bogus groups. Two, we would probably have to make sure that it would be focused on statements that these are our opinions as to what makes a legitimate organization/lineage and that there may be groups that chose not to participate. I think members should be able to provide a link on their site to such a place.

I don't have programming or website skills-I'm lucky I can type . It would definitely be an interesting site. I know of your issues over there and have read many of the threads on the situation. I don't know whose laws it would fall under.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or David's idea? I think we would have to have some different areas:

Traditional organizations, independent organizations, non-affiliated independent schools/dojos.
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Old 12-25-2004, 04:59 PM   #120
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Hi John,

Off the top of my head :

Avoiding definitive statements which use the word "fraud" in connection with individuals or organisations

Creation of a 'mission statement' which clearly sets out the purpose of the site and the definition of what is considered a "red flag" -- And why the site exists.

A definition of what is considered 'legitimate'
A definition of what is <generally> considered 'illegitimate'

A forum for the discussion of related subjects.

Food for thought and indeed a massive project
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Old 12-25-2004, 05:03 PM   #121
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I like it-goods ideas.
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Old 12-25-2004, 05:23 PM   #122
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Rocky Izumi wrote:
I am younger, and more concerned about the viability of my organisation than those Shihan. I do not allow other Aikido groups underneath the Aikikai standard to operate in what I consider my territory (where my dojos are) unless they have a prior affiliation with a Shihan from elsewhere,
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
What am I misunderstanding here?
Well, mainly that he was referring only to other Aikikai dojo, not to dojo from other organizations.

In any case, my question to the first posting here would be how do you allow or not allow other Aikikai groups to practice? Dojo storming? Mean looks?

Anyone who was training in the mainland US in the 1970's and 80's should be aware of what a mess that kind of thing turned into and how poorly that kind of terratorialism turned out in the end. IMO, one of the great legacies of Kisshomaru Ueshiba was his movement to end the little kingdoms that had been set up and re-include many of the people who had left because of that type of practice.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-25-2004, 05:45 PM   #123
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Whoops...I took that to mean that the Aikikai was the standard and everything else was less than that....Sorry. I guess I am feeling a little uppity.

Mary Eastland
Berkshire Hills Aikido
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Old 12-25-2004, 09:13 PM   #124
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Mary
>....Sorry. I guess I am feeling a little uppity. <

Actually, you just sound like a concerned and invoved member af a school you love.........or an art.
Right?

Regards
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 12-26-2004, 11:08 AM   #125
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

For those of you that are part of one of the recognized "associations" USAF, AAA, ASU, Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki or others...

1. Are you paying dues to your organization?
2. What is your organization currently doing about this?

I'm curious because I trained in and was ranked by an independent. I've trained with many, many different "styles" by visiting dojos and attending seminars but I don't have any experience with any of these organizations from a "business" perspective. It seems to me that the subject of this thread is really the main reason any of the organizations would exist but maybe I'm missing something else!

Thanks

Chris
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