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Old 12-21-2004, 05:12 AM   #26
Magnus Brown
Dojo: Ellis School of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Aikido Frauds

There's a site dedicated to exposing martial arts fraud http://www.bullshido.com
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:25 AM   #27
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

And they are a joke in their own right.

Basically if you don't wrestle or do BJJ you are .... log on in and I am sure they'll tell you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:03 AM   #28
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
The difficulty with invoking lineage is that anyone can lie about lineage, and it's going to be *really* hard to educate the public to tell the difference between a legit organization and a fictional one.
... Mary you have no idea how hard you've just hit the nail firmly on it's head.

Even with documentary proof, it's virtually impossible to convince those who simply don't want to listen to the truth.

Dave
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:12 AM   #29
Magnus Brown
Dojo: Ellis School of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Yeah I've been on the site (which is barely moderated) and they are mostly a bunch of one on one fighters and if you've got a thin skin you won't survive but at least they do name and shame the people who they think are fraudsters. And the only test seems to be one of proving your skills in a fight which doesn't seem like a bad premise for people who are claiming that they can fight. So if you ignore the crassness you can find out about teachers and schools, which you can't do here.
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:48 AM   #30
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Hey folks,

My personal preference for checking out fraudsters is the Bad Budo and Baffling Budo sections of E-Budo.com. A lot of the Instructors who post here on Aikiweb are also signed on there and like Aikiweb, one must show their real name when posting. I've also found that E-Budo folks carry a wealth and breadth of knowledge experience well outside the art of Aikido alone, which can give some alternative perspectives on things.

As far as stopping or thwarting fraudulent claims in Aikido goes, I've had to deal with some of that here, where the general awareness of Aikido is small among martial artists and pretty nonexistent outside that sphere. Because this is a small country, what we've been doing is trying to make ourselves more visible to the public so that what they know who we are and what we are doing and also give them an idea of what Aikido is supposed to look like. We also give general guidelines regarding the questions one should ask when visiting a dojo that claims to teach any martial art, especially Aikido.

I have come face to face with Aikido fraudsters here and when they meet me they often quickly change their story in a myriad of ways while in my presence (like claiming to teach some unknown school of Aikijutsu), so pinning them down is a bit difficult. I think the best way to fight misinformation in this case is to flood the environment with a lot more correct information and hope that those who really need that information listen to what is correct, or at least question things before deciding to train with these groups. The thing is, those who have nothing to hide will welcome pointed questions on things like lineage, training methods, affiliations etc.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:34 AM   #31
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Hmmm....a man grows up studying a variety of martial arts......breaks away from his primary teacher and develops his own interpretation and name for a "new" type of martial art....claims a spiritual connection that seems to many to be "divine" ,develops almost a cult-like following of disciples....claims the title of "O'Sensei" or Great Teacher.....sound familiar?

Don't get me wrong on this.....but there are some interesting parellels with other modern day martial artists that we label "frauds"


Maybe its all in the marketing................
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:41 AM   #32
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Mark: I think there is a big difference in what O'Sensei did. He actually studied and gained teaching proficiency in the arts. Many of the fraudsters do just the opposite. They get bogus soke organizations to give them ranks far above what they have earned or legitimately trained to acquire. Also, some of them award themselves their own ranks based on bylaws of the organization they set up. As the SNL church lady used to say: How convenient. O'Sensei invested his whole life in the study of martial arts and development of aikido. These people are taking major short cuts and de-evolving the quality of the arts not contributing to them. I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:16 AM   #33
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.
Indeed, unfortunately however Joe Shmo doesn't know the difference.

One individual here in the UK (lol no... not the one everyone will assume) Publicly proclaimed on his website that he was...
"The only westerner to have ever been made a MASTER of aikido"

Thankfully that farcical statement was changed following a short email however; I did get a "visit" from a couple of his "boys" to my dojo... Classic entertainment value
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:32 AM   #34
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"I think this is an apples and oranges comparison."

John, to a certain extent I agree...however lots of times these guys do invest a particular amount of effort into whatever martial art they start with.....Ego comes into play a lot of times and they think they have a better way......and to promote it they decide to embellish...i.e. "establishing the legend" before there is one....

"He actually studied and gained teaching proficiency in the arts."

If I read Stanly Pranin's stuff correctly O' Sensei was largely self-taught with the exception of Daito-Ryu...I have read some reference to Jukendo (sp) along with some bokken and staff....but no formal certificates or learning from an "established" authority or lineage. A lot of the "frauds" out there are largely self-taught......there are just a lot more ways now to "fraudulently legitimize" (how's that for an oxymoron!) your credentials.

and FWIW who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think....
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:55 AM   #35
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think...."

O Sensei had the second highest teaching license issued by Sokaku Takeda (Kyoju Dari) and was authorized to teach on his behalf which in Daito Ryu is a rare honor. When he separated to form his own brand of Daito ryu or aikibudo, he became his own credential or as some like to say, "his technique spoke for itself". That's why his art has gone around the world. The frauds fool the gullible with inflated credentials. O Sensei never claimed to have what he didn't have and what he had was apparent to all. If a fraud tries to do what O Sensei did, he would eventually be exposed because as Abraham Lincoln said," You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." There is a world of difference between O Sensei and the modern frauds.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:56 AM   #36
sunny liberti
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Even with documentary proof, it's virtually impossible to convince those who simply don't want to listen to the truth.
You have no idea how hard *you've* just hit the nail firmly on it's head...

We're dealing with delusions and the strong desire people have to keep theirs.

My dad used to say that one should never tear down anyone's mental playhouse unless you can build them a better one. I think this is a perfect example of being able to do just that!

Legit aikido teachers are in prime position to build a better path for those who have already shown interest in aikido, but stumbled upon a crook. For those who are seeking delusion, we will never help them. They don't want it.

Last edited by sunny liberti : 12-21-2004 at 11:00 AM.

Sunny

A brave man dies once; cowards are always dying." --Moanahonga, Ioway
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:12 AM   #37
jebel
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
Aikido Soke Level 20 Grand Master Of Flowers Ryu-ha Lord.
LMAO
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:25 AM   #38
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Sunny Liberti wrote:
My dad used to say that one should never tear down anyone's mental playhouse unless you can build them a better one.
Okay, I guess, I did okay then. I visited a dojo when I first moved here and it resulted in practically getting a group thrown in my lap because the students realized their teacher wasn't any better than the 3rd kyu he had earned from a legitimate aikido organization. Just because he was wearing a black belt didn't keep his students from seeing through the deception when presented with a comparison. In the process of disillusionment, did lose some of the students, but those that stayed are strong. They had to start over.

Given he had students he had awarded a 2nd kyu to and they were starting to help teach classes, I try not to imagine what it would have evolved into in 5 more years.

nipped it in the bud.

Last edited by kironin : 12-21-2004 at 11:28 AM.

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Old 12-21-2004, 11:30 AM   #39
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I've noticed over time that many people who's first contact with martial arts is one of these frauds have a difficult time admitting they chose poorly when faced with genuine training.

We'll get people in who assume we're a rinky-dink facility because we don't have: contracts, fancy uniforms with patches all over them, high-priced dues, trophies everywhere, or the heads of our vanquished opponents displayed on pikes. Because their first experience had such things and the first experience always colors subsequent experiences we are judged through that lens. Some people can see it for what it is and they'll often join us for a while but others just can't get past the lack of hype.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 12-21-2004, 12:13 PM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
O Sensei had the second highest teaching license issued by Sokaku Takeda (Kyoju Dari) and was authorized to teach on his behalf which in Daito Ryu is a rare honor.
I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-21-2004, 12:36 PM   #41
jonreading
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Ahhh. If only dojo raiding was still acceptable...

I see a comon thread of education running through many of these comments. I work hard to learn about aikido dojo in my area by attending class, talking to current (and former) students, attending seminars, and reading up on each dojo. I believe that education is the key to minimizing the damage of frauds. When potential students ask about other dojo, I answer questions truthfully and provide information to aid their choices; I do not make negative comments or participate in name bashing. I provide resources to gather additional information and send them on their way. I have a responsibility to provide information to assist a potential student in making a decision to join a dojo. The responsibility does not include making the decision, so I avoid comments that may taint a decision.

I made a similar comments in another thread about the quality of instruction, so I apologize if I sound like a broken record. We have a duty to uphold the quality of aikido, though sometimes that is not popular.
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:11 PM   #42
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"but no formal certificates or learning from an "established" authority or lineage."

Besides the Daito-ryu credentials cited by Jorge, this comes from The Master Course: Best Aikido 2. p. 204 "Morihei continued his studies under Nakai even after he was discharged frm the army in 1906, and he was awarded a teachng license from Nakai's school, the Yagyu Ryu Goto Ha, signed by Grand Master Masanosuke Tsuboi, in 1908." "In March of 1913, Morihei received a first-level teachng license from Sokaku..." (Although "Aikido" states he received one in 1916). He also studied several jujitsu arts and even judo as well as the spear. So he had teaching certificates in at least two arts.
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:58 PM   #43
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"An offshoot of the mainline school of Yagyu Shingan-ryu centered in Sendai in Miyagi Prefecture. Morihei UESHIBA trained in this art in Sakai near Osaka from c. 1903-1908. Ueshiba's practice began around the time he entered the army and continued after his discharge when he would periodically commute from Tanabe. The technical content of this school is unknown but certainly included jujutsu techniques and the study of various weapons. Records are unclear as to whether Ueshiba's direct teacher was Masanosuke Tsuboi or Masakatsu NAKAI. Ueshiba received a transmission scroll from this school in 1908 but the document bears no seals thus shedding doubt on its authenticity."

From Aikido Journal

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=230
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Old 12-21-2004, 02:11 PM   #44
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Best,

Chris
Even with thirty, if you know anything about Daito ryu, it's certainly not a K Mart blue light special. Sokaku Takeda's enrollment books show he taught about thirty thousand people. I don't know how you do your math but in the world I live in, that's rare enough!

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-21-2004, 02:56 PM   #45
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Even with thirty, if you know anything about Daito ryu, it's certainly not a K Mart blue light special. Sokaku Takeda's enrollment books show he taught about thirty thousand people. I don't know how you do your math but in the world I live in, that's rare enough!
The usual pattern would be that Takeda would breeze into town, have somebody (such as Yukiyoshi Sagawa, or his son Tokimune, who would travel with him) set up a local seminar and then move on to somewhere else. Everybody in the seminar would be required to sign his enrollment book. Most of the 30,0000 people in the books were therefore people who saw Takeda no more than once for a couple of hours. The number of students who actually studied with him over a number of years was really quite small, so 30 represents a fairly good percentage of them.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-21-2004, 03:10 PM   #46
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido Frauds

As John Riggs and others explained very well, these frauds do a lot of damage to aikido. My opinion is that you have to ask yourself "what is best for aikido?" and do that. I fully believe in the the Ghandi saying "satya-grah" which means "protest for truth." You speak up without fear of the counter attacks from the supposed fraudster and their supporters (like Dave Humm was mentioning). What the heck was all of that "enter without fear" training for if you cannot apply it? Aikido is worth protecting! What's the big fear anyway? - I'm not running for aikido class president or king of the prom.

As far as the devil's advocate sub-thread here about O-sensei, didn't he welcome all challengers? I have to say that if some guy just announces he is self-taught, but he's got the stuff and welcomes all challengers well I have no problem with that.

Rob
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:35 PM   #47
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Given he had students he had awarded a 2nd kyu to and they were starting to help teach classes, I try not to imagine what it would have evolved into in 5 more years.

nipped it in the bud.
I appreciate you may not want to answer this question, but I'm really curious on a technical level: what did this end up looking like? Was it sloppy-but-aikido-like or was it evolving into something else?

Mary Kaye
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:06 PM   #48
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
We'll get people in who assume we're a rinky-dink facility because we don't have: .. the heads of our vanquished opponents displayed on pikes.
Bronson
You don't?!? What's wrong with you then? Not to have heads on pikes; why next you'll be saying you don't even brand yourselved for the shodan test anymore!
Geez; the MA is really getting soft nowadays!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:41 PM   #49
JayRhone
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.
Hmmm. How many billions of people are there in the world? I dunno. But divide it by 30 and see the percentage of people in the world with these ceritifications. Heheheheh. -Jay

Be the water, not the rock
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:20 PM   #50
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote:
FWIW who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think....
IIRC, founders and their progeny typically have no rank. This includes the 2nd and 3rd Doshu, too.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.
Chris, wasn't kyoju dairi the highest rank Takeda gave at the time UM received it? Didn't Hisa, or someone around Hisa, talk Takeda into giving menkyo kaiden?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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