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Old 01-27-2005, 01:11 AM   #301
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Thanks for the feedback David. You are right-the kyu stuff was overkill so I removed it.

The Lineage chart was not intended to show generations as much as lines of authority. Although Tohei and Doshu were in the same generation, I viewed the lineage more along the lines of who had the authority. Then I put the shihan's on the next level regardless of rank (6th to 8th dan). Then the sensei's more along the same level regardless of rank. I was trying to keep it as condensed and uncomplicated as possible. I'm not real sure who is what generation since I don't have Stan's flow chart. Just my thoughts.

Here's my ranking of how they related.
O'Sensei
Doshu
Shihans
Senseis

Any other thoughts on this?
Dear John,

I have been watching from the sidelines and I think that what you are doing is very valuable and I think it is something that the IAF should consider using. I have a few other thoughts.

I think that to put shihans and senseis in the same category is to compare apples and oranges. In other words, all shihans are senseis but not all senseis are shihans. 'Sensei' is a general title that applies to all teachers from O Sensei downwards, but shihan is something more specific. Thus, I think it is incorrect to refer to yourself as Sensei Riggs on your web site. A sensei NEVER uses the title to refer to himself/herself, and the title usually follows the name; it does not precede it. I think Dr John Riggs would be perfectly acceptable as your aikido title on your web site.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:53 AM   #302
David Yap
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
So where does sandai doshu fall? Would he then be below the shihans on the lineage? Are you suggesting the lineage go by generation rather than heirarchy? I'm not sure how to lay it out on that basis since I don't know all the generations.
John,

Assuming Sandai Doshu learns from his father, then, he would be in same generation with the shihan who were taught by his father or K Tohei. Of course, at that level you can put him above the rest based on ranking. You can qualify/state in your chart that the lineage is based on the time/era the art was transmitted.

Again my 2 sen, now that's 6 sen you owe me (that's equivalent to one and half dime)

Regards

David
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Old 01-27-2005, 02:54 AM   #303
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Re: Aikido Frauds

So, where would the like of Shiodo Gozo be? Shihan? He is not an Aikikai Shihan - does Aikikai recognise him as Shihan? Perhaps in such cases, you follow the titles as used by other schools - Yoshinkan / Tomiki etc. At what levels doe their Sensei become Shihan?

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Old 01-27-2005, 03:10 AM   #304
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Shioda / Tomiki / Saito / Tohei - what do we call them? Shihan? They created their styles - I call them Sensei on my website - just changed a few to Shihan but it seems odd. Maybe I'll just stick with Sensei - far easier. What do you think?

And many others - Kenshiro Abe / Chiba Kazuo - are they Shihan too?

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Old 01-27-2005, 04:39 AM   #305
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
So where does sandai doshu fall? Would he then be below the shihans on the lineage? Are you suggesting the lineage go by generation rather than heirarchy? I'm not sure how to lay it out on that basis since I don't know all the generations.
Doshu will always be above Shihan, whether he is ni dai doshu, san dai doshu or ju dai doshu. Doshu is the head of the organisation, usually a family inherited title, regardless of age and experience.

Regards

Bryan

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Old 01-27-2005, 06:03 AM   #306
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Dear John,

I have been watching from the sidelines and I think that what you are doing is very valuable and I think it is something that the IAF should consider using. I have a few other thoughts.

I think that to put shihans and senseis in the same category is to compare apples and oranges. In other words, all shihans are senseis but not all senseis are shihans. 'Sensei' is a general title that applies to all teachers from O Sensei downwards, but shihan is something more specific. Thus, I think it is incorrect to refer to yourself as Sensei Riggs on your web site. A sensei NEVER uses the title to refer to himself/herself, and the title usually follows the name; it does not precede it. I think Dr John Riggs would be perfectly acceptable as your aikido title on your web site.

Best regards,
Peter, thanks for your comments. I had used the Dr. John Riggs before and several people suggesting taking it out as it was not an aikido title. Is it appropriate to refer to my assistant instructors as sensei?

On the shihan/sensei issue are your referring to the lineage chart? If so, how would you suggest doing it? I am trying to reflect a lineage in each group I studied under. My thought was to organize by heirarchial rank- O'Sensei, doshus, shihans, senseis.

Thank you on the comments of this being valuable. My thoughts are if you have nothing to hide throw it out there.
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Old 01-27-2005, 06:55 AM   #307
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Peter, thanks for your comments. I had used the Dr. John Riggs before and several people suggesting taking it out as it was not an aikido title. Is it appropriate to refer to my assistant instructors as sensei?
I do not think so. If you were to follow Japanese custom, as at the Aikikai Hombu, then the list would be:
Doshu,
Shihan
Shidoin
Fukushidoin

However, in the local organization, the instructors and those in charge are all referred to as shidousha (instructors) or dojo sekininsha (hard to translate - it means those responsible for the dojo). The person in overall charge is referred to as Dojo-cho or Shibu-cho (Dojo Head / Branch Dojo Head).

Of course I know that Japanese custom is not always in sync with American custom, where it seems that sensei and sempai are used much more commonly than in Japan. However, to me it grates when these terms are used in a manner divorced from their Japanese context.

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
On the shihan/sensei issue are your referring to the lineage chart? If so, how would you suggest doing it? I am trying to reflect a lineage in each group I studied under. My thought was to organize by heirarchial rank- O'Sensei, doshus, shihans, senseis.
The problem with the lineage chart is that it deals with individuals and not organizations and mixes functions with titles. As such it does not mirror the Aikikai Hombu's current thinking. Thus, I am the chief instructor of a group of dojos in Holland because I am the senior member of the group's technical committee. All decisions on ranks etc are made by the committee and communicated to Hombu by the president of the organization. The Aikikai has recognized the organization and so accepts the decisions taken by its techical committee.
So the list would be:
Doshu
Hombu
XXX Aikido Federation
Chief Instructor of XXX Aikido Federation. or
Instructor, YYY Branch Dojo of XXX Federation

I think a lineage chart would be somewhat different. For example, I could trace my lineage with a list of successive teachers\and their links with the Hombu, or with a list of those who have awarded my dan ranks, from shodan to my present rank. It would be the individual teacher that matters here, rather than the position or title that he/she has. They might be shihan, and in fact all are, but they would all be referred to as Sensei in certain situations.

Best regards,

PAG

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Old 01-27-2005, 07:47 AM   #308
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I do not think so. If you were to follow Japanese custom, as at the Aikikai Hombu, then the list would be:
Doshu,
Shihan
Shidoin
Fukushidoin
PAG
I see. Sensei is a general title from what I have read. Whereas the above are specific levels within that title. I have seen organizations stick the sensei title in after the shidoin. I don't know if that accurate but it would seem strange. I do recall a CD section on Japanese (just starting to learn a little in my spare time) referring to using the term kyoshi (I believe) in referring to oneself as a teacher. Is that correct?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
However, in the local organization, the instructors and those in charge are all referred to as shidousha (instructors) or dojo sekininsha (hard to translate - it means those responsible for the dojo). The person in overall charge is referred to as Dojo-cho or Shibu-cho (Dojo Head / Branch Dojo Head).

Of course I know that Japanese custom is not always in sync with American custom, where it seems that sensei and sempai are used much more commonly than in Japan. However, to me it grates when these terms are used in a manner divorced from their Japanese context.PAG
I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
The problem with the lineage chart is that it deals with individuals and not organizations and mixes functions with titles. As such it does not mirror the Aikikai Hombu's current thinking. Thus, I am the chief instructor of a group of dojos in Holland because I am the senior member of the group's technical committee. All decisions on ranks etc are made by the committee and communicated to Hombu by the president of the organization. The Aikikai has recognized the organization and so accepts the decisions taken by its techical committee.
So the list would be:
Doshu
Hombu
XXX Aikido Federation
Chief Instructor of XXX Aikido Federation. or
Instructor, YYY Branch Dojo of XXX Federation

I think a lineage chart would be somewhat different. For example, I could trace my lineage with a list of successive teachers\and their links with the Hombu, or with a list of those who have awarded my dan ranks, from shodan to my present rank. It would be the individual teacher that matters here, rather than the position or title that he/she has. They might be shihan, and in fact all are, but they would all be referred to as Sensei in certain situations.PAG
So, would it make more sense to do as I did in the lineage chart or would changes be recommended. I'm evolving this as I get input and want to make it reflective of how Hombu would do it or how it would be done appropriately. However, I also want to be able to show my training lineage in a fashion that appropriately documents the flow. Perhaps I need to have a small chart showing organizations and another showing instructors.

Thanks for your input. It is good to have someone that understands the Japanese perspective and help keep us from looking too silly. Often times when one does not understand the cultural context, things are made up simply by translating to the English without understanding correct terms or usage. I'm sure we get laughed at when we do this. Interestingly, some of the frauds we have discussed on the thread really botch things like made up certificates when they try to be Japanese sounding with little knowledge of what they are doing.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:10 AM   #309
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Re: Aikido Frauds

John,

I think you are moving away from your objectives. Your prime objective is to represent yourself and your dojo as legitimate. Either you go straight to the point - I belong to this organization who is headed by this particular person and this organization is affiliated to this international body headquartered at X city, X country headed by this person who was a direct student of the founder/who is the grandson of the founder (delete where applicable) or put in a lineage chart.

If you choose to put in a lineage chart which says/shows, " I study with this person who learned the art from this person and whom himself learned from this person... Even for lineage purpose, you should forget your past instructors, it is your present instructor and organization that matters. You representing to others that your current organization is legitimate and this legitimacy gives credibility to you. If you try to put as much information as you can that you cannot organize or manage them it can only create confusion. It is the PRESENT that matters most. I think your problem(s) is/are caused by your genuine attempt to create a "template" for others to follow. My advice is don't, I think everyone can manage on their own to prove their legitimacy . The point is if your current rank is legitimate, then you are legitimate; if your current rank is not legitimate, then it is not legitimate period. Past considerations (legitimacy) are not considerations (present legitimacy) as an attorney would put it.

Sensei in kanji (Chinese or Japanese) means "borned first" or simply "the one who comes before", hence the person with prior knowledge. If you are my teacher, with respect I would address you as Riggs sensei (simply translated Mr. Riggs - the one who comes before me/the one who has more knowledge than me). It sounds absolutely silly if you address yourself as Riggs who comes before me/the one who has more knowledge than me and that person(s) would be the Riggs elder than you (your dad, uncles, elder siblings, etc). It is simply a "title" used to address an elder person or to a person who will impart knowledge to you.

In your context, you attempt to write in a 3rd person role. You should bear in mind that writing a testimonial about your own self is not exactly a testimonial at all. A testimonial should at its best be written by someone who knows you. If your representation is in the form of a CV, then it would be done with humility (I am not saying you are not ). You should distance yourself from the frauds. If you notice, frauds have big inflated egos, they address themselves with titles like Soke, Kancho, etc.

I do apologize if you find my comments offensive in anyway. They are not meant to be. My bluntness has put me in hot soup in the past.

Regards

David Y

Last edited by David Yap : 01-27-2005 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:45 AM   #310
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I should:
Quote:
instead wrote:
snip...You are representing to others that your current organization is legitimate and this legitimacy gives credibility to your to current rank. If you try to put too much information that you cannot organize/manage them it may only create confusion...snip
and
Quote:
instead wrote:
snip..When you attempt to write as a 3rd person, you should bear in mind that writing a testimonial about your ownself is not exactly a testimonial at all. A testimonial should at its best be written by someone who knows you. If your representation is in the form of a CV, then it should be done with humility (I am not saying you are not ). snip
Sorry. My editing was beyond the time permitted.

David
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:48 AM   #311
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Thanks David. No I did not find your comments offensive. I was trying to write in the 3rd person which is what I have seen done on other sites. Probably would be better off just writing it neutral. The title sensei is used on sites quite regularly although as you and PAG have pointed out incorrectly.
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:11 PM   #312
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.
actually, if you look at me website
http://www.houstonkiaikido.org/

You will see that I have avoided use the term sensei for myself.
I think on my bio page you get a decent sense of my lineage and associations and experience without a complicated listing of my rank history.

I appreciate what you have done on your website, but it seems overly complicated for someone visiting your site who doesn't know much. (It's better than the first try but still a lot to read.)

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Old 01-27-2005, 12:24 PM   #313
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Thank for the feedback Craig-I tend to be overly detailed sometimes. I am working on paring it down and have done so quite a bit over the last couple of days. I do feel the dan rank chart however provides a simple but accurate depiction of my history which can be verified. I'm doing this to set an example. My hope is it may make some of the frauds think twice about slapping the aikido label on their art. I'm still evolving and paring down the site. I know the lineage needs work. I liked your bio section and am in the process of rewriting mine.

You did a good job of not using sensei to refer to yourself on yours. However, I ran across a recent 6th dan aikikai and they had it all over the place. Hopefully, over the next couple of weeks I will continue to get things pared down (you should have seen it earlier ).
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:55 PM   #314
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Re: Aikido Frauds

P.S. It looks like it is more with the larger type (yours is small). It helps us visually deteriorating older ones read it.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:13 PM   #315
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I see. Sensei is a general title from what I have read. Whereas the above are specific levels within that title. I have seen organizations stick the sensei title in after the shidoin. I don't know if that accurate but it would seem strange. I do recall a CD section on Japanese (just starting to learn a little in my spare time) referring to using the term kyoshi (I believe) in referring to oneself as a teacher. Is that correct?
As you probably know, Japanese is a language loaded with honorifics and humble modes of speech and the antennae of most Japanese are notoriously well-tuned for the use of such honorifics. Thus, there are loads of terms which denote 'teacher' or 'instructor', each with a nuance depending on the characters used and its place on the honorifics scale. In fact, every single meeting at Hiroshima University is an exercise in the use of honorifics. Thus, no one, absolutely no one, will ever use the term 'sensei' to refer himself/herself. Sometimes a new foreign teacher, who is not aware of this will refer to himself as 'Sensei' and you can almost feel the collective reaction to the mistake. Usually the least honorific 'kyoin' is preferred. 'Kyoshi' and 'koshi' are both instructor categories with differing nuances, as is shidosha and shidoin. However, there are no specific levels within the title of 'sensei', as you have suggested. One is either sensei or not, with no gradations. Thus, all the 2,000-odd members of the teaching faculty are referred to by their colleagues or students as 'Sensei', regardless of their titles and categories.

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.
Yes, the problem for me is the degree to which Japanese has to be imperialistic in the world of aikido, which is why I was reluctant to say anything until I had seen your web site. One could perhaps argue that 'sensei' has been transplanted to other places and that, having become somewhat anglicized, it can be used as the new users want, not as it is used at home. Because I live here, and my own Japanese honorific antenna also functions, I have a bias in favour of using the term in its original context. But I am aware that others might not share this view.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:53 PM   #316
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Your knowledge of Japanese is very helpful for us who do not speak the language and make a lot of faux pas when using terms. I appreciate your comments.

From an Aikido perspective:
1. If I was responding to a question by stating I was an Aikido instructor, would I use the term kyoin (bear with me: watashi wa kyonin desu-not sure where the aikido would go). I am just learning so I don't know if that would be correct. Or, would I use the word shidousha?
2. Would I refer to my assistant instructors as shidousha as well or fuku-shidoin? Dont mean to bother you for a language lession. I think the whole of America is likely using things incorrectly on our websites-probably due to our lack of knowledge of the language.

I am working on cleaning up the sensei issues.
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:19 AM   #317
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I am working on cleaning up the sensei issues.
Hi John,

Like Peter, it's a pet peeve of mine when Japanese titles are used incorrectly in western dojos. I read your bio yesterday but didn't say anyjthing, it reads a lot better today .

I'm currently writing a small (growing fast) piece for our club newsletter on Sensei, Sempai and Kohai. It borrows heavily from a piece written by Wayne Muramoto at Furyu.com (http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs2.html), although I am rewording it a little, modifying it and adding to it .

Regards

Bryan

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Old 01-28-2005, 02:09 AM   #318
Charles Hill
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Re: Aikido Frauds

John,

I think it helps to remember that "sensei" is a title given "up" that is, from someone lower to someone higher. Titles like "shihan," "shidouin," and the like are given down. They are like "phd" which is awarded from a organization with power to an individual without that power.

Personally, I don`t see what is wrong with "head instructor" and "assistant instructor."

Prof. Goldsbury,

Since we are on the topic, what would be the difference between fukushidouin and junshidouin?

Thank you,
Charles
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Old 01-28-2005, 03:12 AM   #319
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Re: Aikido Frauds

OK - Now, if you are into the terminology, here is a chichi-soke, if you scroll down FAR enough, you will find he is Aikido 6th Dan. Now, something tells me he will not be registered at Aikikai Hombu. Maybe it is the sixteen other 10th Dans listed on his page.

http://www.usjiujitsu.org/OushiBio.htm

Also from that site:
Disclaimer
The United States Jiu Jitsu Alliance will not tolerate or accept any unprofessional behavior...


Not only that, he seems to also be a 4th Dan at a style I made up myself while waiting for a bus - Nobo-jutsu (He calls it Buki-Nobo-Jutsu - must be a branch school -where are my dues?). I introduced the link to Nobo-jutsu earlier I think. Here it is again:
http://aikido-in-korea.com/nobo-jutsu.html

Is that site for real?

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 01-28-2005 at 03:18 AM.

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Old 01-28-2005, 03:58 AM   #320
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Chichi huh!

For anyone who understands Japanese, it's probably a very appropriate word for the chap

He must have to charge a fortune in class fees in order to pay for that impressive display of certificates

http://usjiujitsu.org/v-web/gallery/...6th_Dan_Aikido


What the hell does oushi mean? I can find reference to anime, and to it in a computer game (shinobi), it can translate as bull or ox, or apparently even violent death, but I can't find any reference to it being a title, or being used as a title by anyone other than this chap.

Maybe this reference to plums is a more appropriate use?

OUSHI-WASE (pronounced "wishy-washy") A new introduction from Japan. Looks very promising in early trials in Hudson Valley, NY and in Vineland, Ontario. SOLD OUT for 2004

OK, just been through 20 pages of Google search results, with nothing further to add, am now bored

I think I'll go and print up a 6th Dan certificate for myself for something to do .

rgds

Bryan

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Old 01-28-2005, 05:54 AM   #321
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:

Prof. Goldsbury,

Since we are on the topic, what would be the difference between fukushidouin and junshidouin?

Thank you,
Charles
I think in English, the closest sense to 'jun' would be something like 'provisional', 'quasi-' or 'as if..' For example, a few years ago the Aikikai wanted to change the rule of one recognized aikido organization per country. They did not just go ahead and change it; as a first step they introduced a new category, which they called 'jun-kounin'. The English term agreed for this category, after much discussion and argument, was 'provisional recognition'.

As you can see, there is a different meaning here from 'fuku-', which means 'assistant' or 'deputy'.

Actually, I took a look at the Aikikai's English web site today (aikikai.or.jp) the word 'sensei' does not appear anywhere on the entire site, so far as I can see.

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-28-2005 at 05:57 AM.

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Old 01-28-2005, 06:43 AM   #322
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Rupert: Your site is funny. I imagine a real humorous site could be developed with some of the stuff I see on these sites. That guy had more high ranks-including aikido 6th dan-than one can imagine. Red flag. Red flag.

Chichi in Spanish-doesn't that mean breasts. So he's the family inheritor of the art of breasts? Hmmm.Or would that be better interpreted as the head boob?
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Old 01-28-2005, 06:50 AM   #323
batemanb
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Oh my.

I was just browsing a bit more on the word oushi, I found Chichi Oushi Sandlin's website. A very intersting number of photographs. I'm not sure which one I like best, the lilac dogi or the camouflage dogi?

http://usjiujitsu.org/sandlinryu_gallery.html

The only reason I've come back into this is I just did a search for him on e-budo, found this. The tears of mirth are still flowing and my tummy hurts from laughing so much (I swear that is one of the Hanson brothers )

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...hlight=sandlin


Laughing my @$*! off


Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:56 AM   #324
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Oh brother, another one for my list: Alliance of United Aikido Federation (red flag), United Martial Arts Alliance Sokeship, Head Founders, Head Families Council (red flags, red flags, red flags).
He has 5 10th dans in arts he created, 6 8th dans, 2 7th dans, 7 6th dans, 5 4th dans and 12 2nd dans. There's at least 35 red flags. Half the certificates were hand written information-seems a little unprofessional or questionable.

Chichi in my Japanese dictionary means father or milk. So if we use Chichi Soke does that mean father head or head father (sounds redundant)? At least he only claims 6th dan rank in aikido and does not profess to teach it.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:59 AM   #325
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

"What the hell does oushi mean?" Byran I got the impression it was being used as a first name and not a title. Although, he was refered to as Jay in other places. I couldn't find it in my little Japanese dictionary.
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