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Old 01-10-2005, 01:21 PM   #251
Ali B
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Re: Aikido Frauds

There are some excellent independent teachers out there guys, please don't let us forget that a piece of paper, or even 30 - 40 years experience of a direct link to O sensei cannot guarantee a grasp on what he was trying to teach. Many have the knowledge but how many are truly understanding it?

I do not promote fake or fraudulent teachers in any way. The so called 11th dan "Master" I told you about in my previous post was a bit of laughing stock within the aikido community in his area. Needless to say, his dojo closed down within 1 year - good riddance. I am sure some of his students wasted time, money and effort with that man and I am truly sorry about that.

The snobbery I am talking about is something I am guilty of too - even the true masters have their egos . If a person thinks that buying an aikido grade will make them good, then they have a problem because they never get to experience our art for real, thats their true loss. As far as their students are concerned, well that is a different matter. I just don't see any way of policing it, I still think it could be dangerous to criticise the teaching of others, for all we know they could be so advanced, their techniques so much higher than ours that that we cannot "get it", maybe not.

Love and light
Ali
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Old 01-10-2005, 01:48 PM   #252
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Alison,

If it's one thing I know... it is that when you see the truth of something, there is no denying it. Truth can not be denied, because it IS.

If Ledyard Sensei were to walk into my dojo and look at me and ask, "What the hell martial art is that?" then I'd begin to wonder whether I had been training in aikido or not for the last 3 years. If I were to walk into another dojo and not recognize what they were doing, I would wonder about them.

It is not a question of someone being "...so advanced, their techniques so much higher than ours that we cannon get it." If someone were truly that advanced, there were would be NO DOUBT!

People getting called out for their lack of skill or creditials HAVE to be able to back it up. And I'm not speaking from snobbery here, but rather against theirs. And yes, speaking out against fraud IS dangerous... but that is the price we have to pay to keep aikido throughout the WHOLE world honest. Otherwise, the art becomes tainted and diluted in with the muck and falls by the wayside as "just another karate thing."

Sometime in our lives we should feel compelled to stand up for something... anything, even if it just ourselves. For those who can stomach it, they can stand up for Aikido as well, and I'm sure many in the world will be greatful for the effort.

Last edited by John Boswell : 01-10-2005 at 01:51 PM.

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Old 01-10-2005, 02:22 PM   #253
Big Dave
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Re: Aikido Frauds

I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had PhD's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:59 PM   #254
Ali B
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Yes! Thats my point John. When you see the truth there is no denying it! If Ledyard Sensei were to walk into my dojo, are we suggesting he is not the real thing if he does not have a piece of paper saying so? Or a direct line to O sensei?

I was trying to be funny about the Higher techniques, etc. This is obviously something you feel strongly about and I am sorry to offended you. I was not suggesting for a minute that we put up with the fakies, only asking where do we draw the line?

I agree about the need to stop aikido being watered down, but if so, which schools should we protect? Should we ask all the other schools to change their name to something else? Who gets to decide who is in and who is out because IMHO, there are as many styles as there are aikidoka, therefore it would be impossible.

Love and light
Ali

Last edited by Ali B : 01-10-2005 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:07 PM   #255
aikidoc
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Disgust Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
David Peling wrote:
I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had Ph D's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

That's the point David. You don't go to school to get one per se. You get one by being in the arts a set amount of time and achieving a certain rank (apparently it's ok to award it to yourself). I don't know how they get by with it since most states regulate the granting of such titles. I think I'd be embarrassed to call myself doctor of the martial arts.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:18 PM   #256
David Humm
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
....speaking out against fraud IS dangerous... but that is the price we have to pay to keep aikido throughout the WHOLE world honest. Otherwise, the art becomes tainted and diluted in with the muck and falls by the wayside as "just another karate thing."

Sometime in our lives we should feel compelled to stand up for something... anything, even if it just ourselves. For those who can stomach it, they can stand up for Aikido as well, and I'm sure many in the world will be greatful for the effort.
John... I think you'd be surprised at the "live and let live" mentalilty of those who'd rather not 'concern' themselves with anything other than what's in front of them.

You are 100% right when you say speaking out is dangerous but, I feel the "danger" is worth the effort. If more of us took a stand against these people who seek to bolster their ego, and in doing so lie to others, the process which we are seeing today IE a PhD in MA ?? and all the rest of the bullshit would be that much slower.

Here in the UK we (those who care to look) are seeing a slow but growing trend in grossly inflated grades, experience and general BS, before long things will get worse.

Regards

Last edited by David Humm : 01-10-2005 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:24 PM   #257
Ali B
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Re: Aikido Frauds

John, I Have just had a look at the "real" aikido forum. Ha Ha

Forget what I just said... I want to reiterate that I whole heartedly agree there is a problem with people appointing themselves a grade, etc and then pronouncing that the C*** they teach is real aikido.

STOP THEM!
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:46 PM   #258
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
David Peling wrote:
I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had PhD's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

You misunderstand the abbreviation here.

it's not Ph.D. but actually

P. h. D. == Piled higher and Deeper!


---

ps. so Dr. in front of the name makes perfect sense.
only tradition keeps the initials following the name.
The meaning would be most clear as Dr. P.h.D. so-and-so.

Last edited by kironin : 01-10-2005 at 03:55 PM.

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Old 01-10-2005, 04:35 PM   #259
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido Frauds

P. h. D. == Piled higher and Deeper! That's about what the degree is worth (the stuff in the pile). I wonder if they charge for the degree. This could be a real fraud issue in some states where this is regulated-in spite of their disclaimer. "All of our degrees are not to be confused with traditional University degrees !!! They are for Martial Arts only, not for academic uses and should not be used for any other purpose !!! How you use your degree is completely your responsibility!!!" So you tell me they are worthless as an academic degree so why would someone want one.

Last edited by aikidoc : 01-10-2005 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:55 PM   #260
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Re: Aikido Frauds

It would be kind of difficult to pin that sort of thing down, if a person went to school and completed their Ph.D they are entitled to use the appellation as a sign-off, isn't that so? Even if it creates a sort of misrepresentation by omission of explanation what topic of study the Ph.D was awarded for. Or am I wrong?
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:58 PM   #261
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
It would be kind of difficult to pin that sort of thing down, if a person went to school and completed their Ph.D they are entitled to use the appellation as a sign-off, isn't that so? Even if it creates a sort of misrepresentation by omission of explanation what topic of study the Ph.D was awarded for. Or am I wrong?
Yes, if the person actually "went to school and earned the Ph.D they would be entitled to use the sign off. However, this is not even a mail order degree. They are not an authorized degree granting institution. That is, it is a fake degree awarded by people who awarded themselves Ph.Ds. Hey, if you earn it use the title-I use mine. However, to earn a doctorate you are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 years of college. They are doing this in a couple of months with a two year limitation. Life experience counts I guess.
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:55 PM   #262
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:

Nariyama Shihan after over 20 years as 7th Dan assumed 8th Dan - there was no one to give him the rank. There were a few reasons for it - one it allowed other people to be promoted that deserved it and two 8th Dan was supposed to be the top rank in the JAA. Now you are saying he's suspicious.

This may get me flamed but I am curious, I know very little about customary rank promotional norms in Japan. Is it considered to be an unexceptional practice to assume a higher rank in terms of how they do things over there (and for the reasons you enumerate)? If so, wouldn't it seem that there is precedent for others who wish to make use of self-awarded rank? Excuse me, not meaning to offend anyone, I am not at all knowlegeable about these matters.
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:03 PM   #263
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido Frauds

My point is that there is precedent - I used an example close to home.

I took exception to people describing behaviour as fraudulent when it is just different from the way they do things.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:26 PM   #264
Lan Powers
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
My point is that there is precedent - I used an example close to home.

I took exception to people describing behaviour as fraudulent when it is just different from the way they do things.

Precedent for promotion from a lifetime of training in the art, of course.
I believe this is a different situation from the people who hold rank NOWHERE NEAR the accomplishments of Nariyama Sensei.
I doubt that the difference is just the amount of time.

The skill level.
The actual time of training in the art.(He has the mileage )
The fact that the training time is actually in THIS art.
(Not Karate, or whatever.. and granted rank from the same)
Not to mention the intent...(Giving to the art, vs "rank" to gain profits from prospective students.)

Lots of difference, I think.
Just a opinion from the cheap seats...
Lan

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Old 01-10-2005, 09:33 PM   #265
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Re: Aikido Frauds

It's so interesting human perception. How we continually see what we want to see.

I remember it being indicated at different points in the thread that the concept of fraudulence had nothing to do with Independent organisations whose instructors actually had training in the art from a recognised instructor who had lineage that led back to the Founder of the art at some point. Yet many continue to rehash the subject (not saying that Linda's post is one of these - its just an observation I made about some posts).

It is one thing to award oneself rank in an organisation that one has formed and has trained to a certain degree of proficiency where one's knowledge and skill can support any challenge to that rank. It is quite another to train in one martial art and assume rank in another - this is what we are referring to as fraudulent behaviour e.g. a Jujutsuka assuming 10th Dan in Aikido because he saw some video tapes and can mix what he saw with his Jujutsu curriculum and fool some folks who can't tell the difference.

The case of Nariyama Shihan quoted by Linda could apply to every other head of every non-Aikikai style (since each successive Doshu is the head there) in existence and the members who carried on after the death of the Founders of these particular styles (e.g. the first successors of G. Shioda, K. Tohei, M. Saito, M. Mochizuki etc.). These people, if not ranked to a certain level commensurate with being the head of the style by the same style's Founder by the time of that Founder's death, will have no one qualified enough to rank them later on anyway. At this point the decision may be made by some sort of legal entity (an association or federation that represents the style) that takes the responsibility of making the decision, or the person may just assume the rank after having progressed over a certain period of time commensurate with the next upward move in grade. What would have happened to the first Aikikai Doshu if Ueshiba M. had passed away at a time when the former was only at Ikkyu level and not yet ready to assume the technical reigns of the organisation? When Tomiki died, Nariyama was 7th Dan (at least in my limited knowledge) and left with the responsibility of carrying on the Shodokan system afaik. Again there was no one higher in rank to grade him, but as far as I see, those who profess to be heads of certain styles tend to have a certain rank as well (no one pays attention to a Shodan who decides to form his own new style correct?), as such Nariyama was placed in a position where 8th Dan was assumed, to this date it is the highest Dan ranking one can attain in Shodokan (out of respect for Tomiki Sensei (9th Dan) as well I have been told).

Assuming rank that can be supported by one's skill and kowledge in the art is one thing, assuming rank that one has not training to support is quite something else.

Just my thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-10-2005 at 09:36 PM.

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Old 01-10-2005, 09:34 PM   #266
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Re: Aikido Frauds

The discussion and John's thesis has evolved quite a bit since my original mention of Nariyama Shihan.
He is also not the only one who I consider justified in self promotion and all are contrary to the idea that self promotion by itself is an indicator of fraud.

Now a 35 year old tenth dan soke grandmaster from where ever is another matter.

By the way Larry - Tomiki K. was awarded 8th Dan by Ueshiba M. in 1942 and took no higher grade. Tomiki K. did award Ohba H. 9th Dan just before he died. I do think that 8th Dan is the highest rank in the JAA today and is appropriate for the Head Instructor of the style. There are a few of Nariyama Shihan's sempai that are 8th Dan.

Last edited by PeterR : 01-10-2005 at 09:45 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:00 PM   #267
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
This may get me flamed but I am curious, I know very little about customary rank promotional norms in Japan. Is it considered to be an unexceptional practice to assume a higher rank in terms of how they do things over there (and for the reasons you enumerate)? If so, wouldn't it seem that there is precedent for others who wish to make use of self-awarded rank? Excuse me, not meaning to offend anyone, I am not at all knowlegeable about these matters.
Nariyama Shihan is part of a system with clear precedents in terms of skill and the number of years of training. Where you have a system with numbered dan ranks, you have the problem of deciding the equivalence in terms of skill and the number of years put in. It is fairly well recognized in Japan that 8th dan is equivalent to menkyo-kaiden and, to keep within Shodokan, when Morihei Ueshiba switched to dan ranks, Kenji Tomiki received 8th dan.

However, Morihei Ueshiba never had a rank and neither did/do his successors. If you are Doshu, you are head of the system, period. Having a rank as well is pointless. However you need a 'do' to be the 'shu' of and similarly with a 'soke'. A soke needs a 'ke': it is not merely a title.

Another word for 'ke' is 'ie' and the 'iemoto' system became common in Japanese traditional arts during the Genroku Era (in the Togugawa period), when these arts became more popular. Previously, the 'do' model of individual teacher and student, both progressing along the Way and reaching successive levels of awareness (both physical and spiritual), was a sufficient conceptual basis for the art, but the iemoto model adds a much sharper sense of regulation within a system.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:10 PM   #268
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
What would have happened to the first Aikikai Doshu if Ueshiba M. had passed away at a time when the former was only at Ikkyu level and not yet ready to assume the technical reigns of the organisation?
LC
I think you mean the second Doshu. Morihei Ueshiba himself was the first. This issue was clearly in the minds of some people when Kisshomaru Ueshiba passed away. The particular custom of the iemoto paradigm followed by the Aikikai Hombu is that the successor is the son of the previous Doshu and so Moriteru Ueshiba assumed the role wirth the agreement of the Zaidan Houjin Aikikai, which is the legal body controlling the Aikikai Hombu. It is not unknown in the iemoto system to have members at a higher technical level than the head. It is assumed that the person will grow into the role and Mitsuteru Ueshiba, the son of the present Doshu, is now doing some serious training.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:22 PM   #269
kung fu hamster
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Many thanks for the illuminating replies, I am not in any way trying to suggest that sensei's of that calibre are 'suspicious', and I agree that MA frauds are not a good thing, someone could get seriously hurt.

As Hombu dojo already has a mechanism in place to do the lineage research, I wonder if it would seem a little presumptuous to them for further measures to be taken such as trying to establish an equivalent of a 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval' for aikido dojos or organizations. (ok, getting ready for some real serious flaming)
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:48 PM   #270
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
Many thanks for the illuminating replies, I am not in any way trying to suggest that sensei's of that calibre are 'suspicious', and I agree that MA frauds are not a good thing, someone could get seriously hurt.

As Hombu dojo already has a mechanism in place to do the lineage research, I wonder if it would seem a little presumptuous to them for further measures to be taken such as trying to establish an equivalent of a 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval' for aikido dojos or organizations. (ok, getting ready for some real serious flaming)
I do not think your post needs any flaming. However, I would think that the Hombu Dojo feels that the 'seal of approval' exists already, in the regulations it has for giving Official Recognition to aikido organizations established overseas. The regulations for dan ranks apply in Japan as well.

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Old 01-10-2005, 10:57 PM   #271
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Yes, that's what I mean. That is the mechanism of which I spoke. I'm not saying that anyone is going to send out an aiki vigilante posse, but on the whole I think I agree with most of what Mary Eastland posted. Who, if not Hombu dojo, would be setting criteria, this whole concept of policing potential aikido fraud could have the overtones of a despotic condo association if it gets out of hand.
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:01 PM   #272
Dan Rubin
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
By the way, the university section is a real interesting read.
That's nothin'. How about this quote about the Master Council President at http://www.ndcma.com/SifuWilliamRichardson.html

"Sifu is an accomplished fighter, and has been in the ring for eight years, taking no less than first or second place at any fight."

(Actually, this is less a comment about the person than it is about the value of a good editor.)

Dan

Last edited by Dan Rubin : 01-10-2005 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:12 PM   #273
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
Who, if not Hombu dojo, would be setting criteria
I assume you mean Aikikai Honbu which, by very nature of separate organizations, has no right to set criteria outside of their own group.

Just as Yoshinkan or Shodokan Honbu has no right to set Aikikai criteria.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:25 PM   #274
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Well I didn't specify, but that's a really good point you brought up, and it gives me more to think about. Consensus on legitimacy criteria seems to be a very thorny issue.
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:55 PM   #275
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Re: Aikido Frauds

Oh yeah, I forgot how you guys get disgusted by confusing posts which appear to lump the legit dojos with the pure fraud scoundrels, I'm just musing and leaping around from one train of thought to another. Sorreeeee!
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