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Old 02-06-2011, 02:59 PM   #176
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
From Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2009 June; 6(2): 175--183.

Philosophy, Psychology, Physics and Practice of Ki
Hi Demitrio,

thanks for that, I will print that out, it looks like a fascinating read, appreciated.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:44 PM   #177
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

The Nishino mentioned in the article is this gentleman:

Bio:http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e...e_pro_top.html

Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU

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Old 02-06-2011, 05:10 PM   #178
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
no touch throws or not, if you have been conditioned to throw yourself on the ground as a reaction to anything coming towards you before contact has been made, then you are really practicing a dangerous habit
I totally agree with this, Andrew. Where did you read this story about someone throwing themselves on the ground?
My point is that a no touch throw can happen with a little help from the element of surprise, a natural reflex and simple body mechanics. Sempai was standing on one leg, and busy throwing his hips forward when a simple reflex forced his head back. Just try to keep your balance like that.
And guess what? I was never able to repeat this accidental performance because after that day, everybody was waiting for it.
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:42 PM   #179
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The Nishino mentioned in the article is this gentleman:

Bio:http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e...e_pro_top.html

Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU
Hi Demitrio,

having just watched a portion of the youtube video, I think I might save my printer ink. Much of what I saw was just mind bogglingly fake looking. I know there are some things in this world that HTBF, but to see the nonsense on that vid doesn't make me want to explore any writing that this chap put's his name to.
I have taken part in some of the ki exercise type demos that my teacher gives as learning tools, and I know what it is to be thrown by ki and ki alone. I am also aware of the true action of a proper uke, take the throw, get up, and come again. The ukes in that video looked like they were puppet idiots on strings. Either I am being completely cynical or those guys are on another planet.

Also in his biog it is unclear as to how long he spent practicing to become a 'master' at both aikido 'and' kung fu? He must have got all his amazing powers from the kung fu guy, because he didn't learn them from Ueshiba Jnr as he was the one to engineer Tohei out for daring to teach ki-development at all.

I will give the writing a chance, but that vid turned me off. I practice ki-aikido with dedication and sincerity, that vid gives any practice of ki a bad name.

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-06-2011, 08:34 PM   #180
graham christian
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Randall,

Uke does need to be fully committed in his attack. Uke is lead by nage, the point where I differ from you description is that balance is not necessarily broken. I think it is possible to uke through a complete exercise without losing balance. I think it is possible to roll out forwards or backwards without having 'broken' anything. If and only if, the nage applies all of the principles inherent in aikido, the uke follows through the attack and is lead to a roll or avoiding manoeuver (and a possible atemi) simply to maintain co-ordination

That's my take on it anyway.

regards,

Mark
Hi Mark. Just read this thread. I agree with what you say here. There are two ways that I am aware of through experiencing and doing. One is as you say by applying the principles inherent in Aikido but through excellent timing and leading. The second is pure kokyu nage. In both cases there is no uke performing some kind of gyratory puppet dance.
Regards.G.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:53 AM   #181
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
Sempai was standing on one leg, and busy throwing his hips forward when a simple reflex forced his head back. Just try to keep your balance like that.
Hi Marie,

I can't imagine what was going on there. Why would someone be standing on one leg busily throwing their hips forward? There is something lacking in the description, for it to make sense (to me anyway). Please could you elaborate.

regards

Mark

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Old 02-07-2011, 03:13 AM   #182
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I have taken part in some of the ki exercise type demos that my teacher gives as learning tools, and I know what it is to be thrown by ki and ki alone. I am also aware of the true action of a proper uke, take the throw, get up, and come again. The ukes in that video looked like they were puppet idiots on strings. Either I am being completely cynical or those guys are on another planet.
Well, I suppose you have seen demos of Watanabe Nobuyuki (starting at 0:50) or Takeda Nobuyoshi (starting at 1:50) Shihan, both highly regarded Hombu masters. Their uke don't look very different from Nishino ones.

Quote:
Also in his biog it is unclear as to how long he spent practicing to become a 'master' at both aikido 'and' kung fu? He must have got all his amazing powers from the kung fu guy, because he didn't learn them from Ueshiba Jnr as he was the one to engineer Tohei out for daring to teach ki-development at all.
What can be read in this ebudo post is Nishino got his 5th dan in about 5 years of practise and his kungfu master was Kenichi Sawai, who also was friend and big influence in Mas Oyama, Kyokushin Karate founder. Sawai was not a "ki bunny".

OTOH, is suspect the karate master mentioned in the article as able to perform toate is Shintaido founder Hiroyuki Aoki, who was a disciple of Shigeru Egami, Karate legend who studied with Noriaki Inoue (O Sensei's nephew).

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Old 02-07-2011, 04:34 AM   #183
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose you have seen demos of Watanabe Nobuyuki (starting at 0:50) or Takeda Nobuyoshi (starting at 1:50) Shihan, both highly regarded Hombu masters. Their uke don't look very different from Nishino ones.
I'm not sure how highly regarded they are.
I was aware of Watanabe and in the main I can see what he is doing and see that his ukes are following his ki in a very sensitive and 'trained' way. I like this sort of sensitive practice for the sake of practice, however, I think the uke's start to get over enthusiastic in their responses to some of what he is doing.
The same with Takeda, his uke's were more like I was describing in my earlier post and nowhere near as daft as the white clad Nishino puppet dancers.

Quote:
What can be read in this ebudo post is Nishino got his 5th dan in about 5 years of practise and his kungfu master was Kenichi Sawai, who also was friend and big influence in Mas Oyama, Kyokushin Karate founder. Sawai was not a "ki bunny".
A 5th Dan in 4-5 years, in his 50's crikey I am impressed, for most mortals that is just not possible. Again I must be either too cynical or I am losing the plot. On seeing his vid he doesn't seem to have much variety to his movement or technique, just some very very co-operative ukes.

He has a 'breathing method' to sell - his says that cultivation of ki is all from the breathing and nothing to do with the mind. Personally I think he is wrong on that count, but to each his own, eh?

Quote:
OTOH, is suspect the karate master mentioned in the article as able to perform toate is Shintaido founder Hiroyuki Aoki, who was a disciple of Shigeru Egami, Karate legend who studied with Noriaki Inoue (O Sensei's nephew).
I'll do some research when I get some time, thanks for the pointers.

What is your take on this Demetrio, you've provided the source material, but what is your opinion?

In my experience, it is easy to get caught up in believing what you want to believe, simply because it makes life easy for you, this I am guilty of as much as the next man. Ki development and practice is a reality for me and has been for a long while. I am acutely aware though, of keeping it real, I know what is practice, and what is 'in the real world - on the street stuff'. My goal is to search for the truth in each encounter, what is happening and what is not.

The Nishio puppet dancers, look to me as if they are suffering from a collective mass delusion. I would only retract that statement if I met the man in person and he could make me writhe around like an idiot on the floor. If he could do it I would probably want to become a student of his on the spot. Till then I'll stick with my own teacher and draw on his 55 years of experience as my guide.

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-07-2011, 09:46 AM   #184
kewms
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Marie,

I can't imagine what was going on there. Why would someone be standing on one leg busily throwing their hips forward? There is something lacking in the description, for it to make sense (to me anyway). Please could you elaborate.
The simple act of taking a step will put a person on one leg and drive their hips forward. If the space where their head wants to be is suddenly occupied by a solid object -- like a fist -- falling down is a pretty common result.

IMO, though, no touch throws are overrated. They depend on uke's sensitivity and self-preservation instinct, meaning they don't work as well on people in whom those traits are less well-developed. That doesn't mean they're "fake" -- the underlying technique works fine -- just that the "no touch" aspect might be hard to duplicate under less controlled circumstances.

Katherine
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:06 AM   #185
Mike Sigman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
IMO, though, no touch throws are overrated. They depend on uke's sensitivity and self-preservation instinct, meaning they don't work as well on people in whom those traits are less well-developed. That doesn't mean they're "fake" -- the underlying technique works fine -- just that the "no touch" aspect might be hard to duplicate under less controlled circumstances.
NT throws also depend upon getting an attacker to commit himself in a certain direction. To commit his "ki", in other words. That sort of skill of feinting, etc., was a viable area of study in ancient times (as a facet of the whole of martial arts). It wasn't meant to be a "woo woo" thing. And yes, it's hard to duplicate without a lot of practice, etc., and no it's not infallible, just as any technique is not infallible.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:08 AM   #186
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
...having just watched a portion of the youtube video...
That first bit was very much like the Yellow Bamboo vids I've seen. It's one thing to throw yourself, it's another to run backwards for 100 feet before falling down and acting like you got hit by a wayward tree.
The stuff at the end of the vid was a bit more interesting, although I'm not in much of a position to judge one way or another. It looked a bit more practical though.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:44 AM   #187
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The simple act of taking a step will put a person on one leg and drive their hips forward. If the space where their head wants to be is suddenly occupied by a solid object -- like a fist -- falling down is a pretty common result.

IMO, though, no touch throws are overrated. They depend on uke's sensitivity and self-preservation instinct, meaning they don't work as well on people in whom those traits are less well-developed. That doesn't mean they're "fake" -- the underlying technique works fine -- just that the "no touch" aspect might be hard to duplicate under less controlled circumstances.

Katherine
Hi Katherine,

why rate them at all, they are just a part of the totality of aikido practice, they require uke to play a part of course. The also require good timing, extension, intent, connection etc.
One is unlikely to get a 'no touch' moment out of someone who is not quick enough to avoid a strike, the inevitable 'touch' is going to happen.

I don't understand why they generate so much negative airtime, apart from when they are bordering on the ridiculous as per the Nishino clips shown above.

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-07-2011, 11:16 AM   #188
kewms
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I don't understand why they generate so much negative airtime, apart from when they are bordering on the ridiculous as per the Nishino clips shown above.
Two reasons. First, you have ridiculous examples held up (in some quarters) as the height of aikido excellence. And second, the atemis used to effect the throw often don't scare anyone except aikidoka. So a karateka watches a no touch throw and thinks to himself "why on earth would I throw myself on the floor to avoid *that.*"

Katherine
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:21 AM   #189
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Two reasons. First, you have ridiculous examples held up (in some quarters) as the height of aikido excellence. And second, the atemis used to effect the throw often don't scare anyone except aikidoka. So a karateka watches a no touch throw and thinks to himself "why on earth would I throw myself on the floor to avoid *that.*"

Katherine
Of course then we have the thread which is dedicated to the idea that very good stuff can look ridiculous, so to the uninitiated, it's doubly difficult to tell which is which.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-07-2011 at 11:34 AM.

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Old 02-07-2011, 02:56 PM   #190
Janet Rosen
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Of course then we have the thread which is dedicated to the idea that very good stuff can look ridiculous, so to the uninitiated, it's doubly difficult to tell which is which.
Which is why I rarely look at ANYbody's videos....

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:36 PM   #191
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
... And second, the atemis used to effect the throw often don't scare anyone except aikidoka. So a karateka watches a no touch throw and thinks to himself "why on earth would I throw myself on the floor to avoid *that.*"

Katherine
I've accidently hurt people by hitting their fist with my head. Bare fist vs boney skull is a chancy thing.

Mark
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:12 PM   #192
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Which is why I rarely look at ANYbody's videos....
Hi Janet,

shame, because there is some really good stuff out there amongst all the mediocre masses.

for instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ye5D...eature=related

Not aikido, but a real master of his art nonetheless, well worth a few minutes of anyones time.

regards

Mark

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Old 02-07-2011, 04:28 PM   #193
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
for instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ye5D...eature=related

Not aikido, but a real master of his art nonetheless, well worth a few minutes of anyones time.
Mark, I actually know this footage from some time ago when Peter the Budobum sent me the link. It is truly lovely.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:15 AM   #194
Randall Lim
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Randall,

Uke does need to be fully committed in his attack. Uke is lead by nage, the point where I differ from you description is that balance is not necessarily broken. I think it is possible to uke through a complete exercise without losing balance. I think it is possible to roll out forwards or backwards without having 'broken' anything. If and only if, the nage applies all of the principles inherent in aikido, the uke follows through the attack and is lead to a roll or avoiding manoeuver (and a possible atemi) simply to maintain co-ordination

That's my take on it anyway.

regards,

Mark
Hi Mark!

OK. Maybe I have phrased it not too accurately.

What I meant was:
"no touch to the point when Nage feels the need to take a fall"
(for whatever reasons, be it self-protection or tipping of balance).

Randall
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Old 02-08-2011, 05:46 AM   #195
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
I've accidently hurt people by hitting their fist with my head. Bare fist vs boney skull is a chancy thing.

Mark
Hi Mark,

the early 'bare knuckle' pugilists knew this only too well. The introduction of boxing gloves to the sport lead to the increase in brain related damage to boxers, as it no longer became damaging to hit a head with a fist!

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-08-2011, 06:08 AM   #196
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Two reasons. First, you have ridiculous examples held up (in some quarters) as the height of aikido excellence. And second, the atemis used to effect the throw often don't scare anyone except aikidoka. So a karateka watches a no touch throw and thinks to himself "why on earth would I throw myself on the floor to avoid *that.*"

Katherine
Hi Katherine,

could you give some examples of the 'riduculous examples' and who holds them up as the height of aikido excellence?

I agree, to someone trained in a striking art, many aikido atemi will look suspect. Conversely to someone trained in aikido, giving your opponent a foot to play with while you are standing on one leg, raises some questions also.

Every art has its limitations and questionable practices.

No touch throws will continue to generate plenty of positive and negative opinions.

I think they have a valid part to play in aikido practice, as long as they are a result of honest work and not some delusional BS as can be found out there.

regards

Mark

Last edited by Mark Freeman : 02-08-2011 at 06:17 AM.

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Old 02-08-2011, 01:04 PM   #197
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Marie,

I can't imagine what was going on there. Why would someone be standing on one leg busily throwing their hips forward? There is something lacking in the description, for it to make sense (to me anyway). Please could you elaborate.

regards

Mark
Well, Sempai was executing a front kick. Since Aikido techniques require moving in just as soon as the attacker budges, I was near him before he had a chance to bring his kicking foot down.
And when you do a front kick, pushing the hips forward adds both distance and power to the kick.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:25 PM   #198
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
Well, Sempai was executing a front kick. Since Aikido techniques require moving in just as soon as the attacker budges, I was near him before he had a chance to bring his kicking foot down.
And when you do a front kick, pushing the hips forward adds both distance and power to the kick.
Hi Marie,

that makes perfect sense to me now

It also makes me never want to front kick someone who might know how to deal with a kick!

We practice with this type of attack sometimes and the ukemi out of some of the exercises is can be a bit hairy!

thanks for clarifying,

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-11-2011, 06:06 AM   #199
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Hi Marie,

that makes perfect sense to me now

It also makes me never want to front kick someone who might know how to deal with a kick!

Mark
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:06 PM   #200
Keith Burnikell
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Re: No Touch Throws

Nagababa might enjoy this:

Here's a real life story as I remember it was told to me by one of my teachers. He was a participant. 'Uke' was not compliant nor an aikidoka.

Location: Dairy Queen.
Said teacher has received his order on a tray and turns around and is sucker punched (the why is irrelevant). Instructor quickly recovers and moves out of harms way as best he can. He's a big guy and first punch wasn't the one stop blow the 'uke' thought it would be. Food is now on the floor.

Instructor is unhappy and prepped for the follow-up attack.
Attack comes in the form of a full punch to the face...gamenuchi???

Instructor performs Gyaku Game Ate. Perform is perhaps too light a word. Execute might be better. Execute implies serious intent.
For those unfamiliar with the technique it involves a blinding fast knife hand strike to the eyes & subsequent neck manipulation while 'uke's momentum carries him forward.

To the best of my knowledge the eye contact never occurred. 'Uke' perceived the intent of the knife hand and reflexively jerked backwards.

Consequence from this 'no touch throw' was devastating. As my instructor drove away from the incident the Dairy Queen patrons were still gathered in a circle over an unconscious 'uke'.

Remember, uke was non-compliant and not an aikidoka. When asked, my instructor replied that he never knew what technique he intended to do (i.e. non rehearsed) but that he was fully committed to do something. He was totally committed to action; which kind was irrelevant to him. That level of intent was easily perceived by 'uke' once put into action.

No touch throw outside an Aikido dojo!!!!
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