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Old 01-16-2006, 03:33 AM   #151
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
I do not believe they can be taught ie and now class let me demonstrate this secret "no touch" technique...
Hi Edwin, agreed, but the skill needed to be able to execute it has to be learned, and how does that skill come about, but from someone teaching you, and you practicing (maybe for years) the technique?
Quote:
no touch happens as a result of properly executed techniques ie blending timing evasion etc...
Absolutely
Quote:
trained poodle aikido happens when someone IS faking either nage or uke or both...
I agree with you here as well, fake aikido is no aikido, neither of us wants to be part of this. However teaching and practice involves many different aspects, and it is unreasonable to expect students to practice in a life or death state, so there is always a level of 'not-real-ness' going on.
Quote:
anyone offended by anything written on an open public forum should consider why they are so easily manipulated by the words of a complete stranger...
Point taken, I realised afterwards, that I probably shouldn't have replied to such a crass analogy, however, I can always accept that non aikido folk often look on from the outside, and are sceptical of the 'reality' of what is happening when they see aikido. I'm just a bit surprised when that same level of comment ( here I refer to the pavlov's dog analogy )is displayed by someone from within the practicing community, given that so much information on the subject had already been posted, and moving images of the founder are so freely available.

I'll get back in my box

regards, Mark
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Old 01-16-2006, 12:04 PM   #152
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:

No one is implying you can just pick any person up and throw them without touching them.
Why not? If the "no touch throw" works on touch and highly "skilled" aikidoda, why doesn't it work on a layman?
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Old 01-16-2006, 12:45 PM   #153
wendyrowe
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Why not? If the "no touch throw" works on touch and highly "skilled" aikidoda, why doesn't it work on a layman?
I (still) think it depends on which type of "no touch throw" you're talking about. If it's the kind where someone takes ukemi rather than getting a fist in the eye or swordhand to the throat or somesuch, that person has to believe in the danger or he won't take the ukemi. So that means it's got to be a skilled aikidoka, someone with some athletic ability/sense who can see the danger, or a total chicken who's going to duck as soon as he seems anything coming (the latter I listed for the sake of completeness, not because I think there are lots of them or that they should "count" when you're looking for real no-touch throws). It only works if the attacks are committed, but I *THINK* it would victimize aikidoka and non-aikidoka alike since it's the committed coming-at-each-other that's a prerequisite, not foreknowledge of the arriving technique.

But if it's my favorite kind, the rarely encountered one you have to experience to believe in since otherwise you'll think it's a "trained poodle" or a klutzy student, is when you adjust your balance to be in position for the attack that is heading towards you like a speeding locomotive, but it suddenly veers off and just isn't there and you are unable to compensate fast enough to keep from falling down -- say, an irimi nage heading your way too fast to escape so you plan to intercept and stick yourself to him and counter, but the entering arm abruptly veers over your head and you fall over because you'd set yourself in a position that would keep you stable with your centers joined...but they're not.
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Old 01-16-2006, 02:12 PM   #154
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
I (still) think it depends on which type of "no touch throw" you're talking about. If it's the kind where someone takes ukemi rather than getting a fist in the eye or swordhand to the throat or somesuch, that person has to believe in the danger or he won't take the ukemi. So that means it's got to be a skilled aikidoka, someone with some athletic ability/sense who can see the danger, or a total chicken who's going to duck as soon as he seems anything coming (the latter I listed for the sake of completeness, not because I think there are lots of them or that they should "count" when you're looking for real no-touch throws). It only works if the attacks are committed, but I *THINK* it would victimize aikidoka and non-aikidoka alike since it's the committed coming-at-each-other that's a prerequisite, not foreknowledge of the arriving technique.

But if it's my favorite kind, the rarely encountered one you have to experience to believe in since otherwise you'll think it's a "trained poodle" or a klutzy student, is when you adjust your balance to be in position for the attack that is heading towards you like a speeding locomotive, but it suddenly veers off and just isn't there and you are unable to compensate fast enough to keep from falling down -- say, an irimi nage heading your way too fast to escape so you plan to intercept and stick yourself to him and counter, but the entering arm abruptly veers over your head and you fall over because you'd set yourself in a position that would keep you stable with your centers joined...but they're not.
1. fall down to avoid damage.

2. loose your own balance and fall.

Do I get it right?
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Old 01-16-2006, 02:28 PM   #155
wendyrowe
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
1. fall down to avoid damage.

2. loose your own balance and fall.

Do I get it right?
Yeah -- but your summary sounds like it's all about

1. Wimp!
2. Klutz!

and there's more to it than that.
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Old 01-16-2006, 03:59 PM   #156
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Why not? If the "no touch throw" works on touch and highly "skilled" aikidoda, why doesn't it work on a layman?
Simple, because what most of us are talking and agreeing about here is something that happens in aikido with trained individuals, and has been explained to you in more than one post. If a layman were to attack with real commitment and the nage were to perform his defence with the sort of power that causes a trained aikidoka to ukemi out of without 'touch', the layman would sustain damage to some degree, simple, simple and simple again. That's why, no magic just plain simple ordinary mechanics - get out of the way - ok don't get out of the way not ok.
If you still feel that getting out of the way of a possible leathal strike is for wimps and poodles, then so be it, I will bow out of this discussion and go and practice with my fellow dogs, we enjoy ourselves doing what we do, thanks.
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Old 01-16-2006, 10:43 PM   #157
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Simple,

:
:
the layman would sustain damage to some degree, simple, simple and simple again. That's why, no magic just plain simple ordinary mechanics - get out of the way - ok don't get out of the way not ok.
If you still feel that getting out of the way of a possible leathal strike
"leathal strike"? You scared me. I'd better run and hide.

If high level of aikido is simple mechanics and "leathal" strike, what happened to the harmony I've been hearing about in aikido.

I think we should call it quit. With open mind, I wanted to know what's behind the magic "no touch throw". So far, the answers have been dispointing.

You won.No more "leathal" strikes, OK?
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:24 PM   #158
Edwin Neal
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Re: No Touch Throws

If my actions cause you to "wimp out" and fall down... no touch throw...
If my actions cause you to "klutz out" and fall down... no touch throw...

if you need it explained in still simpler terms... i'll try but how much simpler can it get...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-16-2006, 11:26 PM   #159
Edwin Neal
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Re: No Touch Throws

oh and for the record ... no touch throws USUALLY work better on an untrained person...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-16-2006, 11:30 PM   #160
PeterR
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I think we should call it quit. With open mind, I wanted to know what's behind the magic "no touch throw". So far, the answers have been dispointing.
So you are looking for magic where there is none. No wonder you are disappointed.

I've heard of teachers that demonstrate "choreographed" no-touch throws but I've never seen them. Perhaps an urban legend.

A few times I've lost my balance quite spectacularily avoiding a strike that came out of no where. They occured in punch kick arts that I did as well as Aikido and not once was it planned (most were during sparing). I've even managed to pull off a couple myself under similar circumstance to everyone's amusement. But as Dan points out why would anyone put themselves in a position where they would give up their balance. A boxer will tell you its all in the set-up. You need to get you opponent moving in a way that you can take advantage of.

The harmony you seek is the relationship between the two opponents - each reacting to each other - the dominant individual reacting less and if he is really good controlling the weaker's reactions.

Don't believe in potentially lethal strikes? Hmmm - open up an anatomy book sometime. They are even easier to comprehend than no touch throws.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:28 AM   #161
Ron Tisdale
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Re: No Touch Throws

Easier to comprehend, but extremely hard to do. The human body can take an amazing amount of punishment before quitting. I've seen video of backyard wrestling where someone lifted a person up in the air, turned them over and slammed them down on concrete on their head. The slammee simply shook himself, got up, and kept fighting. I thought sure from what I saw that his neck would be broken.

Sometimes 'lethal' just don't happen. Doesn't mean it can't or won't some other times.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-17-2006, 08:54 AM   #162
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
If my actions cause you to "wimp out" and fall down... no touch throw...
If my actions cause you to "klutz out" and fall down... no touch throw...

if you need it explained in still simpler terms... i'll try but how much simpler can it get...
If i wave a gun at you, and say "get down to the floor", you fall to ground... no touch throw.

Is that simple?
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Old 01-17-2006, 09:44 AM   #163
Edwin Neal
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Re: No Touch Throws

No because you are using a gun not aikido (or some other MA)
now i think you're just being stupid and argumentative...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-17-2006, 09:55 AM   #164
wendyrowe
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
If i wave a gun at you, and say "get down to the floor", you fall to ground... no touch throw.

Is that simple?
The inference from your example is that a no touch throw is psychology; but as some of us here who have experienced them have been saying, for one type of no touch throw at least (most recently described by Peter Rehse), it's physics not psychology.
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:58 AM   #165
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
The inference from your example is that a no touch throw is psychology; but as some of us here who have experienced them have been saying, for one type of no touch throw at least (most recently described by Peter Rehse), it's physics not psychology.
That's where I get confused. "no touch throw is physical". It voids any physics law that I know of.

Let's drop the discussion. I don't see any more value to continue since no new arguement being presented.
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Old 01-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #166
Bronson
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
It voids any physics law that I know of.
I'm no student of physics but isn't there one that says something like: "a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force"?

This would describe one of the best no-touch throws I've seen. It was during a major league baseball game. The pitcher hit the batter with the ball the batter rushed the pitcher and tried to punch him in the head. Just when the punch should have connected the pitcher ducked and the batter went tumbling down the back of the pitcher's mound.

Bronson

Last edited by Bronson : 01-17-2006 at 01:50 PM.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-17-2006, 02:24 PM   #167
roosvelt
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
I'm no student of physics but isn't there one that says something like: "a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force"?

This would describe one of the best no-touch throws I've seen. It was during a major league baseball game. The pitcher hit the batter with the ball the batter rushed the pitcher and tried to punch him in the head. Just when the punch should have connected the pitcher ducked and the batter went tumbling down the back of the pitcher's mound.

Bronson
1. fall down to avoid damage.

2. loose your own balance and fall.

2 in this case. end of discussion.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:26 PM   #168
purplesaxark
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Steven - I suggest you don't know good Judo.
Well, I have worked out in Judo with an Olympic gold medalist.
No I don't study Judo but I have studies a lot about it and had some classes. It isn't Aikido. Sorry. Its push when pulled, pull when pushed. Aikido is turn when pushed, enter when pulled. We do things in harmony. Like pins and mat holds are in harmony with the body. Judo does not.
So I am not completely ignorant of Judo. Perhaps you have not studied Aikido very long.
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:52 PM   #169
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

This reminds me of something funny that happened to me one day when I had less than a year of training. It was randori day. As a novice, I only had one opponent. So at one point, Sempai attacked, and I did what Sensei always tells us not to do: I expected a particular technique, a shomen, and I started to counter with irimi nage. As I was raising my hand, I realized that the attack was not a shomen at all. It was a front kick. Surprised, I slightly changed my hand's trajectory, and Sempai suddenly saw it coming right at his face. Or, more exactly, he's face was coming straight at my open hand. So he had a reflex: he jerked his head backward, while his hips were still pushing forward into the kick. Well, guess what happened? Sempai fell without my ever touching him.
Of course, there is such a thing as the no touch throw!
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:02 PM   #170
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: No Touch Throws

no touch throws or not, if you have been conditioned to throw yourself on the ground as a reaction to anything coming towards you before contact has been made, then you are really practicing a dangerous habit
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:22 AM   #171
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
no touch throws or not, if you have been conditioned to throw yourself on the ground as a reaction to anything coming towards you before contact has been made, then you are really practicing a dangerous habit
It seems in the 5 years that this thread has been hibernating, that opinions about 'no touch throws' have remained static.

I guess they are either seen as false, fake, stupid or dangerous, be the nay sayers. Or they are seen as an integral part of serious aikido practice.

What I would suggest to those who don't 'believe' in them is to watch a number of vids on Ueshiba, see them happening then ask the question, why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3...eature=related

If they were good enough for Ueshiba and his uke's, then they are good enough for me.

It seems to me that there may be aikido students out there whose teachers have not attained a high enough personal level ofnaikido to be able to reproduce some of what Ueshiba was showing. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe their own teachers either didn't have it themselves or they did and they were in effective in teaching it. It seems from the debates about IS/IP/aiki, that there is a fair degree of lack out there in the wide world of aikido.

No touch throws are not the be all and end all of aikido, just an aspect of practice that is manifested by power, timing, intent, connection, following, leading, and a desire to continue through to a natural conclusion and be able to get up and attack again.

If you've never been on the end of one, shame, they are great to experience, I always get back up on my feet with a smile on my face.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:37 AM   #172
Randall Lim
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote: View Post
"leathal strike"? You scared me. I'd better run and hide.

If high level of aikido is simple mechanics and "leathal" strike, what happened to the harmony I've been hearing about in aikido.

I think we should call it quit. With open mind, I wanted to know what's behind the magic "no touch throw". So far, the answers have been dispointing.

You won.No more "leathal" strikes, OK?
I suppose a "no-touch throw" is possible when Uke is fully committed in his attack, and Nage lures & leads him to the point when whenever contact is about to be made, Uke's balance is broken.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:50 AM   #173
mathewjgano
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

While there were definately some additional dynamics at play when O Sensei did them, I first learned about no-touch throws as a kid when I learned that even the smallest dude (myself) could scare someone into over-reacting, usually by threatening the eyes.
I can see how if we view going to the ground quickly as a bad thing we might view no-touch-like movements as always being weak, but I think it has its place in practical practice, particularly when we consider the use of swords where being touched means being cut. Dropping/self-throwing probably shouldn't be the first choice, but it shouldn't be completely removed from the list of possibilities either.
Also, for whatever it's worth, Steven, the person you're replying to has a pretty darn good Aikido pedigree as far as I can tell. Perhaps you guys were talking past each other those few years ago, but having trained with him, I tend to regard anything he says as pretty darn well-informed.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-06-2011 at 10:54 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:27 PM   #174
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
I suppose a "no-touch throw" is possible when Uke is fully committed in his attack, and Nage lures & leads him to the point when whenever contact is about to be made, Uke's balance is broken.
Hi Randall,

Uke does need to be fully committed in his attack. Uke is lead by nage, the point where I differ from you description is that balance is not necessarily broken. I think it is possible to uke through a complete exercise without losing balance. I think it is possible to roll out forwards or backwards without having 'broken' anything. If and only if, the nage applies all of the principles inherent in aikido, the uke follows through the attack and is lead to a roll or avoiding manoeuver (and a possible atemi) simply to maintain co-ordination

That's my take on it anyway.

regards,

Mark

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Old 02-06-2011, 02:51 PM   #175
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
What I would suggest to those who don't 'believe' in them is to watch a number of vids on Ueshiba, see them happening then ask the question, why?
From Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2009 June; 6(2): 175–183.

Philosophy, Psychology, Physics and Practice of Ki

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