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Old 04-24-2001, 12:13 PM   #26
Karl Kuhn
Dojo: New City YMCA/Chicago Shodokan
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Well, there seems to be a good deal to address here. Late me start by saying that I am concerned about the following:

Ubaldo wrote: " Karl Kuhn said that "I had no experience". " Now, that is a direct quote attributed to me that is a complete fabrication and it troubles me.

I belive you were referring to the following quote that appeared earlier in the thread:
Original Quote:
Ubaldo wote "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed."
I wrote "Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not."

The spirit of my reply may very well have been misinterpreted and for that I apologize. By "experienced" I meant spent some time with and participated in. You have said that you attended an event or two and while you are free to draw conclusions, I still think it is important to understand that many of us do not consider that enough of the picture to make a fair assesment. Again, no where did I say "you had no experience".

The central point in my concern about "experiencing" the method is this: Randori is central to Tomiki's ideas on Aikido education. It is not a thing thrown on to hype up kids or reward "competative" behavior. It is at the core of the educational model. Tomiki was quite clear in this, Kata and Randori work together to create a students aikido. The events that are held are celebrations of Aikido that allow participants an opportunity to better their Aikido. To suggest anything else betrays a lack of understanding or an agenda.

Frankly, I don't have to "prove" anything to you but I would be happy attempt to answer the questions to posted.

a) prove to me that Shodokan's competitions do not usually present bad techniques
Easy. I'll meet you in Osaka in October for the big shindig and you can see for yourself :^) Seriously though, the Embu Kata portion of the competitions presents lovely technique. The techniques in randori are seldom as "pretty" but you can certainly tell when they are successful. The nature of randori is such that the successful techniques have beauty all their own, but it is not as easy to "see" for most people.

b) show me numbers demonstrating the increase of championships and tournaments
Why are you so concerned with the numbers of participants? I have read with great interest your posts on a number forums these past couple of years and respect your passion for Aikido and envy your time to research and post as you have ;^) Osaka will be the biggest yet, but VA last summer could have been better attended.I'm not sure what you are looking for here.

c) prove to me that Toshu Randori wasn't tried and abandoned
This is very interesting in that the question of Toshu and it's inclusion has been the subject of some questions recently- only on the internet and mostly by people that have not attended an event. There is a very simple answer-it was never abandoned. What happened in the US is that the host city has historically has had a good deal of say as to what the event looked like and Toshu was often not included. I believe that this was done both to provide enough time for the seminar days, the Embu Kata and the Tanto Randori and also, because there was not the same level of familiarity with it. It is important to remember that Shodokan Aikido is quite young and it's precense in the US even younger and we are playing a bit of catch up, if you will. This is important to keep in mind if one is trying to judge the method by viewing an event in any given region, not everyone is getting right. Plus, Tanto Randori is easier to judge, play and more fun, IMO.

Also, you wrote:
"But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold."

Sorry, this is an unfortunate distortion. Again, Tomiki was very clear about his educational method and this is celebrated worldwide in seminars/competitions. To suggest otherwise is suspect, imo.

Now, there are groups and individuals that have found value in Tomiki's work and use it to some degree in their practice. That's great, that's what it is there for. The two groups you mentioned are not internationally based organizations (they seem to be primarily located in the American south)and I have not had the pleasure of working with them. I have heard great things about the Jiyushinkai from a friend/ senior instructor, however.

I hope this helps,

Karl

BTW, turned 33 last week and feeling every bit the spring chicken, thank you very much:^}










Karl Kuhn
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Old 04-24-2001, 02:58 PM   #27
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Smile KAMI IN THE FIRE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
I am concerned about the following:

Ubaldo wrote: " Karl Kuhn said that "I had no experience". " Now, that is a direct quote attributed to me that is a complete fabrication and it troubles me.

KAMI : Heavy words...You begin by saying that I "fabricate" a quote of yours. What that would make of me? Let's see : I said you accused me of "having no experience". You protest and say that your exact words were :
"I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something THEY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED". Pray, do tell me, if I have not experienced something isn't the same as saying I have no experience about something?

The spirit of my reply may very well have been misinterpreted and for that I apologize. By "experienced" I meant spent some time with and participated in. You have said that you attended an event or two and while you are free to draw conclusions, I still think it is important to understand that many of us do not consider that enough of the picture to make a fair assesment. Again, no where did I say "you had no experience".

KAMI : Now, you make clear what you wanted to say. Of course, now I can understand what you intended to say. But believe me, You didn't say that in your earlier post. Now I think I understand it : "Many of you" do not accept opinions from people, unless they have large experience". I say the same I told before to Peter : This is an open Forum, not a meeting point for experts. Everybody, I think, is free to present his opinions and the more experienced are free to correct anything wrong. By the way, I present my opinion WHY I was against competition in Aikido, not just in Tomiki style. It should be answered in this way, not as a defense against a supposed attack on Shodokan.

Randori is central to Tomiki's ideas on Aikido education. It is not a thing thrown on to hype up kids or reward "competative" behavior. It is at the core of the educational model. Tomiki was quite clear in this, Kata and Randori work together to create a students aikido. The events that are held are celebrations of Aikido that allow participants an opportunity to better their Aikido. To suggest anything else betrays a lack of understanding or an agenda.

KAMI : It's incredible as you read what you wish! Read again my posts, since you wish to criticize them. Tomiki Sensei was a fantastic master, very intelligent and much influenced by Kano Jigoro Sensei. He created competition in Aikido in the same mold as his master (Kano Sensei) promoted competition in Judo. There are "no lack of understanding or agenda". Anyway, remember that Kano Sensei, Ueshiba Sensei, Tomiki Sensei and many others are respected masters, not Gods. They're subject to mistakes and failures as we all are. The introduction of competition in martial arts (in modern times) by Kano Sensei and Tomiki Sensei MIGHT be a mistake.

Frankly, I don't have to "prove" anything to you but

KAMI : Sorry, but I said "prove" not because of any arrogance but for the constant attacks I was suffering based only on opinions. They weren't answers, but just discussion without context.

I would be happy attempt to answer the questions to posted.
a) prove to me that Shodokan's competitions do not usually present bad techniques
Easy. I'll meet you in Osaka in October for the big shindig and you can see for yourself :^) Seriously though, the Embu Kata portion of the competitions presents lovely technique. The techniques in randori are seldom as "pretty" but you can certainly tell when they are successful.

KAMI : As I said...You agree with the thing I proposed that "the techniques in Randori are not pretty". Observe that I made no mention of Kata.

b) show me numbers demonstrating the increase of championships and tournaments
Why are you so concerned with the numbers of participants?

KAMI : Why are you so concerned about disagreeing with me? Since you disagree so much, the only way to end this discussion is to have the most common thing in the world : data on competition. what has been the progress, the number of participants, etc...

I have read with great interest your posts on a number forums these past couple of years and respect your passion for Aikido and envy your time to research and post as you have ;^)

KAMI : There's a reason for that : I'm an invalid and I can no longer practice as I liked. So I have lots of time to train my mind, if not my body. Please, allow me that!

I'm not sure what you are looking for here.

KAMI : I "fabricate" quotes; I talk about "something I have no experience in"(another fabricated quote...); I'm looking for some "hidden and devious" thing...My God, in your opinion, I'm something like an "Evil Genius"...(

c) prove to me that Toshu Randori wasn't tried and abandoned
This is very interesting in that the question of Toshu and it's inclusion has been the subject of some questions recently- only on the internet and mostly by people that have not attended an event. There is a very simple answer-it was never abandoned. What happened in the US is that the host city has historically has had a good deal of say as to what the event looked like and Toshu was often not included. Plus, Tanto Randori is easier to judge, play and more fun, IMO.

KAMI : Oh, Well...Then I might have to rephrase it : It has been abandoned in many parts, in favor of Tanto Randori. But, in a certain way, you agreed with me that Toshu Randori isn't much seen around...

Also, you wrote:
"But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold."

Sorry, this is an unfortunate distortion. To suggest otherwise is suspect, imo.

KAMI : Thank you, again. Now, I'm "suspect"...As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...


I hope this helps,
Karl

KAMI : Believe, me, it has!

BTW, turned 33 last week and feeling every bit the spring chicken, thank you very much:^}

KAMI : Turning 60 and feeling very bad but definitely NOT giving up!
Best
The Suspect










"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-24-2001, 03:34 PM   #28
Jim23
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KAMI : There's a reason for that : I'm an invalid and I can no longer practice as I liked. So I have lots of time to train my mind, if not my body. Please, allow me that!


Kami,

Forgive me for asking, but was the cause of your injury aikido related?

If you would prefer not to answer this, I understand.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-24-2001, 05:58 PM   #29
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
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THE SUSPECT'S HEALTH

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
Kami,
Forgive me for asking, but was the cause of your injury aikido related?
If you would prefer not to answer this, I understand.
Jim23
KAMI : Hello, Jim! No problem in answering.
No, my health problems(too long to list here, but basically a severe cardiopaty and a few other ins and outs)are not due to martial arts practice. Quite on the contrary, I have only good memories of my MA practice except for politics. I guess it was my karma...
The Suspect

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-24-2001, 10:29 PM   #30
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
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I think a olimpic sport as compition for Aikido would definatly hurt Aikido an here are some reasons why.

1. how many times do you see people walk in a dojo stay for 3min at the most and pronoucnce it fake. you see if it was compition spectarors may ( I am not saying they will but in my expirences). they may think taht it was set and not worthy.

2. IF Tomok Aikido is gonna do olimpics they will probably think all Aikido is like that and 90% of the population proably dosent know there are 101 diff expressions of Aikido ( hint I donno how many there are but heheh) and they might think all aikido is Tomok.

3. People may start Aikido but for the wrong reasons. meaning not for harmony ( which is why we get engergy from training is becasue we are in harmony with the engergy of the universe) but for our egos sake and start to spoil the dojo.

4. I think it could discrourage those that are old and weak or are disabled or have a helath condition and it might prevent them from wanting to train or start becaause they may see only the Atheleticaly built Aikidoka ( I hope not but hey it is and Atheletic event.)

my 2 cents worth..

By the way Jim where are u from??

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 04-25-2001, 05:51 AM   #31
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
I think a olimpic sport as compition for Aikido would definatly hurt Aikido an here are some reasons why.

1. how many times do you see people walk in a dojo stay for 3min at the most and pronoucnce it fake. you see if it was compition spectarors may ( I am not saying they will but in my expirences). they may think taht it was set and not worthy.

2. IF Tomok Aikido is gonna do olimpics they will probably think all Aikido is like that and 90% of the population proably dosent know there are 101 diff expressions of Aikido ( hint I donno how many there are but heheh) and they might think all aikido is Tomok.

3. People may start Aikido but for the wrong reasons. meaning not for harmony ( which is why we get engergy from training is becasue we are in harmony with the engergy of the universe) but for our egos sake and start to spoil the dojo.

4. I think it could discrourage those that are old and weak or are disabled or have a helath condition and it might prevent them from wanting to train or start becaause they may see only the Atheleticaly built Aikidoka ( I hope not but hey it is and Atheletic event.)

my 2 cents worth..

By the way Jim where are u from??


Please permit me to make some points about this intersting argument.

1. There is no way a technique could be seen as 'set' in competition because of the nature of randori.

2. The fact that competition attracts public interest cannot be helped. There should however be some effort to distinguish competetive and non-competetive aikido styles.

3. The problem of egos in my experience is very minimal in tomiki aikido. Having experienced competition in many different martial arts, I am suprised by the lack of ego in aikido competition.
There has never been an aikido champion at international level who was not also equally skilled at embu (kata). As we all know kata takes a great deal of work and patience and tends to discourage the egotistical.

4. Of course those who are less physically able for health reasons may find competition success more of a struggle, but that does not mean competition does not have something to offer them. Remember that Randori was always intented a learning tool.
I would also like to mention that the individual who won the US world championships had a severe health condition which is kept at bay by continued aikido (and randori) practise.



Last edited by Sam : 04-25-2001 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 04-25-2001, 06:06 AM   #32
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sam


Whoops! I meant to say There has never been an aikido champion at international level who was NOT also equally skilled at embu (kata).
You could have edited your first post again. There's a button for that somewhere.
andrew
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:06 AM   #33
Karl Kuhn
Dojo: New City YMCA/Chicago Shodokan
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Ubaldo (I hope you do not mind me addressing you in this way, one never knows in this ether),

I had not intended my post as an attack or to upset you, if you have taken offense at some of my comments, I hope you will accept my apology, for that was not the spirit in which they were offered.

That being said.......
You wrote "You begin by saying that I "fabricate" a quote of yours."
That is exactly what you did. You put words in quotation marks next to my name that I did not say or write. It could not be clearer. I can understand you mistaking my plea for people to not hasten to judge something to rashly. I remain a little curious why you excersice such little regard for the rules of language in making vocal your concern. This is not meant as any judgement towards you, please understand.

You said "Many of you" do not accept opinions from people, unless they have large experience".

I like to think that is not the case, for either Peter or myself. Personally, I have been, in my own small way, been trying to point to the larger context that aikido randori/embu kata events exist in within Shodokan Aikido. From my own experience I know that a casual glance does not fill the eye with enough to see what is happening. I am not saying that you do not know anything or that your experiences are without value, far from it. I am simply suggesting that there is more to it. Take someone whose only experience with painting is representational, barouque say, and plop them in front of color field painting by a minimalist- would they see it as a painting? By what rule swould they judge it? Or someone who has only listened to piano concertos is sat with a recording Ornette Colemans double quartet free-jazz freak out- would they hear it as music?

"remember that Kano Sensei, Ueshiba Sensei, Tomiki Sensei and many others are respected masters, not Gods."
Of course. And mistakes they made I'm sure. From my experience their work in the preservation of randori is not a mistake. It is a gift.

KAMI : "...You agree with the thing I proposed that "the techniques in Randori are not pretty".
No, I don't agree. They have a beauty all there own, even when they look like kata. That's ok though, isn't it? Surely we do not have to agree on standards of beauty to have a dialouge?

KAMI : Why are you so concerned about disagreeing with me? Since you disagree so much, the only way to end this discussion is to have the most common thing in the world : data on competition. what has been the progress, the number of participants, etc..."

I'm not concerned with disagreeing with you, as I think we have more in common than not. I am concerned that communications as reflect my experience do just that. What would you do with such data? What point would it prove?

KAMI : Thank you, again. Now, I'm "suspect"...

Not you, your comment. I trust you see the difference. You said "that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold" and that is patently not true.

KAMI : As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...

I am not sure what you want here, my friend. Why should "the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words" when it's not the point. The growth of Shodokan Aikido would be great! It will grow but because of the value of it's method and the quality it's teachers, nothing more nothing less.

I hope that you see my reply here in the spirit it was intended, one of good will and understanding.

Karl







Karl Kuhn
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Old 04-27-2001, 04:37 AM   #34
Matt Banks
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Dear Tomiki guys

Hello,

I just wanted say a few words, and I want to know if you agree with them. We must always remember that this is just a discussion forum. For all people know 80% of the people on the forum may have hardly trained in aikido (i doubt it). Dont ever let, persona's you view on a computer screen effect your view of aikido for yourself. I dont train in tomiki aikido, i train in a Yoshinkan afiliation, and people I dont know on this forum, have said they dont agree with certain methods of our aikido training, e.g. live knife jiuwaza and will power training etc, but I dont let it affect the way I see and love aikido. This forum is a great resource (well done jun) but it is not the be all and end all of the aikido population. Many people on the forum come out with statements, which to some seem ridiculous (I know I do) so dont listen to them.

In my opinion the people who do know what their talking about, are not typing on a key board their in the dojo training.

Saying that you do meet people on the forum who have common views on aikido and this leads to great discussions, and both participants learn lots and dont argue. I think its a good idea Jun's brought in this ignore gadjet....nice one.

I have a dreeeeaaaaam when an aikidoka, will be judged...not on his style or affiliation...but byyyyyyyy the content of his character.

Martin Luther King- sort of



Matt Banks


''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:01 AM   #35
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Wink THE BATTLE OF OPINIONS...

Quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
Ubaldo (I hope you do not mind me addressing you in this way, one never knows in this ether),

KAMI : You might call me CYBER SHIHAN but...Oh, well! Ubaldo will do quite nicely...

I had not intended my post as an attack or to upset you, if you have taken offense at some of my comments, I hope you will accept my apology, for that was not the spirit in which they were offered.

KAMI : No offense taken. After all this is a discussion list.

QUOTES : Kami : "...You agree with the thing I proposed that "THE TECHNIQUES IN RANDORI ARE NOT PRETTY".
Karl : No, I don't agree. They have a beauty all there own, even when they look like kata. That's ok though, isn't it? Surely we do not have to agree on standards of beauty to have a dialouge?

KAMI : Well, I tried to put a quote, as correct as possible, from something YOU said. It seems I was wrong again...


QUOTES : Kami : As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...
Karl : I am not sure what you want here, my friend. Why should "the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words" when it's not the point. The growth of Shodokan Aikido would be great! It will grow but because of the value of it's method and the quality it's teachers, nothing more nothing less.

KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.

I hope that you see my reply here in the spirit it was intended, one of good will and understanding.
Karl

KAMI : Of course, Karl! We have debated some things. We're not on a Holy War!
Best








Last edited by Kami : 04-27-2001 at 05:05 AM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-27-2001, 07:27 AM   #36
Moomin
Dojo: Bradford
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...getting back on thread...

I did a little research and couldn't find out if aikido is to be demonstrated at the 2008 Olympics. However, if it is there's a concensus on this forum that Tomiki would be the style of choice. How likely is this? From what I'd read Ki aikido has is better tailored to Olympic competition and in part was designed that way. Participants would be judged for instance on the grace of their taigi (?) rather than who could perform the most effective technique. I would stress that this is something I know next to nothing about (I'm aikikai myself). I would appeciate any more info.

As I asked earlier, do you think competition in one style would effect another style? I know it might encourage people to turn up to a other aikido dojo but there have been a few who have come to our dojo after watching Segal movies for example and haven't stayed, or harmed our aikido. And the more people turn up, the larger potentially our club could be. Not really a bad thing.

(I was going to appologise for the long post, but it's not really that long, is it...)

Greg
The tiger who hunts for men may be plump,
But he still pounces
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Old 04-27-2001, 07:51 AM   #37
PeterR
 
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Greg;

Tomiki style competion also contains Embu which is basically what taigi is. Embu and randori are always part of the competion and if they moved to the Olympics I am sure it would continue to be so.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-27-2001, 07:00 PM   #38
Karl Kuhn
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huh?

Ubaldo,

I have no idea what you are on about....

Karl

KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.




Karl Kuhn
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Old 04-27-2001, 10:11 PM   #39
Karl Kuhn
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I really have no idea what you are on about.


KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.

Karl Kuhn
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Old 04-28-2001, 01:30 AM   #40
jimvance
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methinks thou dost protest too much...

Hi everyone!

Isn't it funny how combative people get when they are trying to discuss competition versus cooperation? And all the while Rodney King stands in the background lamenting

"Can't we all just get along?"

so we try to be nice to one another, but that monster deep down in the belly... boy is it ever persuasive.

Appreciate your differences. So much randori in this forum. Who needs the Olympics, there is enough going on right here....

Jim Vance

PS. I am not complaining by the way. Half the time I come here to see a fight and end up reading Aikido posts. The other half is spent wondering whether anyone reads what I post.
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Old 04-28-2001, 09:24 AM   #41
Chuck Clark
 
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I read your post Jim.

Some of us will get along and some won't. It's the way of things.


Chuck Clark
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Old 04-28-2001, 05:28 PM   #42
Karl Kuhn
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Sorry for the double post, some kind of cache error or something.

I read your post Jim, I guess I missed the fight...........

Karl

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Old 04-28-2001, 05:51 PM   #43
PeterR
 
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Ubaldo;

Obtaining numbers for events past present and future is no easy task. Honbu organizes the big events in Japan but the national and non-Japanese International events are organized by other groups. Personally I am not going to contact Honbu and ask for what information they may have primarily since I would have to give a reason beyond I would like to know. I ask quite a bit from these people and I would like to limit the number of e-mails they get from someone as low on the totem pole as I am. There are people there already preparing for my trip. Perhaps while I am in Japan I can ask for the information but as Karl pointed out it would serve no purpose. It wouldn't convince you to the value of competion in AIkido.

Secondly, why do you demand data. It should be enough that either Karl or I say it is the case. If we are dishonest we could feed you fake data and you wouldn't be the wiser. There are people who were at both Imabari, Australia and previous international events - if they say the numbers of people are increasing than it is - whether it is 10, 15 or 50% is immaterial. If they are confident enough to book an entire stadium for the big event in Osaka this October, that should say enough.

No one ever asked you to back up the statement that toshu randori never caught on with hard facts and from my perspective it is enough that those who experienced the events say differently. This is a casual forum - not a court of law.





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Old 04-29-2001, 06:03 AM   #44
Kami
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AIKIDO COMPETITION


Hello, Peter!

I omitted opinions and I asked for answers. If you think those are immaterial things that serve no purpose, as Karl pointed out, so be it. As I said before to Karl, in what it concerns us, I bowed out and this thread, for me, is finished. I'm tired of being misunderstood and, at least, in the case of Karl, called many things(manipulator of quotes; hidden intentions; no conditions to talk about some things...). I sincerely feel there is too much sensibility here and some raw skin. If we can't have a cool debate, it's better to close this thread. I have no need to compete for my opinions or to win a debate. That would be an useless competition, in my opinion.
By the way, data is available on a great number of sports and no one asks about people's "intentions" in asking for them. I find it strange they aren't easily available in Shodokan Aikido, at least for their members. You get numbers in soccer, basketball, volleyball, judo, etc...From your words, it seems only in Tomiki Aikido those data are difficult to obtain. If that's the case, from what I gathered from your post, then this thread is finished and at the present stage, we'b better give it up.
Best regards

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Ubaldo;

Perhaps while I am in Japan I can ask for the information but as Karl pointed out it would serve no purpose. It wouldn't convince you to the value of competion in AIkido.

Secondly, why do you demand data. It should be enough that either Karl or I say it is the case. If we are dishonest we could feed you fake data and you wouldn't be the wiser.

No one ever asked you to back up the statement that toshu randori never caught on with hard facts and from my perspective it is enough that those who experienced the events say differently. This is a casual forum - not a court of law.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-29-2001, 01:17 PM   #45
PeterR
 
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Re: AIKIDO COMPETITION

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
I find it strange they aren't easily available in Shodokan Aikido, at least for their members. You get numbers in soccer, basketball, volleyball, judo, etc...From your words, it seems only in Tomiki Aikido those data are difficult to obtain.
I just said no one organization keeps track of all these things. I don't think great importance is attached to it and there is no world governing body. I'm sure if you wrote to several organizations and found someone who has done the calculations you might be able to get the information togeather. Your best bet is the British Aikido Association which because of the size of their country and the regularity of their events might be able to give you significant numbers about the growth or decline of shiai. That of course would only apply to that country.

Even in Japan, as I've stated elsewhere, one attends maybe two events a year. College students, because of University events, one maybe two more. Shodokan Aikido is not competion driven - the goal is not the same as soccer, basketball, volleyball or even judo at the international level. Karl, myself and others, who train from within the organization, have tried to explain this to you. Keeping score is not a priority.








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Old 04-29-2001, 02:58 PM   #46
mj
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competition in aikido

Hi, everyone. What about the long term effects of competition in aikido? If aikido goes to the olympics, and is successful... then sponsorship rears it's ugly head. People start going to 'winning' clubs, teachers and (potential) students are dismissive of clubs that are not 'winners'.
Many techniques that are not 'effective' (under competition 'rules') will be dropped from the syllabus. Eventually kata will deteriorate into something for 'weak' people who can't make it in 'real' aikido?
Just a thought.

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Old 04-29-2001, 03:33 PM   #47
PeterR
 
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Re: competition in aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by mj
.
Many techniques that are not 'effective' (under competition 'rules') will be dropped from the syllabus. Eventually kata will deteriorate into something for 'weak' people who can't make it in 'real' aikido?
Just a thought.
Scroll back to Sam's post on April 4th and mine on April 27th on this thread. It all revolves around what those rules are.

Worse case scenerio about the sponsership but a view not totally without merit. Still if you look at Judo there are thousands of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more compeditive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits.


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-30-2001, 04:58 AM   #48
Kami
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Question Re: Re: competition in aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Still if you look at Judo there are thousands of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more compeditive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits.
KAMI : Well, I can't really resist that...Even at the risk of being misunderstood, I'll have to ask :
I know conditions in my country (Brazil). In Brazil, I know of only one organization that practices judo non-competitively and it's mostly ignored by the Judo (competitive) community and almost unknown for the world at large. How's the situation in other countries (USA, France, Italy, Portugal,England...), with the sole exception of the Kano Society? Does anyone agrees with Peter's description ("thousand of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more competitive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits...")? Does anyone agrees with that and know these non-competitive clubs? I'm really curious!
Please, take this in honesty! Try not to attack me!

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-30-2001, 08:11 AM   #49
PeterR
 
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I meant in the context of the post I answered. There are clubs which focus on producing national and international champions and there are local clubs where people go to do Judo. Maybe they compete at the local level, maybe they only do randori in the club itself - this is what I meant by less competitive.
Quote:

People start going to 'winning' clubs, teachers and (potential) students are dismissive of clubs that are not 'winners'.


I said
Quote:

co-exist with more competitive clubs

In context it is very clear what I meant - not sure how you got to
Quote:

Does anyone agrees with that and know these non-competitive clubs?


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-30-2001, 10:26 AM   #50
Kami
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I meant in the context of the post I answered. There are clubs which focus on producing national and international champions and there are local clubs where people go to do Judo. Maybe they compete at the local level, maybe they only do randori in the club itself - this is what I meant by less competitive.
KAMI : Thanks for your explanation. All is clear now.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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