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Old 11-01-2006, 04:11 PM   #1
Animal
Location: Geelong victoria
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Australia
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New and wondering about ki

Hi I'm not actually able to practice aikido because there are no "school's" in my area. But I am REALLY interested in ki and how it works and how you are able to bring it into your body. I have only just started trying to feal my ki I followed the instruction on this website http://www.bodynbrain.com/01_magazin...w.asp?SeqNO=16 and was able to feal a sort of "balloon" stopping me from closing my hands together

If anyone is able to tell me more about this I would really appreciate it.
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:21 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Kyle Gervis wrote:
Hi I'm not actually able to practice aikido because there are no "school's" in my area. But I am REALLY interested in ki and how it works and how you are able to bring it into your body. I have only just started trying to feal my ki I followed the instruction on this website http://www.bodynbrain.com/01_magazin...w.asp?SeqNO=16 and was able to feal a sort of "balloon" stopping me from closing my hands together

If anyone is able to tell me more about this I would really appreciate it.
"KI" is too often blather. Don't worry about it. Train hard. If you develope finesse, folks will call that KI.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 11-02-2006, 01:57 AM   #3
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

To me, Ki is just a fancy word for inner strength, confidence, and vitality.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:08 AM   #4
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Here, better yet, http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/KiEx/KiEx.html

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:22 AM   #5
Tom H.
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Re: New and wondering about ki

If you don't have anyone in your area who can show you how to get started, Kam Chuen Lam's Chi Kung: Way of Power does about a good a job as any book can of getting you pointed in the right direction. If you're looking for "oh, that's weird" feelings (e.g. warmth, tingling), you'll find those. You'll also find good body conditioning exercises that will help you out if later you do find an aikido dojo.
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:57 AM   #6
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: New and wondering about ki

I'm going to paraphrase but in his book, the Spirit of Aikido, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, son of the Founder said that the ki in Aikido isn't a ki of power and strength or of hissing and making noises like some portray. He said that the Ki in Aikido is a natural ki that comes after a good hard practice. It results in being more fully human and in a natural and relaxed kind of state.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:14 AM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
If you develope finesse, folks will call that KI.
Thank you for that one.

Yes!

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:30 AM   #8
RampantWolf
Dojo: Cork Aiki Dojo
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Re: New and wondering about ki

I don't actually know anything about either of these dojo's but both of them are in Geelong, I got these from google..

The Geelong Sabaki School
Shintaiikudo Karate & Takemuso Aikido
Sensei Craig Leeson
Email: craigleeson@iprimus.com.au
Phone: 0419 374523 / (03) 5266 1369
Dojo Address:
Fairley Lodge, Sparrow Park,
Hope Street, Geelong West. Victoria. Australia

Daito Ryu Aikido
Mr Ross Burns
PO Box 411
NORTH GEELONG 3215
Phone: (03) 5278 8058

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:26 AM   #9
tedehara
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
"KI" is too often blather. Don't worry about it. Train hard. If you develope finesse, folks will call that KI.
Yes, but it seems that someone with your experience would call finesse simply "finesse". You would call Ki simply .

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 11-02-2006, 03:10 PM   #10
Animal
Location: Geelong victoria
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Talking Re: New and wondering about ki

Thanks for all of that it has been REALLY helpful. Thanks for the addresses! And i think my dad did chi kung and he told me he was able to amazing things! and he told me his instructor was able to smash a cement pillar by focusing all his "energy" into his fore-head and then "just tapping the pole" That's what got me thinking "i wish i could learn that, just to have that much control over my mind"
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Old 11-03-2006, 05:28 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: New and wondering about ki

I have a couple of suggestions.

1) If there is no aikido, find a good judo dojo, train your body hard against resisting partners. You are young so this is the time to work your physical body.

2) There are a LOT of shysters out there...people who say they know, but never really do...watch out for them.

3) If you are really interested in the physical aspects of training the ki, look for the threads on Akuzawa, look for posters like Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, and Rob John. Read them carefully, paying specific attention for how any of them (especially Rob John) describe exercises for developing "body skill". There is a search function on this site that works very well.

4) To develop your mind, you must use it. Study hard in school, think problems through, challenge yourself. It's not easy...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-03-2006, 06:44 AM   #12
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: New and wondering about ki

I personally do not see ki as some kind of mystic force that you develop over time and channel. I just see it as learning the proper way to move to maximize your potential strenght. Just a matter of body mechanics. All of the mental parts of ki training to me have just been ways to get your body to do what you need it to do. (It would be a lot harder to show someone the proper way to hold their arm, then to simply say, slightly bent and imaging a torrent of water rushing out of it.) Once you understand the body mechanics, you no longer have to use the mental extension, you just do it. Judo randori and other alive sparing methods will go a long way to helping you develop what people would call ki, but a good instructor who understands ki (and is not trying to teach you to throw fireballs and mind bullets, but rather how to move in a strong, but supple way) will go a lot further in helping you to get a feel for how to move. The sparing will just solidify it. But without the instruction, you are just going though a long process of trial and error.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:15 AM   #13
tedehara
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I personally do not see ki as some kind of mystic force that you develop over time and channel. I just see it as learning the proper way to move to maximize your potential strenght. Just a matter of body mechanics. All of the mental parts of ki training to me have just been ways to get your body to do what you need it to do. (It would be a lot harder to show someone the proper way to hold their arm, then to simply say, slightly bent and imaging a torrent of water rushing out of it.) Once you understand the body mechanics, you no longer have to use the mental extension, you just do it. Judo randori and other alive sparing methods will go a long way to helping you develop what people would call ki, but a good instructor who understands ki (and is not trying to teach you to throw fireballs and mind bullets, but rather how to move in a strong, but supple way) will go a lot further in helping you to get a feel for how to move. The sparing will just solidify it. But without the instruction, you are just going though a long process of trial and error.
If things were just that simple, I'm sure we'd all be training as good or better than the founder. Unfortunately it's not.

Sometimes people are too quick to dismiss "mystical teachings" into physical mechanics. You have to patiently look at things and constantly test them before arriving at any tentative conclusions.

You will always need a mental extension because you will always be a body united with a mind. The mind leds the body. Even if that mind is the subconscious part of your being. At higher levels, psychology can win or lose the conflict before it begins.

It's interesting that you're using the fire hose image (torrent of rushing water) for unbendable arm. Currently the Ki Society has moved past that and doesn't feel that particular image is worth pursuing. Concepts change and instructions change with it. There is always a better way to think. There is always a better way to perform.

When used selectively, randori and sparring can greatly enhance a person's martial understanding. However it's also important to do these activities safely.

It makes no sense to build your body and mind over the years, only to be stopped by a senseless training accident. Years of repetitive injuries can also take it's toll. Who wants to lose their mobility by having a hip or knee replacement?

Finding a good instructor is close to miraculous. I would hope that all our lives are filled with such instructors.

Don, what you have written are common popular beliefs. What I have written are personal observations. Anyone can take them to heart, or ignore them as they see fit. Most will ignore them.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:56 AM   #14
ian
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
If you don't have anyone in your area who can show you how to get started, Kam Chuen Lam's Chi Kung: Way of Power does about a good a job as any book can of getting you pointed in the right direction. If you're looking for "oh, that's weird" feelings (e.g. warmth, tingling), you'll find those. You'll also find good body conditioning exercises that will help you out if later you do find an aikido dojo.
YES YES YES - excellent author. Aikido really teaches very little about ki/chi. You need to look more into chinese medicine/tai-chi /chi-gung. I actually have a similar book by same bloke which is superb called 'the way of energy'. Simple but profoundly useful:

http://www.amazon.com/Way-Energy-Gai...e=UTF8&s=books

Last edited by ian : 11-03-2006 at 10:59 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:07 AM   #15
Tom H.
Location: Rhode Island
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Re: New and wondering about ki

The Way of Energy is also by Kam Chuen Lam. I have both . The material is directly related to what Dan, Mike, and Rob (the people Ron mentions above) talk about.

[Edit: Hi Ian! You amended your post to include an amazon link while I was writing this one. I've gone over to the dark side and am working with the stuff Akuzawa uses, like shiko (sumo leg lifts), but it's more and more clear how traditional Chinese standing and stuff like Taiji's silk reeling can be used to develop strong internal bodyskills.]

Last edited by Tom H. : 11-03-2006 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:49 PM   #16
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
If things were just that simple, I'm sure we'd all be training as good or better than the founder. Unfortunately it's not.

Sometimes people are too quick to dismiss "mystical teachings" into physical mechanics. You have to patiently look at things and constantly test them before arriving at any tentative conclusions.

You will always need a mental extension because you will always be a body united with a mind. The mind leds the body. Even if that mind is the subconscious part of your being. At higher levels, psychology can win or lose the conflict before it begins.

It's interesting that you're using the fire hose image (torrent of rushing water) for unbendable arm. Currently the Ki Society has moved past that and doesn't feel that particular image is worth pursuing. Concepts change and instructions change with it. There is always a better way to think. There is always a better way to perform.

When used selectively, randori and sparring can greatly enhance a person's martial understanding. However it's also important to do these activities safely.

It makes no sense to build your body and mind over the years, only to be stopped by a senseless training accident. Years of repetitive injuries can also take it's toll. Who wants to lose their mobility by having a hip or knee replacement?

Finding a good instructor is close to miraculous. I would hope that all our lives are filled with such instructors.

Don, what you have written are common popular beliefs. What I have written are personal observations. Anyone can take them to heart, or ignore them as they see fit. Most will ignore them.
I'm by no means a ki expert. I've only spent around a year actively persuing ki. I find there is something of value to be learned by studying ki. I know that my knowedge in that area. My personal beliefs however keep me from believing in mystical energy. I'm a scientific guy. To me its like magic tricks. It's easy to explain how a magic try works, but pulling it off in front of a crowd requires major major skills and practice. A level of training most of us do not have the time to build nor aquire. This of course does not mean we shouldn't try. It just means you can't be a master without putting in the dedication of a master.

I used the water hose method because it was the first thing to come to my head. I've heard beams of light, flowing energy, laser beams, steel bar, etc. I've even been told to imagine breathing in the entire universe and then channeling the energy though my arm. The firehose always worked best for me. Although now, I just stick my arm out and I really don't imagine anything. I just have a feeling that you can't bend my arm. I guess it is still mental in a way because I'm usually just thinking that I have the right position and body mechanics to make it hard for that person to bend my arm. Although when I use it in BJJ, I can't actaully say i'm thinking about it, it just happens. Usually the majority of my thoughts in bjj are like this

"Breathe, breathe, breathe, slow down, breathe, slow down, use your hips, body weight, body weight, slow down, breathe."

I guess my biggest problem with ki is that everyone seems to have a different opinon on what it is and how to develop it. That is not scientific in my mind and it just bothers me. Some guys talk about it being energy they can shoot you with from 10 feet away, other's talk about it just being proper breathing, other cordination of mind and body, yet others i'm sure have other ways of explaining it. And then everyone has different methods of developing it. I believe there is always a best method for doing anything. Most people can agree on the best way to armbar someone from the mount, or the best way to throw a jab. But there seems to be little agreement on if ki exists, and if it does if its important to learn, and finally how to develop and use it.

Of course, I could just not be looking in the right places.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:38 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: New and wondering about ki

If someone wants to learn just the strength, power, health, emitted stuff (cool, but it doesn't do much other than be cool), etc., they don't have to do a martial art. Many qigong exercises, when done correctly, go straight for developing the body skills and avoiding the time spent on martial forms, training, etc. Some people like to go that way, so it's not necessarily a choice of "which martial art". Then again, finding someone teaching a viable qigong methodology in the US is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:09 AM   #18
paulb
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
You need to look more into chinese medicine/tai-chi /chi-gung.
Good advice, but as stated above may be a bit of a search.
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Old 11-05-2006, 02:42 AM   #19
tedehara
 
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I'm by no means a ki expert. I've only spent around a year actively persuing ki. I find there is something of value to be learned by studying ki. I know that my knowedge in that area. My personal beliefs however keep me from believing in mystical energy. I'm a scientific guy. To me its like magic tricks. It's easy to explain how a magic try works, but pulling it off in front of a crowd requires major major skills and practice. A level of training most of us do not have the time to build nor aquire. This of course does not mean we shouldn't try. It just means you can't be a master without putting in the dedication of a master....
The concept of ki is a belief system. Like many belief systems there are different sects or interpretations on what is going on. To compound the problem is the fact that this phenomenon is internal or unobservable to the eye. Therefore the feedback that is common in most other types of martial arts, is not readily available.

The area that ki in the martial arts covers, mainly the relationship between the mind and body, has just begun to be researched in the Western medicine under psychoneuroimmunolgy [PNI]. PNI started in the 1970s so there is relatively little information that could help a martial artist. Instead you will still have to rely on the experiences and interpretations of others who studied these traditions of ki.

You could study with the Ki Society or a derivative style like Kokikai, which attempts to understand and teach the concept of ki in the aikido structure. You could study tai-chi or qigoing, since these are also internal arts that concerns itself with ki/chi. You could study yoga, which concerns itself with prana, the same concept as chi/ki.

Western science has yet to discover any energy known in the orient as prana/chi/ki, so you'll need to suspend your belief and keep an open mind while you're learning. You can treat this like Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics works well for everyday use. It's only when you go to extremes do you need relativistic theory. These concepts of chi/ki/prana work well for everyday use. However you should consider what you learn carefully and think things through for yourself, instead of taking anything on faith or tradition.

Teaching someone to think of their arm as a water hose with the water gushing out of their fingers, is an easy way to get them to feel what the Ki Society (KS) calls ki extension. However KS realized this was incorrect, since it indicated the person had to do something. The idea of ki extension was that it just is. You don't have to do anything special to have it.

If you're successful thinking of your unbendable arm as having water run through it, have the same person test the other arm. If both arms are unbendable, then have two people test both arms at the same time. Usually one or the other arm will collapse. That is because the mind switches back and forth between both arms. If you're trying to imagine water going through one arm, then the other arm is not extending properly.

Hold out both arms again and this time relax completely or think of one point, which ever is easier. Have both people test both arms at the same time. Basically ignore both people and continue to relax. Generally both arms will pass the unbendable arm test. That's because you're maintaining mind and body coordination therefore you will automatically have ki extension. Ki extension becomes something you can have 24x7 rather than something you need to do in order to pass a test.

If you want to learn something, you need to spend the time to learn it. If you want to learn anything to the best of your ability, then you'll need to devote yourself.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 11-05-2006, 08:51 PM   #20
DonMagee
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Re: New and wondering about ki

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:

If you want to learn something, you need to spend the time to learn it. If you want to learn anything to the best of your ability, then you'll need to devote yourself.
The most important point anyone can make.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:05 PM   #21
Mike Hamer
 
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Ki Symbol Re: New and wondering about ki

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