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Old 06-01-2004, 08:32 AM   #1
stern9631
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Cool AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
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Old 06-01-2004, 08:38 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...e719 891#5303

There are some other threads that are relevant there as well.

RT

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Old 06-01-2004, 10:10 AM   #3
Mark Barlow
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

We use a variation of kaiten nage with great success against MMA & BJJ. Like any technique, it requires extensive practice with realistic attacks.

Mark Barlow
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Old 06-01-2004, 11:55 AM   #4
Jordan Steele
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

A double leg takedown is very hard to avoid if the attacker is determined to tackle you. A few variations we do in class are a modified kaiten-nage, kata-gatame, choke/neck-crank, but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.
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Old 06-01-2004, 12:51 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

[quote]but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.[quote]

In my experience, those only work on sloppy tackles...an experienced wrestler or bjjer usually has no problem with those types of defenses because of their setup and posture. A sprawl will give you an even chance...

Ron

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Old 06-01-2004, 12:56 PM   #6
Joe Jutsu
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
In my experience, those only work on sloppy tackles...an experienced wrestler or bjjer usually has no problem with those types of defenses because of their setup and posture. A sprawl will give you an even chance...

Ron
Do you think that a sprawl would be considered an aiki response by most aikidoka? I've never seen the modified kaitenage which is intreaging, but as a former wrestler, I know I would fall back on a sprawl myself.

Joe
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Old 06-01-2004, 01:46 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Depends...if you read the link I posted above, there are some similarities in the 45 degree pivot method and the sprawl...except the pivot method tries to focus more on maintaining posture. The sprawl is probably a better bet against a larger opponant, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to try it if multiple opponants are involved.

Guess what though...there's no guarantees either way...the best thing to do is to find a wrestler and try a few things. Be prepared to get bounced off the mat a bit though. teeheehee...you get used to it.

Ron (42, and getting too old for such nonsense)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-01-2004, 01:50 PM   #8
Jordan Steele
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Now that I think about I agree with Ron that a knee butt or an elbow would probably not work with a skilled wrestler or BJJer, and yes the sprawl is very effective, but it doesn't "stop" the attacker. Aikido philosophy aside, I don't want to end up on the ground so I would probably resort to more blunt alternatives if someone tried to tackle me.
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:10 PM   #9
Don_Modesto
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
Who's the attacker?

Kenneth W. Starr: Box his ears, knee his face, UDE GARAMI, GANSEKI OTOSHI.

Pamela Anderson: UKEMI, extend ki, unify.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-01-2004, 03:11 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Man, Don's humor, as always, cuts right to the point!

Quote:
and yes the sprawl is very effective, but it doesn't "stop" the attacker.
You have a good point there...it is often said that 'aiki' must be applied at the moment of contact...but while a sprawl may not stop the attack, it will certainly give you a fair chance of surviving the attack, which may give you the opportunity to apply 'aiki' at some later moment in the struggle. Without the sprawl (or something like it) you *could* just be toast...or worse yet, jam...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-01-2004, 03:14 PM   #11
Bronson
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

When this has been tried on my I usually go for the fall down and scream "NOT IN THE FACE, NOT IN THE FACE" as loudly as I can tactic.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:29 PM   #12
Largo
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

knee the face. Atemi is aikido.

I pretty much agree with Don. Not sure how much I'd like to extend and unify with Pam Anderson though . To each their own.
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:45 PM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jordan Steele wrote:
A double leg takedown is very hard to avoid if the attacker is determined to tackle you. A few variations we do in class are a modified kaiten-nage, kata-gatame, choke/neck-crank, but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.
I was just watching Steven Seagal's Aikido: The Path Without Thought. He did a wonderful double palm pulse strike on an uke who was "shooting" on him that, had he not pulled it, would have totally messed up the uke's neck and put a good stop to his attempt to get to the legs (the uke was Matusoka Sensei I believe).

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:33 PM   #14
Aristeia
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I disagree that the sprawl is not Aiki. It gets you off the line of attack (withdraws the legs that were the target of the attack) and uses body motion to redirect the attackers motion to a position of off-balance/compromise. Sounds aiki to me.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-02-2004, 03:52 AM   #15
Jorx
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I was just watching Steven Seagal's Aikido: The Path Without Thought. He did a wonderful double palm pulse strike on an uke who was "shooting" on him that, had he not pulled it, would have totally messed up the uke's neck and put a good stop to his attempt to get to the legs (the uke was Matusoka Sensei I believe).
Steven Seagal? The guy who was supposed not pass out while choked and then was choked unconcious by Gene LeBell? The guy who was "too busy" and "too dangerous" to accept Bill Wallace's challenges?

Anyone can do anything against commited attack while just sitting there and waiting for it. But when there is real combat with feints and movement then I see no way of "beautifully double-palming" anyone. And have not seen it anywhere where the context would be more valid than on a Steven Seagal's tape.

As I have never been to Matusoka senseis seminar's / nor seen any of specifically his tapes I don't say anything about his ability to "shoot"... yet... has he any backround of grappling as well?

Mr. Ledyard... as you are with no doubt a person with very high level of knowledge, experience and skills in traditional MA as well in Aikido, you have created contemporary self-defence programs and obviously (trusting internet as the source) are an appreciated teacher in the US - how often do you / have you sparred with different opponents on different skill levels / pshysical abilities / MA background?
(And the question is about sparring in western means... not Aikido style randori)
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Old 06-02-2004, 04:44 AM   #16
Keith_k
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

A sprawl may or may not be aiki, but it works. Many people take wrestling classes in high school or college, so leg takedowns are not all that uncommon. Why neglect the most effective counter for this technique, a technique which will put you in the most disadvantageous position you can be in, simply because it may or may not fit someone's arbitrary definition of "aiki?"

Keith
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Old 06-02-2004, 08:16 AM   #17
Mel Barker
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
A sprawl may or may not be aiki, but it works. Many people take wrestling classes in high school or college, so leg takedowns are not all that uncommon. Why neglect the most effective counter for this technique, a technique which will put you in the most disadvantageous position you can be in, simply because it may or may not fit someone's arbitrary definition of "aiki?"

Keith
How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?

Mel Barker
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Old 06-02-2004, 08:40 AM   #18
paw
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?
How is one able to deal with attackers from one's rear if they are pinned on the ground?

A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:14 AM   #19
Greg Jennings
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?
Much better than if one is one is pinned to the ground, stunned from being slammed down.

Once you're practiced at the sprawl, you can oft times stay on your feet and quickly regain your mobility.

The sprawl isn't the only option but it is a very reliable one. If the shooter is good and especially if you let them dictate events, you'd better know it.

I, personally, believe it is wise to pay attention to techniques that are uniformly used by competitors that have world-class coaching and the very best motivation to use what works.

That said, one must take into account the assumptions behind the techniques. Viable techniques could be eliminated by the rules of the game, etc.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-02-2004, 11:27 AM   #20
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Steven Seagal? The guy who was supposed not pass out while choked and then was choked unconcious by Gene LeBell? The guy who was "too busy" and "too dangerous" to accept Bill Wallace's challenges?

Anyone can do anything against commited attack while just sitting there and waiting for it. But when there is real combat with feints and movement then I see no way of "beautifully double-palming" anyone. And have not seen it anywhere where the context would be more valid than on a Steven Seagal's tape.

As I have never been to Matusoka senseis seminar's / nor seen any of specifically his tapes I don't say anything about his ability to "shoot"... yet... has he any backround of grappling as well?

Mr. Ledyard... as you are with no doubt a person with very high level of knowledge, experience and skills in traditional MA as well in Aikido, you have created contemporary self-defence programs and obviously (trusting internet as the source) are an appreciated teacher in the US - how often do you / have you sparred with different opponents on different skill levels / pshysical abilities / MA background?
(And the question is about sparring in western means... not Aikido style randori)
Let's forget all that movie hype about challenges etc. with Steven Seagal. The choke thing happened because he was dumb enough to let a guy he didn't know put a choke on him. As any of us know there isn't an escape from a choke that is really on, you have to beat it before. They weren't fighting, he let LeBell put it on, thinking he would show the folks on the movie set how Aikido folks do an "escape". It was dumb of him but it doesn't say anything at all about his ability to fight (if that's important to you).

I don't spar. And I am not a grappler. What grappling I've done was via the Araki Ryu training I did under Ellis Amdur Sensei and a bit through the local Police Academy with Matt Hume and Eric Paulson (Extreme Fighting). My ability to execute the technique I mentioned against some isn't the point though... If I made it a goal to practice it, I have no doubt that eventually I would get to the point where I could execute it against some folks at least.

All of our training is about this issue... what level is the partner you are training with? Are there people who could succesfully shoot on Seagal? Sure, I would think so. Are there people who couldn't if they tried, certainly. It's a technique, that's all. No one said that this is the end all be all unbeatable technique which would place an Aikido guy ahead of any BJJ practitioner.

This is that stupid question of "if a guy from martial art X meets an Aikido guy, who would win?" And the answer, which hasn't changed over the years as martial arts fads come and go, is the guy who is better at what he does than the other guy.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-02-2004 at 11:36 AM.

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Old 06-02-2004, 12:37 PM   #21
Jorx
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
It was dumb of him but it doesn't say anything at all about his ability to fight (if that's important to you).

I don't spar. And I am not a grappler. What grappling I've done was via the Araki Ryu training I did under Ellis Amdur Sensei and a bit through the local Police Academy with Matt Hume and Eric Paulson (Extreme Fighting).

No one said that this is the end all be all unbeatable technique which would place an Aikido guy ahead of any BJJ practitioner.

This is that stupid question of "if a guy from martial art X meets an Aikido guy, who would win?" And the answer, which hasn't changed over the years as martial arts fads come and go, is the guy who is better at what he does than the other guy.
(Seagal) And he has no proof of his ability to fight... yet he has made many claims about existance of this ability. To me that tells a lot about a person in MA scene.

When you do not spar... that takes a lot of faith to KNOW that the things you do are for real when you do not spar.

Considering the subject of a double-leg takedown you could do lets say 1000 reps of someone shooting at you and you doing a technique but I think one would still be tackled if that happened in a fight.

Paulson seems a great guy and has some really great ideas... yet (and i think that comes from his JKD background) he is also one of those who emphasizes technique over delivery system.

The guys in SBG have a good saying. "In the end, the guy with best delivery system wins." That's almost what you said. Though I'd like to point out that in present day most aikidoka don't have a delivery system. They have a bunch of techniques attatched practiced in dead repetiton, attached to footwork that doesn't work in a fight of today against attacks of today.

Martial Arts are evolving with the society... but somehow I feel that Aikido is stuck in methods and techniques of the past and ideology of the future. So it's a very dissonantial art instead of being harmonic. Of course it's fun and can give you a lot but when we are talking terms of fighting...


Sorry for trolling the subject but this post like... got out of hand.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:49 PM   #22
paw
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Paulson seems a great guy and has some really great ideas... yet (and i think that comes from his JKD background) he is also one of those who emphasizes technique over delivery system.
I'm very interested as to how you came to that conclusion. Particularly, when one considers how Erik trains, instructs his students, conducts seminars, and his statements concerning trapping in Grappling Magazine.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:02 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

[quote]When you do not spar... [\quote]

Uhh, let's be clear here, though you do bring up some very valid points, sparring is NOT fighting. It can have its uses in certain methodologies, perhaps its addition to aikido training would be interesting, if not a good thing...but it is NOT fighting. I know personally many people who do not spar who have been successful in fights and self defense situations.

Ron

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Old 06-02-2004, 01:31 PM   #24
Jorx
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
I'm very interested as to how you came to that conclusion. Particularly, when one considers how Erik trains, instructs his students, conducts seminars, and his statements concerning trapping in Grappling Magazine.
He is like... all submission... you could learn a zillion submissions from him. Lockflows and things. Miracle escape-into-submission techniques from bottom and so forth and so on. Even if it doesn't affect him, sure does his students.

AND... he hasn't done so great in the competitions to put up to his methods.
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:38 PM   #25
Jorx
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Uhh, let's be clear here, though you do bring up some very valid points, sparring is NOT fighting. It can have its uses in certain methodologies, perhaps its addition to aikido training would be interesting, if not a good thing...but it is NOT fighting. I know personally many people who do not spar who have been successful in fights and self defense situations.
Ron
Of course there is the POSSIBILITY of being successful in fight and self-defence. Especially against average drunk joe with a haymaker.

But what we have today - as it is NOT normal to test yourself on street nor we do not have wars where we could test our hand to hand combat - sparring is the CLOSEST training method to real thing. Training with an uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement. Training ALIVE. Not in a set pattern, in dead repetition.

And what's as important sparring can give you confidence which you really need. You KNOW that you can execute your technique. You've been there and done that.

...my opinion...
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