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Old 11-22-2011, 05:10 PM   #26
Belt_Up
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Quote:
Ps - choking someone out/rendering someone unconcious in my country is considered a "Grevious Bodily Harm" charge.
I'd like to know which country that is, and under which law?
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:35 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Expect the old thread police to be along shortly. .
Nah, it's not really a specific person's problem per se, just a good topic!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:34 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

I don't see how Aikido can be violent. It's the perfect non-violent martial art.

In my view those using violence within it are not doing what I call Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:04 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

An interesting point here, how are your techniques? I can safely say that all of mine are non-violent, I thought that was what Aikido was about.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:58 PM   #30
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

A carotid sleeper hold, commonly known as a choke hold, can be considered a felonious assault here in California in some circumstances. The bar arm choke which affects the trachea moreso.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:53 PM   #31
Aikironin21
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

My first Sensei, said Aikido is violent, just less aggressive than other styles. Our definition of what is violent, is relative to our individual experiences. Where as an Aikidoka's aim is not to harm uke, it is still taking part in a violent situation where someone is trying to harm you. In the dojo, it is non-violent, due to the compliant partner practice. If you are required to use Aikido techniques in the real world, trust me, it is a violent situation.

Now the aggression comes from the attacker, but the scenario as whole in which Aikido becomes a part of is violent. The peace doesn't come till the end after Aikido has been applied.
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Old 11-23-2011, 03:00 AM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

I'm a vegetarian. I don't believe in killing animals. However, it still doesn't change the fact that I am a human, homo sapien, that is still a carnivore.

It is not about if Aikido is violent or non-violent. Aikido is a martial art, based on martial princples. By it's DNA alone it deals with violence.

However, most who practice Aikido have adopted the philosophy of non-violence and practice it in such a way as to work towards a process of minimal force and reconciliation of violence in less violent ways.

That though is an individual choice and does not change the fact that at it's root aikido deals with violence. No different than me being a vegetarian makes me less of a carnivore.

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Old 11-23-2011, 03:26 AM   #33
philipsmith
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

i agree with all of the posters who say that the intent is the important thing.

Chiba Sensei once quoted O Sensei as saying "True compassion is being able to kill but choosing not to kill".

Aikido is not IMHO a pacifist, theoretical pursuit. It is a strong effective and deadly fighting system. However it is also an ethical framework to allow us to temper strength with compassion.
Fortunately most Aikidoka follow this ethical principle.
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Old 11-23-2011, 05:26 AM   #34
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

I wouldn't call it a deadly fighting system from my perspective. The capacity and potential is there. Deadly fighitng systems are trained a whole nother way from my experiences.

That does not mean that the ability, capacity, or potential is not there, but certainly it is not the focus or goal.

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Old 11-23-2011, 05:50 AM   #35
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
It is not about if Aikido is violent or non-violent. Aikido is a martial art, based on martial princples. By it's DNA alone it deals with violence.
Yes agreed.

It asks the question, do we have to be violent to deal with violence?

Well, do we?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-23-2011, 05:52 AM   #36
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Chiba Sensei once quoted O Sensei as saying "True compassion is being able to kill but choosing not to kill".
Yes agreed.

The choice is compassion or incompetence?

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:09 AM   #37
gates
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
It asks the question, do we have to be violent to deal with violence?
To stop violence with violence, you have used violence so you haven't exactly 'dealt' with it, (in its totality).

Is self defence just another label for justified fighting?

Enjoy the journey
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:32 AM   #38
genin
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

You need to see the forest for the trees.

Violence is the trees. Non-violence is the forest. Aikido is the space between the trees.
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:49 AM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

It asks the question, do we have to be violent to deal with violence?

Well, do we?
Well I think it depends on the definition of "Deal with". I think we must understand the causes and nature of violence in order to deal with it.

We can deal with it in many ways. Prevention and deterrence are two ways. I think it is best to deal with it on a strategic level instead when possible. We still must deal with it. We certainly can't ignore it.

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Old 11-23-2011, 08:26 AM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

It asks the question, do we have to be violent to deal with violence?

Well, do we?
It also asks the question - what exactly is "violence"? If you shoot someone to prevent them from shooting somebody else, is that violence?

We should remember here, as well, that Kisshomaru Ueshiba stated explicitly that his father was not a pacifist.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-23-2011, 08:28 AM   #41
TOMAC
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

It asks the question, do we have to be violent to deal with violence?

Well, do we?
If we deal with violent attack in a violent fashion the answer is yes. If, however, we accept the violent attack and protect ourselves using Aiki principles we hopefully avoid violence. I think it is important to realize that a violent confrontation, even if it is not of our own making, can damage us spiritually if we respond by meeting violence with greater violence. As students of Aikido we carry a responsibility to resolve conflict, even violent conflict, without bringing harm (physical harm or emotional harm) to our attacker. This is a heavy burden. Beating our attacker into submission may be effective but in the long run we are diminished by this process. Aikido provides us with the tools to avoid this outcome.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:33 AM   #42
DH
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
An interesting point here, how are your techniques? I can safely say that all of mine are non-violent, I thought that was what Aikido was about.

Regards.G.
If you raise your hand to a person to cause them to fall down, if you do something to use "their force against them"..... you have committed an act of violence. Any wavering or excuse is just kidding yourself. It is an act of violence...in degrees.
The only real option for a passive person, is to stand and let them hit you-even kill you- and take any thing of yours that they wish. That takes tremendous bravery and an indomitable conviction of will. That's why true passiveness is beyond the capabilities of most people.
Interestingly, the term passive/ agressive as a mental state or attitude, can be tied into the type of lack of resolve exhibited in dealing wih people in a forthright and clear manner that is played out on Mats everywhere...in all kinds of arts. This includes MMA gyms where guys will get people in locks and crank AFTER they have tapped someone out and AFTER everyone agreed it was a casual roll. People carry their damage everywhere they go.

If you are practicing aikido you are committing violence. Get over it. Otherwise take off the martial outfit (from a culture not your own) and put down the wooden weapons...you don't belong. If you put on the funny outfit (hey, I wear them too) and pick up a weapon, be resolved at what you are doing.

I would agree with Kevin; you avoid and reduce, you prepare and de-escalate, and when you can, give a measured response. Sometimes the best response is total domination to stop the violence- with violence- to restore the peace.

Overall, I think it is important to have these issues thoroughly resolved in your own mind so that you are mentally prepared. Nothing is as calming or as definitive as being the one person in the room who is aware, prepared, and ready to act in an instant. I would offer that many times it is palpable (not always) to others.
Happy thanksgiving
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-23-2011 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:39 AM   #43
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.
M.G.

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Old 11-23-2011, 08:54 AM   #44
ryback
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Be assured that ALL aiki techniques have many "sharp edges" within the principles of the technique.

One of the things I love about aikido is that a well-trained budoka has a choice about the level of lethal force. Of course, many aggressors in self-defence situations injure themselves.

My advice is that if you're in danger, protect yourself to the best of your ability and worry about the rest later. Of course, the more skilled you become, the more responsibility you have for "restraint" and control. My goal is to always "do as little harm as possible."
I entered the thread with the intention of posting my thoughts but i realised that Chuck's opinion covered me.Aikido is a non-resisting martial art,but martial art nevertheless,so it has indeed many sharp edges within its principles.It's non violent since you blend becoming one with the attacker,but it also offers extreme solutions for extreme situations,where is the aggressiveness of the attacker himself that actually causes him damage or injury while the aikido technique is applied...
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:09 AM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Dan wrote:

Quote:
Overall, I think it is important to have these issues thoroughly resolved in your own mind so that you are mentally prepared. Nothing is as calming or as definitive as being the one person in the room who is aware, prepared, and ready to act in an instant. I would offer that many times it is palpable (not always) to others.
And thus is the purpose of Budo. I think this is the bottomline of all we can really do in the end. The outcome, you cannot predict, but it really doesn't matter as long as you did what you did without emotion, excess, and you do it for the right reasons.

I think it is dangerous going into any situations with a so-called "ethical Aiki way" that dictates a right and wrong way to do things and states that you failed if you did not peacefully resolve things. I think in many cases this process is out of our hands and we must allow ourselves to be free of such notions.

We do what we can do to prepare to have a clear mind and be prepared to do what we can do...outside of that we have to be willing to go the distance if need be.

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Old 11-23-2011, 09:38 AM   #46
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan wrote:

And thus is the purpose of Budo. I think this is the bottomline of all we can really do in the end. The outcome, you cannot predict, but it really doesn't matter as long as you did what you did without emotion, excess, and you do it for the right reasons.

I think it is dangerous going into any situations with a so-called "ethical Aiki way" that dictates a right and wrong way to do things and states that you failed if you did not peacefully resolve things. I think in many cases this process is out of our hands and we must allow ourselves to be free of such notions.

We do what we can do to prepare to have a clear mind and be prepared to do what we can do...outside of that we have to be willing to go the distance if need be.
Kevin:

Hope Germany is treating you well. Your position is entirely realistic. It is so easy to wax and wane poetically about issues regarding peace, violence, non-violence.... particularly from the comforts of a safe place without imminent danger. Our training is to be in the moment with a clear mind, prepared to do what we need to do to come home to our loved ones. We don't go into these situations with violence in our hearts or intent. Preserving peace and our ability to live within that realm can sometimes entail doing what is necessary in that moment. Walking into a conflict with some preconceived notion of our philosophical intents is not being in the moment, which can easily lead to bad outcomes.

Happy Thanksgiving, and I look forward to visiting you in the spring.

Marc Abrams
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Old 11-23-2011, 11:44 AM   #47
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Re: Is Aikido Non-Violent?

Thank Marc! Look forward to your visit! Yes, in the moment, with an unfettered mind!

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