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Old 11-10-2004, 09:25 PM   #26
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

I, for one, would really like to know who had the knife, who pulled it out etc...
We all know where it wound up.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 11-11-2004, 01:11 AM   #27
p00kiethebear
 
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Dojo: Tonbo Dojo
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

A verdict has been reached...

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10149165.htm

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:13 PM   #28
Dan Gould
Dojo: Cilfynydd, Pontypridd
Location: Abercynon, Wales
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

If that was self defence, even when drunk off your features, surely, if you can manage to redirect the attack that many times, you'd be capable of taking the guy to ground and pinning him, removing the knife, and leave him be with no more than a good shoeing?

I think he's telling some mistruths :-s Drunk or not, people still have judgement. I think if he was sober enough to do the techniques he was sober enough to stop the guy without cutting him that many times.

And personally, after the first two attacks, I'd pretty much give up, I wouldn't wait to be stabbed 20 times :-p
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Old 11-11-2004, 08:41 PM   #29
adriangan
 
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Dojo: Jitsuyo Bugei
Location: Manila
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.
i agree, i don't think you can justify 18 stab wounds with self-defense.

"Masakatsu Agatsu"
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Old 11-13-2004, 06:27 AM   #30
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.
Not FMA that I know of (I take it).
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Old 11-14-2004, 12:49 PM   #31
chrisward
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
I think hes going ot jail for a long time.
I think your right Thomas! And I hope he is that good at Aikido because he is going to need it where he's going....
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:54 PM   #32
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

He got 3 years for stabbing someone 18 times.
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Old 11-15-2004, 12:01 PM   #33
Yokaze
 
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Location: Sonoma State University
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

I think this whole thing goes quite against the entire concept of Aikido. After all, if this man was so skilled in Aikido that he could make another man stab himself 18 times, shouldn't he be skilled enough to subdue the attacker without undue harm?

Maybe I'm just overly idealistic o.0

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

Icon courtesy of Norbert Knoll http://www.aikido-verein-hannover.de
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:28 AM   #34
CarlRylander
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Couldn't he have knocked the attacker out or something? I've heard that there's moves in Aikido which paralyse people: A neck pinch or something. I think you're only justified in killing somone if there's more than one opponent. If it was me being attacked, if he still continued after the first redirection, I'd break his arm or paralyse him That would lessen the chances of his reattacking considerably.

I haven't taken up Aikido yet.
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:58 PM   #35
davidraybell
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

I don't know anything about any "Vulcan death grips" or any moves that paralyze people. Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't heard of anything like that...

However, every time I get a good kote-gaeshi on my right side, I feel the pins in my arm twist... Hurts real bad... Could easily break an arm... I've been studying for almost a year now and I don't think that I could stab someone 18 times... not even using the techniques that the Marine Corps taught me. I dunno... I'm not buying the self defense thing.

I do, however, feel that it would be nice if our justice system could get more than 3 years for taking a life. just my opinion though, for what its worth

But what do I know, I'm just a white belt.
Dave
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:59 AM   #36
Solarius
 
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Dojo: The Aikido Center of Vilnius
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Well... that's a strange one. However, if the 'attacked' knew Aikido so well that he could make 18 stab wounds with the 'attacker's' own knife, he surely knew techniques that would disarm the 'attacker'. So what was his motivation to simply merrily stab his oponent to death?
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Old 11-17-2004, 09:41 AM   #37
cck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 59
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Re: Knives...

Quote:
Tim Rohr wrote:
Um... anyone who carries keys has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone who lets their fingernails grow has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone wearing shoes...

Anyone with arms...

It isn't ownership of the knife, but rather possession at the time of use. It is the intent to use it... and either party can be guilty of that - either the one that had it on them at the start of the altercation, or the other person if that person is able to get possession of the knife.
Yeah, ok: Guns don't kill people, people do? I would still claim that anyone NOT trained in a martial art or otherwise instructed on how to use their shoes, fingernails etc. as a deadly weapon, but who choose to take along a knife or anything else that the reasonable person would perceive as dangerous definitely has the idea of using it to harm someone - or, to their mind, defending themselves ("the best defense is a good offense", as we hear a lot) against some more or less vaguely defined enemy.

I am sure the enlightened lot who frequent this site are perfectly able to restrain themselves and carry a knife for some other (aesthetic???) reason, and to not feel threatened by other people carrying knives. But believe me, for the average Joe and Jane, a knife is a serious threat no matter in whose hands it is (or in whose back pocket, sheath, sock, etc), and one that tends to immediately put you in a position of complete fear with all that entails.

On the story, how did either of those guys ever end up in that situation in the first place? Seems to me the dojo has not done a great job of explaining the idea of not getting yourself into situations like that.
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:06 AM   #38
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Based on the news article linked previously, it appears that both men were drunk (or at least heading that way) when they got into a fight. The convicted defendant carried the knife that was used in the killing BEFORE the confrontation. They clashed, the decedent was stabbed many times and the defendant provided a defense that the stabbing was self-defense and a witness claimed he and the defendant took a summer aikido course that would, in his opinion, cause the victim's injuries. That story sounded like a large load of manure to me, an opinion apparently shared by twelve fine citizens of Virginia.

Is there really any one on this thread that believes that aikido techniques caused all the victim's injuries? That a relatively inexperienced aikido student was so very good (or so very bad)? This had nothing to do with aikido except for the defense's attempt to get a drunken thug acquitted. It had a lot more to do with testosterone, alcohol and stupidity.

I don't think the question really is whether he could have used safer techniques, but rather could he have left the damned knife at home, stayed sober, stayed away from the fight in the first place. He didn't; one died, one has his life ruined, and two families are damaged.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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