Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2004, 12:58 PM   #1
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Aikido main defense in murder trial

http://www.dailyprogress.com/servlet...79036353&path=

What do you think?


Could he do all that while drunk?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 01:31 PM   #2
garry cantrell
Location: texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

i didn't see any indication of the amount of alcohol, if any, consumed by alston prior to the incident other than implications made by the d.a. so, yeah, he might've had a shot at performing those particular techniques.....and the self defense angle works well for the first couple of stab wounds. it will be tougher to explain the last 15 or 16 as a reasonable response to an attack though. it'll be interesting to see what the jury decides.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 01:42 PM   #3
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Garry Cantrell wrote:
it will be tougher to explain the last 15 or 16 as a reasonable response to an attack though.
Suppose Alston couldn't get the knife away from the attacker. The attacker keeps struggling to bring the knife to bear and all Alston can do is to keep hold and keep re-directing the attacks...back into the attacker. Possible? I suppose so. I think if he pulled it off he's either very very skilled or very very lucky.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 01:59 PM   #4
suren
Dojo: Aikido of Silicon Valley
Location: Fremont, CA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 248
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Sisk, a volunteer firefighter from Free Union, died Nov. 8, 2003, after a night of barhopping and a verbal confrontation near the Corner. He suffered a stab wound to the heart, wounds to his left arm, upper back, right shoulder and lower back, and two cuts to his face.

Alston, who was a third-year biology major at the University of Virginia, maintains that he acted in self-defense.
Huh?! 18 cuts while defending yourself and some of them into the upper and lower back?! Whose nephew is that Alston?

Quote:
Larry McCann testified that a cut that Alston sustained on his right hand was likely a defensive wound. His theory is counter to the analysis of the state's chief medical examiner, who testified last week that Alston's wound was consistent with a bloody knife slipping out of an attacker's hand.

"How many autopsies have you performed, Mr. McCann?" Zug asked during cross-examination.

"None," McCann replied.

Zug also questioned how much money the defense was paying him for his testimony. McCann said his company has already billed the defense $20,000 for his time.

"Are you selling your testimony?" the prosecutor asked.

"No, sir, I believe my testimony is the truth," McCann said.
Oh, sure! For that amount I assume he could believe in anything.
Ridiculous story! A guy is defending himself by stubbing the knife into the heart of the attacker, then attacker does not give up, he stubs the knife into his neck from the back and finally into his lower back! IMO it's a shame that Aikido is used to make people believe in that nonsense.

Last edited by suren : 11-09-2004 at 02:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 02:06 PM   #5
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

I think hes going ot jail for a long time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 02:20 PM   #6
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,124
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

All they gotta do is convince one knucklehead on the jury..........

Kinda interesting that the defense called another student and not the instructor. I don't know who taught those classes, but I want to buy his book, DVDs, and move into his dojo. Spending years learning kihon-waza seems a waste of time when you can learn so much, so quickly.

Seriously, maybe the first wound, but the rest sound very much like the defendant had the knife. I've seen several pretty weird killings and accidental deaths, but not quite this bizarre. Maybe OJ should look at this guy as the real killer he's been seeking.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 02:47 PM   #7
Jen R
Dojo: Aikido of Charlottesville
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

As a member of Aikido of Charlottesville, all I can really think is, "Oh, s**t."

I've only been training there for less than two years, but I've never heard of either of these two. I just hope this doesn't negatively affect the dojo.

Here's a link with more info:

http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/...aringNigh.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 02:59 PM   #8
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,124
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

This latest article makes some more sense to me. Almost every victim of stabbings that I've ever interviewed told me that they thought they were punched and didn't know they were being stabbed. From this article I'm lead to believe that Andrew had a knife and stabbed Sisk multiple times. Somehow I would'da thought a brother UVA student would be bright enough to come up with a more plausible story......Let's see what the jurors think.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 04:19 PM   #9
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

It's totally possible for the knife to come back into the alleged attacker and stab them in the face neck and chest.

I can't seem to figure out the back stabs though. I would think a heart stab would end it very quickly though.

I think the guy is lying, so don't think I believe his story, but I know that if your extending someones arm, it will instinctively pull itself back.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 04:26 PM   #10
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,124
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Twenty times? Sorta like holding on to a hot horseshoe; it doesn't take long to examine all you need to see.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 05:51 PM   #11
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

If the first stab was to the heart, that should have ended most of the struggle right there. Not that I'm an expert, but I just can't see someone lasting very long in a fight with a ruptured pump. If the guy has enough Aikido experience to re-direct a knife stab while drunk, he should have enough to throw the attacker to the ground and hold him there with a pin untill help arrives. I don't buy the self defence plea. Alston killed this guy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2004, 06:00 PM   #12
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Actually, this sounds completely /possible/ to me. Here's the scenario I envisioned:

Sisk attacks Alston with knife.
Alston sidesteps or small-pivots. he grabs Sisk's hand and twists it in a nikkyo direction.
Sisk's forward momentum, or him retracting the knife, or Alston pushing it inwards, carries it into his chest. In fact, it seems like your forearm length is just about right to rotate in and strike your heart.
The knife comes loose. The two twisting and moving might well carry it past the initial entry point on the left chest to strike the arm.
Alston begins a nikkyo ura-waza style takedown. This would sweep the knife around and into Sisk's back. Sisk is probably already falling over by this point, so this would be easy even for a drunk person.
If you think about it, stab wounds to the heart, left arm, and back are entirely consistent with where the knife would go in such a technique.

That doesn't mean I believe him. It's just that it /is/ remarkably consistent with where a knife might go in a struggling nikkyo takedown and pin.
I suppose it partially depends on how deep the stab wounds are - my theory here (remarkably similar to a textbook munemochi-nikkyo #2) would predict a number of light slashes/shallow stabs.


And of course, this is only part of the trial...

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 11-09-2004 at 06:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 06:57 AM   #13
Jen R
Dojo: Aikido of Charlottesville
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Eh, looks like the jury didn't buy it.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=CDP%2FMGArticle%2FCDP_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779059 662&path=!news
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 07:13 AM   #14
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

I think it's possible, but not necessarily the most likely cause of events. All these wounds could just as easily be carried out if he had just attacked him with the knife. Did they trace the knife to either of them? I suggest, whoever had ownership of the knife should be held liable. Anyone who carries a knife has equipped themselves to kill someone (whether they know it or not).
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 09:07 AM   #15
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

The HUGE problem with this 'defense' is that How, if he's good enough to redirect a knife attack 18 times!!! why he wasn't good enough to either strip the blade from his 'attacker' or to redirect to a single fatal blow. It's equally hard to understand how he could have been that effective after "studying Aikido together in the summer of 2002".
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 09:34 AM   #16
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 168
Offline
Knives...

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Anyone who carries a knife has equipped themselves to kill someone (whether they know it or not).
Um... anyone who carries keys has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone who lets their fingernails grow has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone wearing shoes...

Anyone with arms...

It isn't ownership of the knife, but rather possession at the time of use. It is the intent to use it... and either party can be guilty of that - either the one that had it on them at the start of the altercation, or the other person if that person is able to get possession of the knife.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 10:32 AM   #17
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

This guy only studied aikido "in the summer of 2002." Does anyone here honestly believe that studying aikido for a few months would make them proficient in defense against a knife? Even if you believe that to be possible, you then have to be able to support the theory that over a year later, after not practicing aikido during that time, you would still have retained that knowledge and abilities while intoxicated. I don't buy it, and evidently the jury didn't either.

Robert Cronin
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 10:47 AM   #18
garry cantrell
Location: texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

it looks like the jury came back with a voluntary manslaughter verdict. i do not know the particulars of virginia law, but typically voluntary manslaughter requires a failure to find that the murder was done with malice (states can differ on the definition of malice as well - but it usually requires the intentional doing of a wrongful act without just cause or excuse with an intent to inflict injury) - so, the jury apparently placed some blame on the deceased and paid some attention to "heat of the moment" motivation.

also - the right to self defense ends when the threat is over. its a very aiki sort of sensibility. some, probably most, states require that you retreat first before using force. but you're only required to retreat if you can do so safely. texas does not require that you retreat if the altercation is within your own home. but, still, you've got to stop once the threat is neutralized. so, the hard question is - how do you know when the threat is over?

other thoughts: a sankyo against a knife thrust can end up with the knife in a stabbing position into the chest of uke - and i've seen it taught that way - and i've taught it that way, likewise with a gokyo takedown gone wrong. further, a shihonage can end up with the knife in a stabbing position to the upper back - and there are a bunch of others - but i can't think of a single technique that puts you into position for each of the stab wounds observed without some sophisticated transitional moves. none of the witnesses observed anything that sounded like anything particularly sophisticated - not sure that someone unfamiliar with MA would necesarily recognize it though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 11:37 AM   #19
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,710
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 11:56 AM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Wow, this is my home town. I wonder if he studied with anyone I know!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 12:03 PM   #21
Todd Worobey
 
Todd Worobey's Avatar
Dojo: Sowakan Dojo, Maple Ridge
Location: Maple Ridge (Vancouver), BC
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

something stinks with this one, and it sure aint roses...You guys are correct, a stab to the heart would drop the Terminator like a stone never mind anyone else, this one has a very large BS factor.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 01:46 PM   #22
garry cantrell
Location: texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

but that's the question isn't it? if a stab wound to the heart would, in fact, drop him like a stone, is it prudent to wait and see if he drops before stabbing again (assuming, for the sake of this discussion, that stabbing is your only available self defense application) or is it more prudent to continue until you are sure that he is no longer engaging you? relatively few events are instantaneous, including bleed outs. lots of cops make it practice to shoot in groups of two ("double taps") because it is safer than waiting to see if the first bullet works (on the other hand, if i ever tried to shoot anyone, i'd need 30 or 40 bullets and probably wouldn't come close to the intended target with any of them) . not really an answer for that i guess.
hmmm, after all of that, i've gotta say i think the jury was probably right on this one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 02:02 PM   #23
Todd Worobey
 
Todd Worobey's Avatar
Dojo: Sowakan Dojo, Maple Ridge
Location: Maple Ridge (Vancouver), BC
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Stab, stab & stab again? Overkill is not self defense, it's now a mutual fight. stab, take down /throw, run like hell is much more believable. You kill someone you are going to have to ansewer tough questions. All wanna be "Warriors" be warned.

Last edited by Todd Worobey : 11-10-2004 at 02:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 02:06 PM   #24
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Garry Cantrell wrote:
i can't think of a single technique that puts you into position for each of the stab wounds observed without some sophisticated transitional moves.
The article cites stab wounds to the heart, left arm, upper back, and right shoulder.

I'd like to point out the post I made earlier. Those would be precisely the places that a technique like mune-mochi nikkajo to pin would put the knife at. First the heart from the grab and retract, then over to the arm as he grabbed the elbow, then as the guy with the heart wound fell, stabbing along his back on its way to the pin - ending with a twist over the right shoulder.

That's not 18 separate deflections - it's grabbing the knife once, and then struggling to finish a single technique, with numerous small stabs resulting from natural back-and-forth and panicked clumsiness.

Either way, I think a manslaughter conviction is appropriate. He pulled the knife, and may have done these things deliberately. 10 years is a long time, but perhaps it's appropriate - even killing in defense should be viewed harshly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 03:22 PM   #25
j0nharris
Dojo: Kododan Aikido USA
Location: Radford Virginia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 198
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido main defense in murder trial

Quote:
Jennifer Rourke wrote:
As a member of Aikido of Charlottesville, all I can really think is, "Oh, s**t."

I've only been training there for less than two years, but I've never heard of either of these two. I just hope this doesn't negatively affect the dojo.
Hey Jen,
I've trained in C'ville off and on over the last 10 years, and don't recognize either of those (last) names. Maybe they studied with those vicious ki society guys!

If anything I bet membership spikes for a couple of weeks, as all the tough-guy wannabes think,
"Cool, I can learn how to kill someone in self-defense over Christmas break!!"

-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 02:05 PM
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 04:29 AM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:48 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate