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Old 11-29-2004, 11:08 PM   #1
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Why no Kokyunages ?

The Aikikai Hombu dojo doesn't list Kokyunages on their exam sheet. Why not? What about these possible answers?
1) Originally, they would do the whole list in a little over a year. Maybe they thought the trainees were too inexperienced to do them?
2) Kokyunages were considered secret by O Sensei, was this a way of hiding them?
3) Kokyunages are not the essence of the art?
4) Are kokyunages too flexible and non standard? So much so that they can't be listed on a test because they are executed so differently by the different aikikai teachers?
5) Other possible answers????
Best wishes

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:49 AM   #2
tedehara
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
2) Kokyunages were considered secret by O Sensei, was this a way of hiding them?
Kokyu-nages were always considered secret because ...AUCK!!!(**&+_(//;''Who the??@$@^&#$$TRF$#&... dead

We now return to our regular broadcast.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:04 AM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Kokyu-nages were always considered secret because ...AUCK!!!(**&+_(//;''Who the??@$@^&#$$TRF$#&... dead
But ....

...AUCK!!!(**&+_(//;''Who the??@$@^&#$$TRF$#&... also dead.

That was good.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:40 AM   #4
ian
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

but IMHO kokyu-nage is such an important technique because th
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:22 AM   #5
Jordan Steele
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Kokyunages aren't secret but there are an infinite number of them. When you ask somebody to perform a kokyunage, the technique can be literally anything. Maybe hombu just doesn't see the point in asking somebody to perform a technique when it could be absolutely anything.
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:59 AM   #6
aikidoc
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Since they could be anything, then perhaps hombu feels they are too advanced or complicated to ask on a test demonstrating basics.

On that same note, it has always been my opinion that when you have a technique you can't name call it a kokyunage. Like Jordan said, it can be anything so if you call it a kokyunage (all techniques involve breath) then you're safe.

Then of course there is the alluded to conspiracy theory that the Japanese won't show all the secret techniques to us gaijin. In my research on atemi waza, there are those that ascribe to this theory (Clark) to explain why so few were taught atemi.

In a recent seminar with an 8th dan, we had a participant who held high rank in karate (8th dan). The shihan showed standard aikido techniques to the majority of us. However, one of my students was practicing with the karate master and the shihan would slip over and subtlely show them atemi strikes to the vital points. He did not share those with the rest of us. Since my student knows very well my interest in atemi waza he informed me of the instruction. So see, there it is-a conspiracy .
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Old 11-30-2004, 08:53 AM   #7
John Boswell
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

And that was fun stuff too! I just pray to God I'm never on the REAL receiving end of such an atemi. Shihan came very close to landing that strike... YEESH!

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Old 11-30-2004, 09:45 AM   #8
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

There may be something to the "advanced" argument since the Aikikai Hombu grading sheet doesn't have Koshinages either or any weapons requirements. I understand that the weapons issue with the Aikikai Hombu may be a philosophical one and may not fall in the aforementioned category but the absence of Koshinage is again a noteworthy one,
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-30-2004, 09:56 AM   #9
MaryKaye
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Ki Society has nothing *but* kokyunage on the early gradings. Both of the fifth-kyu throws are kokyunage, and the hardest fourth-kyu throw--long after I could do the others more or less adequately, I could get uke to go down for that one only if he was doing me a favor.

To get around the "thousand forms of kokyunage" problem we've given the subtypes names: kosa-tobikomi, enundo, zenpo-nage....

I don't know what this means, but just put it forward as an observation.

Mary Kaye
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:09 AM   #10
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Making a reference to the Ki Society, I was recently told by a high ranking aikidoist who has spent his fair share of time studying Aikido history that at the time that Koichi Tohei was the head instructor at the Aikikai World headquarters, that he did not consider Koshinage's to be a part of the Aikido curriculum. I wonder of any Ki Society practitioners could help me with comments on this? Do you have koshinage's in your testing now?
Best always,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:54 AM   #11
bkedelen
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

kokyunage = T3H D34DLY
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:52 PM   #12
Hanna B
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
There may be something to the "advanced" argument since the Aikikai Hombu grading sheet doesn't have Koshinages either or any weapons requirements. I understand that the weapons issue with the Aikikai Hombu may be a philosophical one and may not fall in the aforementioned category but the absence of Koshinage is again a noteworthy one,
Rather, I think the Hombu grading requirements contain only stuff that every shihan will teach. There are teachers out there who do not teach koshinage. Weapons, same story.

Are there lines of aikido where they do no kokyunage? If not, then I would go for the original suggestion no4
Quote:
Are kokyunages too flexible and non standard? So much so that they can't be listed on a test because they are executed so differently by the different aikikai teachers?
although that does not quite cut it either. Hombu does not regulate how to do a shihonage, why should they do that for kokyunage?

Maybe Ki Society is a good explanaion. When was the grading curriculum put on paper, and when did Tohei sensei leave? If the grading curriculum was made a few years after Tohei left, then I guess there was a "move Tohei influence away" trend at the time. After that, the loose definition of kokyunage might have prevented it from making its way into the grading curriculum.

Or maybe Tohei started putting kokyunage into his curriculum after leaving the Aikikai, just to make it different... of course I am just speculating.

Last edited by Hanna B : 11-30-2004 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:15 PM   #13
John Boswell
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Here's a question, not that I'm anybody in the wide world of Aikido, but...

Has anyone with any rank/influence ever asked the Aikikai if any "Re-evaluation" of the kyu requirements and testing requirements will be forthcoming?

Doshu only recently made a lot of high ranking promotions of people from 6th Dan to 7th. I'd be curious if this is a prelude to any other major changes in the organization?

... or should I just start another thread? Hmmm, think I'll let this one ride a day or two and try a solo thread later.

Me = all ears

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Old 11-30-2004, 04:05 PM   #14
maikerus
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Hombu does not regulate how to do a shihonage, why should they do that for kokyunage?
Is this true? Basic shihonage isn't regulated or standardized by Aikikai Hombu?

Just curious,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:15 PM   #15
DaveO
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Jorge asked:
Quote:
...that he did not consider Koshinage's to be a part of the Aikido curriculum. I wonder of any Ki Society practitioners could help me with comments on this? Do you have koshinage's in your testing now?
Jorge: Good question. At present; there is no koshinage in the ki-aikido curriculum. Why; I'm not entirely sure - though I can tell you; I'm glad - I get wrenched badly enough with what we do have without adding more nastiness.

Now; though I can't immediately find a parallel for koshinage; it seems to me that by and large when a technique or movement is not present in ki-aikido; there is another not practiced by other ryu's to compensate. For instance: kote-gaeshi. Not used in shin-shin toitsu. We use kote-oroshi instead. Very similar in execution; vastly different in dynamic.
Cheers!

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Old 12-02-2004, 03:32 PM   #16
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
I wonder of any Ki Society practitioners could help me with comments on this? Do you have koshinage's in your testing now?
Best always,
No koshinages. My understanding is that Yoshinkan does not have them either.

We do have throws related to koshinage where uke passes along a line that would be across the hip if we remained there. But we never do anything that puts our hip in the way or loads them on our hip. Our name for these throws involves either the label sudori or kokyunage.

There are kokyunage throws on our 5th and 4th kyu tests that most students can't really begin to do effectively till 1st kyu or shodan at least.

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Old 12-02-2004, 08:59 PM   #17
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
No koshinages. My understanding is that Yoshinkan does not have them either.
Yoshinkan does have them, but not in the grading syllabus.
Just like ude garame.
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Old 12-03-2004, 02:52 AM   #18
kironin
 
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

apparently not being on the syllabus means there are real differences between Australia and Canada ?

A 5th dan in Yoshinkan who is a student of an 8th dan direct student of Shioda Sensei said that they don't do them (koshinages). That's all I know.

Last edited by kironin : 12-03-2004 at 02:58 AM.

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Old 12-03-2004, 03:32 AM   #19
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Is this true? Basic shihonage isn't regulated or standardized by Aikikai Hombu?

Just curious,

--Michael
Hello Michael,

The only degree of standardization on the Aikikai's kyuu grading syllabus is the type of attack. If you take katate-dori omote, for example (which is probably the one most commonly taught first to beginners), the most basic could be the one that is the simplest to execute, or the one that most clearly shows the principles that are the building blocks of aikido. I suspect the absence of regulation is due to Kisshomaru Ueshiba's postwar influence in the Aikikai, which, it needs to be stressed, is not a 'style' of aikido.

I myself felt this most clearly when I was a pre-beginner (= kyuu grade). I trained successively under four different instructors and practised four different ways of doing katatedori shihonage. The one that was identical with the way explained in Shioda's "Dynamic Aikido" was taught by Minoru Kanetsuka, who had once been a student of Shioda Kancho, but had joined the Aikikai after graduating from Takudai. The late Rinjiro Shirata once taught a seminar in Hiroshima and he showed three different ways in the same class and I have an unpublished video where he shows many more.

So, I suspect that the "standard" will illustrate the principles, rather than a specific way of doing the technique.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-03-2004, 04:25 AM   #20
Nathan Pereira
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Re: Why no Kokyunages ?

Quote:
apparently not being on the syllabus means there are real differences between Australia and Canada ?

A 5th dan in Yoshinkan who is a student of an 8th dan direct student of Shioda Sensei said that they don't do them (koshinages). That's all I know
.

Thats interesting as we do koshinage in Yoshinkan in the UK/Europe and I have seen many Japanese instructors performing koshi aswell. Interesting to find out why this is if its true.


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