Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-04-2004, 09:04 AM   #1
Gabriel A
Location: Costa Rica
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 44
Offline
Ai symbol Lineage

HI, I have problems understanding the lineage of aikido. What I mean by this who were O sensei's students? where did they go ? Also who are the top ranking or famous aikidoka? And so on... I know this isn't a interesting question, but I feel I need this background info to understand some posts, for example "Who's your favorite akidoka?"

.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?

Regards to all

Last edited by Gabriel A : 11-04-2004 at 09:15 AM.

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 09:33 AM   #2
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Lineage

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 11:02 AM   #3
Yokaze
 
Yokaze's Avatar
Dojo: Five Dragons
Location: Sonoma State University
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 93
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

Icon courtesy of Norbert Knoll http://www.aikido-verein-hannover.de
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 11:10 AM   #4
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,844
Offline
Re: Lineage

Here's a page with some of the founder's uchideshi:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/1419/Deshi.htm

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 12:04 PM   #5
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.
Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 01:01 PM   #6
suren
Dojo: Aikido of Silicon Valley
Location: Fremont, CA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 248
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,
Yes and currently Hiroshi Isoyama is Dojo Cho in Iwama.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 04:51 PM   #7
Zato Ichi
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 129
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>
You forgot the root element, Yann.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 05:57 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Yann, nicely done!!! my aikigiggle of the day and sorely needed.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2004, 07:46 PM   #9
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.
Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,
Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain. After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility, came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications). Many factions and fragments within Aikido and even within the Aikikai.
Lineage is only as important as you make it. There are some wack jobs out there that are just making stuff up. If you think they are not credible ask about their lineage. You can check that out. Don't attack it, or you might find yourself in a fight (especially if these guys reallly are whackos). Whether or not one Uchideshi of O Sensei's is better than the other is a subjective thing. Use your best judgement.

Joe

Last edited by Joe Bowen : 11-04-2004 at 07:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 02:48 AM   #10
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Lineage

Haruo-san, Janet,

Glad to be of service. As for the root, when Jun wants all the posts to be XML complient, I will be happy to offer some suggestions! Now, that would be scary: a XML descriptio of Aikido.

*flees before he is lynched by a mob of angry aikidoka*

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 03:00 AM   #11
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: Lineage

Stan Pranin over at www.aikidojournal.com has also produced a colour poster listing the principal disciples of O Sensei.

Here`s the sample, you will need to buy it to see it full size.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/.../ch01_full.jpg

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 06:50 AM   #12
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo.
Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgement on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

Quote:
Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain.
You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.

Quote:
After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility,
My understanding is that the Ueshiba family did retain ownership.

Quote:
came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications).
That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 07:09 AM   #13
Kevin Masters
Dojo: Woodstock Aikido
Location: Mount Tremper, NY
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 85
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?
According to the archives Jun is really a professional wrestler:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=wrestler

with a very quiet breakfall:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=85

Kev.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2004, 10:47 PM   #14
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgment on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.
This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.


Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.
Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .
I've read the post. I've read the letter. Japanese society is too polite to come right out and say what's going on. So, here's my take. No disrespect intended to any parties involved. M.Saito Sensei died. H.Saito Sensei obviously, and probably not unreasonably so, expected to inherit the legacy of his father, along with the Iwama dojo cho. Since he was probably acting in that capacity while his father was still alive, that seems a reasonable expectation. However, in the Iwama area, you have at least one, and probably more, folks that had been doing Aikido before H.Saito Sensei was born. Isoyama Sensei, who is currently running Iwama dojo, is a 8th Dan, deshi of Iwama from back when O Sensei was there.
Would it be unreasonable, to turn the dojo over to a 5th Dan, (as I believe that was H.Saito Sensei rank when his father died) when you have an 8th Dan willing to assume the position? Not really. Many people talk about conspiracies to oust M.Saito Sensei, and how several folks were looking to usurp the Iwama Dojo from the Saito Family. Nonsense. Don't look past the obvious. If you're the one in charge, even with the family inheritance tradition in Japan, do you choose a 5th Dan over an 8th Dan? You'll probably tell me I'm "over-simplifying". And in a sense your right. But, the Saito family still cares for the Aiki-shrine that's probably the proper responsibility to be inherited.


Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 04:27 AM   #15
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.
I'm pretty sure I would be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 06:56 AM   #16
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would be.
Maybe, maybe not. Kisshomaru Doshu was the person behind the "opening" of aikido. He was the one with the organizational and administrative skills.

I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 07:32 AM   #17
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.
I know that he built the old Hombu dojo. I know that he taught there (that's glossing right there). But, I submit that he was not the primary (or even secondary) force behind the administration of the dojo, or the pedagogical direction. I've talked 1v1 with people that were there at the time and have no reason to doubt what they say.



Quote:
Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.
Gosh, I believe that if you'll read my posts, you'll see that I've never been in the "Saito Sensei is the teacher of the One True Way" camp. Sure, I train that way as much as I'm able and, yeah, it appears to work for me. I have never made an assertion past that.

But, if you want to understand why the situation that we currently have, with TWO aikido dojo in Iwama almost across the street from each other came about, you, IMHO, only have one foot in the boat.

Quote:
So, here's my take. <snip>
I think you have a good measure of it, but, from my sources, Hitohiro wanting to continue supporting Iwama Ryu was the real deal breaker.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 08:29 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

As much as I respect the Aikikai organization and the Ueshiba family, nah, I don't think so. Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization did and does quite well. And having a Japanese 7th dan in your home town trumps the founder's son in Tokyo, in my personal experience. No disrespect, just the way it was for me.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 08:59 AM   #19
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.
I'm in Shodokan, and with all due respect to Ueshiba K., I really dont think so.

Sean
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 09:52 AM   #20
Gabriel A
Location: Costa Rica
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 44
Offline
Re: Lineage

Hi, thanx to all for your responses... sorry for taking so long I was away for the weekend.

Jun, thanx for the links.... by the way, why did you quit? how did you come upon aikido?
Pls note that my question are bades on curiosity and not on disrespect.
Regards to all

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 10:35 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

Quote:
why did you quit?
Wrestling? He never wrestled 'professionally' that I know of...he has the same name as a professional wrestler, so we like to kid him about it. Hard to tell if you are new here.

Ron (he'll have to say how he found aikido...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 10:39 AM   #22
Gabriel A
Location: Costa Rica
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 44
Offline
Re: Lineage

OHhhh ... so the wrestling is a "joke" ?

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 02:16 PM   #23
Gabriel A
Location: Costa Rica
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 44
Offline
Re: Lineage

By the way , Hi Ron how are you doing? Hope all is well!!
Regards Gabriel

GREAT MINDS HAVE PURPOSES, OTHERS HAVE WISHES"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 02:34 PM   #24
MikeE
 
MikeE's Avatar
Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Lineage

Huh. Coming originally from Aikikai and now in a Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido lineaged style...I never thought of thanking Ueshiba K. for helping make Tohei K. head off away from the Aikikai

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 02:40 PM   #25
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Lineage

My thought is that the popularization provided by the Aikikai was needed to provide the critical mass that aikido needed to propagate in a significant way.

Organizational lines, points in history of diversation, etc, don't factor in.

But, hey, maybe I've been delving too much into Chaos lately.

Best,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lineage JayRhone General 5 10-20-2005 01:25 AM
Aikido Lineage Chart David Yap General 15 01-21-2005 02:23 AM
Lineage Question: Tenshin Osaka aikido_diver General 0 01-15-2005 05:06 AM
Lineage Chris Birke General 32 12-30-2003 06:39 PM
Lineage Erik General 12 08-22-2001 10:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:27 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate