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Old 11-11-2004, 02:07 PM   #1
stern9631
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Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Does anyone practice presence attacks while training?
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:08 PM   #2
aikidoc
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Define "presence attacks"
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:03 PM   #3
mj
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Is it like kneeling blindfolded and someone sneaks up behind you to attack you with a sword?

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Old 11-11-2004, 05:11 PM   #4
maikerus
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

I just don't get it. Maybe its when you are sitting there blindfolded contemplating the universe and Santa's elves start pelting you with "presents". ;-)

I did read a *fiction* book once where the main character was learning some Aikido from a father and his daughter and part of the training was they'd hide behind doorways and beat him with a jo if he walked in without his spider sense tingling. But I've never heard of this in real life.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:14 PM   #5
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

I would define a presence attack as some sort of behavior, maybe a kiai, that would strike fear or reason into an opponent. Some form of posturing. You know, like pounding your chest!!
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:38 PM   #6
maikerus
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I would define a presence attack as some sort of behavior, maybe a kiai, that would strike fear or reason into an opponent. Some form of posturing. You know, like pounding your chest!!
I do know people - and I am not admitting to being part of this - who have gone into the woods to practice kiai's and shouting at the top of their lungs.

We have also practiced kiai's in class and worked on our kamae to making it subtly more "fear inspiring". We usually use Takeno Sensei as the role model to emulate for this.

Part of kamae and doing techniques in a Yoshinkan fashion is to stay straight and appear confident - kind of sticking your chest out a bit. Bending over and slouching the shoulders is heavily frowned upon. This has the effect of improving your presence.

When we do demo training part of the thing we were taught was to make sure that we had a really good, strong kiai right from the start. The idea was that people get bored watching demos and if your kiai was good enough it will shut everyone in the budokan up and snap their attention back to you. Of course...then you have to perform with everyone watching you and not just half or a quarter of them. But it is part of improving your own presence.

As instructor-wannabe's we were taught how the warm-ups are very important in the beginning of class because the warm-ups set the tone for the whole training session. If you lead the warm-ups without any spirit and in a bored fashion...that's the kind of class you'll get. If you can put alot of energy into your warm-ups then you'll get an energetic class. Again...a presence thing.

I don't know if this matches what you were asking, but it is training on one's own presence.

--Michael (who still likes the idea of elves pelting him with presents )

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:49 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I would define a presence attack as some sort of behavior, maybe a kiai, that would strike fear or reason into an opponent. Some form of posturing. You know, like pounding your chest!!
I've been known to growl loudly, give the schoolmarm stare of death, orstart at a distance and stalk nage saying "I'm going to hit you now." ...of course, my favorite kiai is one arm straight up and yelling "TAXI!", which never fails to bring my dojo practice partner to his knees, laughing.....

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:35 AM   #8
Bridge
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

How about if practice partner is expecting e.g. tsuki attack, and you haven't actually done anything yet (except very vaguely twitch) and they've gone off into half the taisabaki bit already (usually tenkan).

Does that count? It happens sometimes with the guys I practice with so ocaasionally I do it deliberately for a laugh.
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:54 AM   #9
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
I've been known to growl loudly, give the schoolmarm stare of death
Janet you've been told about this more than once. Secret teachings should not be devulged on the net.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:27 AM   #10
ian
 
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

John Stevens book on 'sword or no-sword' - the life of sword master Tessu is an excellent read and one of Tessu's main points is to extend the feeling of presence towards the opponent. I think it is an integral part of aikido to have this feeling of 'domination' over your opponent - to make contact with the uke we have to project forward into them mentally as well (and then once contact is made we can move with them if they respond in an agresive manner). I think paired bokken work is good for developing this feeling since you need to be very positive in order to maintain your posture and not be driven back. However I think 'extending your presence' is only achievable when you have some ability; I think of it as a confidence in your ability to deal with the situation, and if this is a bluff and your bluff is called it is very difficult to maintain that presence.
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:32 AM   #11
ian
 
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

P.S. saying all this, feigning weakness is also a good strategy if you want to encourage an attack (changing your apparent character is a strategy Musashi seems to have employed regularly). I was reading recently about a swordsman who could disarm people without having to use any weapons (200 yrs ago?) and he used to slouch like a gorrilla to encourage an attack, and then move in very quickly.

- I've also had the experience of using a loud shout to (temporarily) stop a fight; and it is amazing how succesful it can be (I couldn't reach the people 'cos it was a crowded pub). Don't underestimate the ability of shouting to frighten people!
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Old 11-12-2004, 06:35 AM   #12
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I would define a presence attack as some sort of behavior, maybe a kiai, that would strike fear or reason into an opponent. Some form of posturing. You know, like pounding your chest!!
Your examples are very crude ones (ie. pounding ones chest). I think what you are refrring to would be called "woofing" by Peyton Quinn the writer of self defense books and head of Rocky Mountain Combat Applications.

If we aren't talking about scenarios out of bars, then all interactions between the partners in Aikido should contain this aspect of communication. The idea is to control the interaction before it even starts. I can usually tell if I am going to be able to hit someone before I throw the strike by how they project their "presence" outwards at me.

You can effect your partner before physical contact by changing how you project your focus torwards him.You can shut down an attack for an instant by a well timed and focused ki-ai. This should be part of Aikido training; it's one of the main things you are learning. All attacks are "presence attacks" and all defenses are "presence defenses".

When you take this aspect out of the training you are doing hollow movement with no intention.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 11-12-2004, 06:51 AM   #13
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The idea is to control the interaction before it even starts. I can usually tell if I am going to be able to hit someone before I throw the strike by how they project their "presence" outwards at me.

You can effect your partner before physical contact by changing how you project your focus towards him.
Interesting point George. When I do Judo or Aikido randori I know who will dominate before any contact is made. This cuts in both directions of course, ranging from this suckers mine to I'm going to die.

<esoteric aikido talk alert>

For me this is the core of the Budo I practice. To develop a mindset where the latter happens less and the former more. Personally it seems to work better when I adopt what the French refer to as saig froid. No posturing, no yelling, just doing the business.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:35 AM   #14
Nathan Pereira
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Micheal,

Takeno sensei's kamae eh.

which one , "the attack and you'll wish you hadn't" one or the "if you get up and try that again you'll be really sorry" one.
I personally like his "I double dare you to stab me with that knife" kamae.


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Old 11-12-2004, 08:29 AM   #15
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
...of course, my favorite kiai is one arm straight up and yelling "TAXI!", which never fails to bring my dojo practice partner to his knees, laughing.....
That's great, Janet! I'll have to try that next time...sounds effective.
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:47 AM   #16
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Janet, what about that jodo kiai you showed me the other day? "Yiiiip!"

Sensei tells me that sometimes when we are standing, waiting for the attack, we have such presence that he won't attack because he's already been defeated. Considering he's twice my size i must be putting out some kind of confidence i sure ain't feeling!

i make claws at nage sometimes, usually they laugh at me.

Q
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Old 11-12-2004, 09:53 AM   #17
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Extend Ki

or better

Ki is extending


that contains it all if you understand the short-hand.

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Old 11-12-2004, 10:47 AM   #18
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Freaky! Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
I do know people - and I am not admitting to being part of this - who have gone into the woods to practice kiai's and shouting at the top of their lungs.
If you Kiai at the top of your lungs in the woods and noone is around to hear you, do you make a sound?


Carl Bilodeau
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Old 11-12-2004, 11:49 AM   #19
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Extend Ki

or better

Ki is extending


that contains it all if you understand the short-hand.
Isn't the phrase, "Ki is Extended"?

Luke: "I can't see anything with this blast shield down". Adjusts helmet.

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Old 11-12-2004, 03:35 PM   #20
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Isn't the phrase, "Ki is Extended"?
Extended sounds like you are done not doing...

I prefer something that gives the impression that the process is ongoing.

not past tense but a state of being in the this moment NOW.


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Old 11-12-2004, 08:33 PM   #21
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

At a seminar, Clarence Chinn sensei of SoCal Ki Society had us try to make a kata tori attack (grab for the shoulder) in such a way that nage would edge backwards reflexively. This is quite tough, because kata tori is not intrinsically all that scary. It can be done, though. Sensei could do it consistently--lots of puzzled frowns as his partners tried to figure out how.

My observation was that the outcome was decided before uke even moved. Both participants quickly learned to predict whether an attack would make nage back up or not, and if the elusive quality was not present initially, ki-ai, fierce faces, growling, and even stomping on nage's toes were not going to change the outcome.

I couldn't do this consistently, but I thought that when it did work, it didn't have to do with aggression per se, but with a kind of physical intent to move through nage's space rather than just up to it.

("Presence attack," hm? How many points does a die of that cost nowadays?)

Mary Kaye
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Old 11-13-2004, 05:37 PM   #22
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Extended sounds like you are done not doing...

I prefer something that gives the impression that the process is ongoing.

not past tense but a state of being in the this moment NOW.

Reply posted as new thread
Ki is Extended. in Spiritual Forum.

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Old 11-14-2004, 09:53 PM   #23
maikerus
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Nathan Pereira wrote:
Micheal,

Takeno sensei's kamae eh.

which one , "the attack and you'll wish you hadn't" one or the "if you get up and try that again you'll be really sorry" one.
I personally like his "I double dare you to stab me with that knife" kamae.
The one I remember most is the "if you even twitch you'll be very, very sorry" kamae." Which is usually followed by the "if you don't attack now you'll be even sorrier" kamae.

Sometimes there are no choices. <grin>

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Old 11-14-2004, 10:12 PM   #24
maikerus
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
You can effect your partner before physical contact by changing how you project your focus torwards him.You can shut down an attack for an instant by a well timed and focused ki-ai. This should be part of Aikido training; it's one of the main things you are learning.
George...very good point. It is one of the most important things we are studying and is, perhaps, the essence of Aikido. It also goes hand in hand with the feeling of awareness we have walking down the street or knowing where the fire exits are in a building. Basically, always finding a way to be in control of a situation or a place.

We often speak of how to take control of the attack away from uke. Often this is done with moving slightly to change balance, or by moving closer or further away to change the strength of uke's strike...or whatever...something physical.

This is the same thing, but on a more subtle level and I am curious as to how you "teach" it as opposed to "discuss" it with people who have already have had the experience and know what to look for and what we're talking about.

Are there any specific drills or exercises anyone does to focus on training this particular skill? I realize that we want to make it prevelant in all our techniques, but I am looking to see if there are specific drills anyone uses for this concept (which goes back to the original postings question, I suppose).

I had one instructor who would demonstrate the shutting down of an attack by a "well timed and focused ki-ai" but to practice that loses it's impact since we knew it was coming and could push through it...or ignore it.

Any thoughts?

--Michael

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Old 11-15-2004, 04:29 AM   #25
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Does anyone practice presence attacks?

Quote:
Jonathan Thielen wrote:
That's great, Janet! I'll have to try that next time...sounds effective.
This is funny but it's a very real concept... One of the things you learn about doing a move like a gun takeaway when confronted on the street is to ask the assailant a nonsense question just as you make your move. Something like "Did you puck up your dry cleaning yet?" This serves to set up a loop in the assailant's mind that goes something like "What?" "What the hell does he mean dry Cleaning?" "I didn't have any dry cleaning..." He doesn't get farther than this because by this time you've made your move. It's a small thing but it serves to slow the assailant's reaction down just a fraction because his "processor" is oeverloading for an instant trying to answer this question that doesn't really have an answer.

George S. Ledyard
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