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Old 11-15-2004, 02:41 PM   #26
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
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Re: attacking?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Shomenuchi is not a realistic attack, but a training affect to help you understand the principles.
Out of curiousity, why would you say that? My experience on the street has indicated it is one of the best. The only problem is to make sure not to hit too hard or you might crack the skull if you hit the fontanel or temple. I found it works wonderfully as a counter to jabs and crosses or all sorts of kicks and tackles. When used in conjunction with ikkyo, it is one of the most difficult attacks to counter and tends to stop a fight very quickly.

Rock
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:22 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: attacking?

Why?

I can think of many things I'd find more effective than classic shomenuchi. Sure, all the elements of a proper attack are there if you do it correctly. However, the way it is traditionally practiced as a telegraphic attack with your hand raised over your head, is what I was referring to. The way I think of it...Shomenuchi is a training affect.

I would imagine what you are reffering to would be maybe a hammer fist? I would have to work with you to see what you are talking about. If it works for you...go for it!
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:40 PM   #28
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
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Re: attacking?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Why?

I can think of many things I'd find more effective than classic shomenuchi. Sure, all the elements of a proper attack are there if you do it correctly. However, the way it is traditionally practiced as a telegraphic attack with your hand raised over your head, is what I was referring to. The way I think of it...Shomenuchi is a training affect.

I would imagine what you are reffering to would be maybe a hammer fist? I would have to work with you to see what you are talking about. If it works for you...go for it!
Actually, I did mean with Shomenuchi as traditionally practiced. However, I don't find it telegraphic since if done correctly, it should be done as aiuchi. If the person does block it, as I hope they do, it flows directly into ikkyo. Generally, I tend to ask all Yudansha above Nidan to do shomenuchi ikkyo with nage initiating the ikkyo through shomenuchi. Just like I ask them to initiate yokomenuchi techniques with nage doing the yokomenuchi.

As a strike that comes off the back foot rather than the front, it requires the person defending against shomenuchi to move angularly rather than linearly or laterally. As such it is not as easy to defend against than an attack that comes off the front foot and hand due to its extremely long reach and ability to execute a second technique that also covers a long distance.

As for telegraphing, if it is done as aiuchi, it really doesn't matter. I found that while it is a very difficult technique to master, shomenuchi is the strongest attack very much like in Kendo. It is much easier in Kendo to get a point with a Koteuchi but once Menuchi is mastered, it is a much stronger attack. The commitment to the attack must be there and the person being attacked must be read carefully for the point of vulnerability but if Menuchi is done correctly, it cannot be stopped unless the person taking the Menuchi is able to join with the attack. I think that is why O'Sensei stressed Shomenuchi so much. The only way to stop a well-timed and committed Shomenuchi attack is to join with the attack, and that is very difficult to do. Likewise in Kendo at the higher levels, the best defense for a well-timed Menuchi attack is Aiuchi Men.

Shomenuchi is so important, as well, since it is the basis for almost all the other attacks including Yokomenuchi, Morotetori, Katatetori, all the Ushiro attacks, the Shimewaza attacks, Katatori and Munedori attacks, Tsuki, Maigeri, etc. They all have their basis in Shomenuchi.

Just finished class, in fact, where we did a Shomenuchi defense to a Jodan Tsuki before converting it to Iriminage.

Rock
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:01 AM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: attacking?

Agree with everything you say. In fact, this is how I have been trained and believe it to be the right way.

I guess it is probably semantics more than anything else.

From my perspective, so many other things happen in a real fight such as timing, feinting, jabs, hooks, kicks etc...that you never really get to a "classic" position such as shomenuchi as typically seen in the dojo. That doesn't mean that it is wrong or incorrect in the mechanics...just things typically move in smaller circles if you will. You still need to align correct posture, use your hips, and "cock" just happens "tighter and faster".

I for the most part really use hand techniques these days as a set up to off balance so I never really commit, but then again, I work with alot of inexperienced fighters and certainly things change when you get someone of greater skill.

Certainly as you describe it the mechanics are there and what you say is 100% correct, but obviously at your level you don't need me to validate that!

Great post.
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:27 PM   #30
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
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Re: attacking?

I am still often proven wrong and still have much to learn. That is why I am here and still asking questions. Every year I look back on myself and see how little I knew the last year. What will next year bring?

Rock
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