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Old 11-15-2004, 09:12 AM   #26
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Neil you are absolutely nuts, even Kerry's lawyers have said publically that the election was legit and that they had no chance of winning.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:28 AM   #27
Taliesin
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Dan

To have an unshakable belief in democracy it helps to believe you are in a Democracy not a Corporate Oligarchy(big word) or Plutocracy. To get support in democracy you need to have something that is clearly recognizable as a democracy - not something that has the trappings. That means that votes alone do not make a democracy - a respect for the rule of law is also integral (something GWB is not to keen on) you also need a position where it is believed that all voters are equal and the representative exercises his judgment as to when is best on balance for everyone not the just what is best for those who spent most money buying the candidate (Iraqi Oil, drilling in Alaska anyone???)
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:47 PM   #28
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Neil you are absolutely nuts, even Kerry's lawyers have said publically that the election was legit and that they had no chance of winning.
[sarcasm on]
Of course: it's all above-board--Kerry's signing-off means that nothing needs to be investigated (one Ohio county having 3400 ppl voting for Bush, in a county of 660); that NOTHING happened worth investigating, etc ad nauseum. [/sarcasm off]

Coming from someone who crowed "GO USA, LET'S ROLL!" the day after the invasion (i.e., YOU), I am stunningly unsurprised, at your response.

If God's entire staff came down and announced the totality of Bush's crimes: no doubt you'd be unimpressed, unless it were reported on Fox, CNN, et al.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:26 PM   #29
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Neil, you really make no sense. You are so rabid in your anti-Bush agenda and propaganda that you find all kinds of conspiracies where there arent any. You have no credibility in what you say.

The simple fact is that if there were significant voter irregularities in Ohio, Kerry's lawyers would have gone after them like mad dogs. Not only Kerry, but Kerry's lawyers, most of the Democratic Party, and even the liberal Kerry supporting media have conceded that Bush won the election. Get over it already, you lost.

I say by all means investigate away. However, at the end all you will have is your typical venom to spit and no real evidence of anything.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:01 PM   #30
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Neil, you really make no sense. You are so rabid in your anti-Bush agenda and propaganda that you find all kinds of conspiracies where there arent any. You have no credibility in what you say.
Of course not. No, the links I posted earlier in this thread were just smoke & mirrors...no validity to them, at all.

Of course, the empirical evidence is mounting that the exit-poll/Bush-voter discrepancy is HIGHEST with e-voter touch-screen systems, but of course that is SHEER coincidence.

BTW, Michael: how ARE those wmd-searches coming along? Found any, yet?

Quote:
The simple fact is that if there were significant voter irregularities in Ohio, Kerry's lawyers would have gone after them like mad dogs.
Wrong. As kerry was deciding whether or not to throw in the towel, the stock market was plummeting. His concession changed that. I'm sure that his backers had some input into his decision. Likely, they put pressure on him, and he caved...waay early, IMO.

Quote:
Not only Kerry, but Kerry's lawyers, most of the Democratic Party,
Listen, when this story is still the hottest underreported topic 6 months from now, you come back and tout your expansive knowledge again, OK?

BTW: have you gotten that new dance down yet? You know: the "Iraqi 'Cakewalk?'" I hear that the Pentagon's having problems with that one, too... :P

Quote:
and even the liberal Kerry supporting media have conceded that Bush won the election.
"Liberal media?" Repeat after me: JUST SAY NO---drugs can do horrible things to a person's life.

Please. The "Liberal media" (myth, that it is...and I defy you to prove otherwise) was hardly "kind" to Kerry. I have plenty of documentation to prove this.

Quote:
Get over it already, you lost.
"I" lost, the moment Kerry won over Kucinich. It has nothing to do with winning or losing: it has to do with noticing a pattern, and following your instincts...which, you might do yourself, if you were not so biased in the other direction.

I could well say: get over it--YOU lost (as did most American's).

Quote:
by all means investigate away. However, at the end all you will have is your typical venom to spit and no real evidence of anything.
If you even bothered to read up on the link I posted for www.blackboxvoting.org , you'd have found evidence growing out like kudzu.

But, please: go back to sleep, Michael. Nothing to see here. Everything's fine: the election wasn't tampered, and your President loves you. Whatever sleepytime myths get you through the day.

In the meantime: don your little flag-baseball-cap, gather round the TV-hearth, and cheer out "Let's roll!" as if this were some sort of football game, the next time you hear (or, don't hear) the latest casualty statistics in Iraq. I'm sure that mindless cheerleading is your forte no matter what the news, so why not just be yourself? Certainly, it makes for an easier life (until, of course, the inevitable bill comes due).
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Old 11-15-2004, 11:13 PM   #31
dan guthrie
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But, this election was fine: no problems at all.

Kerry Won: Here Are The Facts



Yep, just a typical fair & clean election, in the good old, democratic USA.

Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked
_____________________________________

This is the original source for the Dick Morris quotation:

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=15821

"Quote:
So far, the only national "mainstream" media to come close to this story was Keith Olbermann on his show Friday night, November 5th, when he noted that it was curious that all the voting machine irregularities so far uncovered seem to favor Bush. In the meantime, the Washington Post and other media are now going through single-bullet-theory-like contortions to explain how the exit polls had failed.

But I agree with Fox's Dick Morris on this one, at least in large part. Wrapping up his story for The Hill, Morris wrote in his final paragraph, "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play." "

___________________________


Just in case anyone is confused, Morris' contention is that the exit polling was wrong, not that the election was corrupt. The "foul play" he's referring to was the exit polls.
The way the quotation reads may lead one to the exact opposite conclusion that Morris intended but IS the intended conclusion of the commondreams.org article.

I think commondreams was being ironic when it used Morris' words.

If any election laws were broken, I hope there are indictments and lengthy prison times. Only a few months to go before the electoral college meets and we'll see who's correct. I'm not aware of anyone being charged or arrested but I could be wrong.

Last edited by dan guthrie : 11-15-2004 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 11-15-2004, 11:24 PM   #32
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
If any election laws were broken, I hope there are indictments and lengthy prison times. Only a few months to go.
Yes.
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Old 11-15-2004, 11:56 PM   #33
dan guthrie
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Dan

To have an unshakable belief in democracy it helps to believe you are in a Democracy not a Corporate Oligarchy(big word) or Plutocracy. To get support in democracy you need to have something that is clearly recognizable as a democracy - not something that has the trappings. That means that votes alone do not make a democracy - a respect for the rule of law is also integral (something GWB is not to keen on) you also need a position where it is believed that all voters are equal and the representative exercises his judgment as to when is best on balance for everyone not the just what is best for those who spent most money buying the candidate (Iraqi Oil, drilling in Alaska anyone???)
I don't think we live in a perfect society. I also don't think we live in a Plutocracy, either. Corporations don't always get their way. Enron collapsed and it's management is going to prison. Boeing is today's focus of corporate wrongdoing and someone's probably going to jail. Even lowly Martha Stewart is in the Big House for lying to the government.

In California we have a new governor. He was selected over the wishes of the sitting Democratic governor in a solidly blue state. That's democracy in action.
I would never try to prove it's perfect. That would be insane.
On the other hand, I think it's a very, very difficult argument to prove it's in "meltdown" over one rather sizable victory for the Republicans (if you count the gains in the Senate).

This voter meltdown proclamation is wishful (dreadful?) thinking, IMHO. I'm underwhelmed by the links presented so far. In a few months we'll know for sure.


Until someone's indicted I'm going to avoid commenting on this subject. Carry on, but this is a waste of time.
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:27 PM   #34
vanstretch
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Re: Voter Meltdown

http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heros/heros.htm
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:29 PM   #35
vanstretch
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Re: Voter Meltdown

www.Remeber the Blood of Heros.com
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Old 11-16-2004, 03:26 PM   #36
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
This voter meltdown proclamation is wishful (dreadful?) thinking, IMHO. I'm underwhelmed by the links presented so far. In a few months we'll know for sure.
It's only Nov. 16th: were you expecting a full-bore indictment, so soon?

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/10133265.htm

http://video.msn.com/video/p.htm?t=1...a-557ee89f4bb1

Please, these stories keep filtering in, in spite of the mainstream-media blackout.

And, anything discounted by Ann Coulter, that attack-poodle of the Right, DEFINITELY deserves a 2nd look.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200411160006

Quote:
In her November 11 nationally syndicated column, right-wing pundit Ann Coulter falsely asserted that Olbermann has been "peddling the theory that Bush stole the election" and referred to "Olbermann's idiotic conspiracy theory." A November 14 column by associate editor Bill Steigerwald in the conservative Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (owned by right-wing financier Richard Mellon Scaife) claimed Olbermann "really made a Dan Rather of himself" by focusing a segment of MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann on allegations of voter fraud. And in his November 10 "Inside Politics" column, Washington Times columnist Greg Pierce quoted the conservative Media Research Center's analysis of Olbermann's coverage:

"With 'Did Your Vote Count? The Plot Thickens' as his on-screen header, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann on Monday night led his 'Countdown' program with more than 15 straight minutes of paranoid and meaningless claims about voting irregularities in states won by President Bush," the Media Research Center reports at www.mediaresearch.org.

But Olbermann has not suggested that the election was stolen. Discussing the possible causes of the bevy of reported voting irregularities from around the country, Olbermann offered this analysis on the November 10 edition of Countdown:

There are really only three possible explanations for all of this. The first is hoped for virtually unanimously by supporters of every candidate and every party -- namely, that all those elected last Tuesday got in because that's the way the people voted. The second is that some of them got in through manipulation of a series of insufficiently sophisticated, insufficiently secure computer voting machines that might be hacked into by the nearest 9-year-old. But the third possibility is actually more heart-stopping still, one that threatens the democracy in the way 100 terrorist rings could not -- that the president or the District 90 dog catcher or other Republicans or other Democrats were elected because a series of insufficiently sophisticated, insufficiently secure computer voting machines was affected by bad design, bad use, damp ballots, power surges, and/or static cling.

Quote:
Until someone's indicted I'm going to avoid commenting on this subject. Carry on, but this is a waste of time.
You already have, commented on this subject. And, I for one am overwhelmingly unsurprised, as to your response. You've already weighed in your opinion.

Go on, nothing to see--not important. But if it were me, I for one would welcome an investigation in light of the widespread allegations. Don't you want to know why there was--suddenly--discrepancies btw the exit-polls and the results, when Bush started running in the nat'l elections?

Nah, it's far, far easier to pooh-pooh the efforts to find out if our election was hacked, or not. Back to sleep, with you. It doesn't matter, of course: unless you've seen it on CNN.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 11-16-2004 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:04 PM   #37
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Jeez...even reading about the attempt to recount, is like reading a detective-story...it just gets better n' better...

Quote:
Black Box Voting began to compare the special printouts given in the FOIA request with the signed polling tapes from election night. Lo and behold, some were missing. By this time, Black Box Voting investigator Andy Stephenson had joined the group at Volusia County. Some polling place tapes didn't match. In fact, in one location, precinct 215, an African-American precinct, the votes were off by hundreds, in favor of George W. Bush and other Republicans.

Hmm. Which was right? The polling tape Volusia gave to Black Box Voting, specially printed on Nov. 15, without signatures, or the ones with signatures, printed on Nov. 2, with up to 8 signatures per tape?

Well, then it became even more interesting. A Volusia employee boxed up some items from an office containing Lana Hires' desk, which appeared to contain -- you guessed it -- polling place tapes. The employee took them to the back of the building and disappeared.
(full story)
www.blackboxvoting.org
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:49 PM   #38
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Woohoo!

Ohio To Go Through Statewide Vote Recount After All

Quote:
A statewide recount of the presidential vote appears inevitable after a pair of third-party candidates said they have collected enough money to pay for it.

The recount would be conducted after the election results are certified in early December.

Libertarian Michael Badnarik and the Green Party's David Cobb said on Monday they raised more than $150,000 in four days, mostly in small contributions.

Ohio law requires payment of $10 per precinct for a recount, or $113,600 statewide.

Badnarik and Cobb said they aren't trying to overturn President Bush's 136,000-vote victory in Ohio, but just want to ensure that all votes were counted properly in the face of concerns about Election Day irregularities.

"Our bottom line is to stand up for the integrity of the voting process because the voting process is the heart of the democratic process," said Blair Bobier, spokesman for Cobb.

Bobier said it will be worth the price to ensure the final outcome can be trusted.
Naysayers, you can now proceed to eat your hakama's (gi's will do as well)!
If a third-party coughing up the bucks to get a recount in Ohio isn't newsworthy: well then, what is...?
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:52 PM   #39
Timi Cone
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Hey Neil ------ Ya REALLY think it's gonna matter??????
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Old 11-22-2004, 08:33 AM   #40
Taliesin
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Of course it MATTERS - Whether it makes a difference is something else entirely
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Old 11-29-2004, 08:18 AM   #41
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Ok, Neil keep believing in you stupid conspiracies. It is sad to see someone waste so much of their life on such crap.
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Old 11-29-2004, 11:26 AM   #42
Taliesin
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Michael

Are you saying that Democracy is Crap. In which case try saying that in the Ukraine. or are you saying it's stupid to believe that GWB could have secured the election by fraud. In which case you don't remember your history very well.
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Old 11-29-2004, 12:45 PM   #43
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Really, what history is that? I certainly don't remember GWB being elected by fraud? You really need some CREDIBLE evidence to back such claims. Just because a few third party candidates in Ohio want a recount does not mean there was fraud on behalf of GWB. And some left wing organizations crying foul is not evidence either.

If there are legitimate isssues then lets hear them, I want to see them work though the legal system to establish their validity. But no, the lawyers already said there was nothing there.

You guys can claim all you want that the election was a fraud but that is not evidence of anything, except maybe the ugliness of extreme leftists and their propaganda.

And Neil, I know you have a weak argument but don't make it so obvious by trying to changes the subject to WMDs and a statement I made before the liberation of Iraq, what do those things have to do with the current topic? "Smoke and mirrors", you know that tactic well.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 11-29-2004 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 11-29-2004, 03:36 PM   #44
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Ok, Neil keep believing in you stupid conspiracies. It is sad to see someone waste so much of their life on such crap.
You can depend upon a few things in life: you can depend upon the sun to rise, for voters to vote against their interests, and you can depend upon Michael Neal to come online and rant no-brain platitudes, lacking any merit or substance.

It's almost like a clock, in its mechanical regularity....
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Old 11-29-2004, 03:37 PM   #45
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
And Neil, I know you have a weak argument but don't make it so obvious by trying to changes the subject to WMDs and a statement I made before the liberation of Iraq, what do those things have to do with the current topic? "Smoke and mirrors", you know that tactic well.
It's called "discussion of a different topic." Mayhap you've heard of it? More precisely: read. the. forum. topic.

Next.
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Old 11-29-2004, 07:55 PM   #46
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
You can depend upon a few things in life: you can depend upon the sun to rise, for voters to vote against their interests, and you can depend upon Michael Neal to come online and rant no-brain platitudes, lacking any merit or substance.

It's almost like a clock, in its mechanical regularity....
Yep, that is another way of escaping from your original losing argument.
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Old 11-29-2004, 09:03 PM   #47
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Yep, that is another way of escaping from your original losing argument.
ROFL, you're too much, sometimes. Um, nooo: it's neither an escape, nor is it an argument (and in point of fact, Michael: you're one to talk. BTW, you STILL didn't answer the question--how ARE those wmd's coming along in Iraq? Turn up anything yet? Certainly, nothing that justifies $200+ B and 1400+ American lives, I imagine).

But let me break it down so that even a knee-jerk, cheerleading Fox-viewer can understand:

1. During and before the election, there were widespread claims of voters getting turned away. The 866-OUR-VOTE ppl stated that they received calls in the 10's of thousands of ppl calling in about

a. Ppl coming to their houses, claiming that they "don't have to go to the polls on 11/2,;, they can just cast their vote, with them;

b. Lines as long as 6hours, in mostly Af-Am neighborhoods;
c. Optical-scan machines that would vote repeatedly for the wrong (i.e., Republican) candidate (some, as many as 6x in a row);

c. Old machines in Af-Am neighborhoods, and not enough voting machines in these areas (typically, the # was 1/2 the required amount);

d. systematic refusal of some polling places to allow polling inspectors to watch the ballot-collection process (this, I might remind you, is in most places, the LAW);

e. In one particular Ohio precinct: the voting officials claimed that they received a "level 10" (the highest) terror-threat from the OHS and the FBI and proceeded to lock down the place during the ballot-counting, even tho both OHS and the FBI stated that they issued no such warning;

f. Widespread disenfranchisement of Af-Am voters in Florida (notably Broward Cty) and Ohio;

g. The near complete mainstream media blackout on this story, even tho (see above references) there was MORE than enough grist for the mill, before 11/2, for further investigation. Doesn't this fact ALONE make you pause? Nah, probably not, because FoxNews hasn't told you, to pause.

Even IF there wasn't enough shenanigan's to tilt the election, Michael: don't you want to be assured that Bush won, fair and square? Do you REALLY want to go on, day to day, not knowing whether the vote was cooked or not?

Or do you simply want to nod and mindlessly take in whatever the mainstream says is acceptable...?

On second thought: don't bother answering, I think I already know the answer...

I mean (and I'm addressing both Timi AND Michael, here), here we are, pooh-pooh'ing the Ukranian election on this side of the Pacific...why? Because their exit-polls don't match up with their endf-result!

Oh, COME ON! Are you both trruly BLIND to the hypocrisy of this statement? Or is it just that you're both satisfied with the result, and the "ends justify the means?"

Last edited by Neil Mick : 11-29-2004 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 11-30-2004, 12:12 PM   #48
Michael Neal
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Quote:
ROFL, you're too much, sometimes. Um, nooo: it's neither an escape, nor is it an argument (and in point of fact, Michael: you're one to talk. BTW, you STILL didn't answer the question--how ARE those wmd's coming along in Iraq? Turn up anything yet? Certainly, nothing that justifies $200+ B and 1400+ American lives, I imagine).
Neil, why should I answer the damn question? It has nothing to do with this topic. By answering it I would allow you to change the subject to something else.

Quote:
But let me break it down so that even a knee-jerk, cheerleading Fox-viewer can understand:
WTF does Fox news have to do with the discussion?

Quote:
1. During and before the election, there were widespread claims of voters getting turned away. The 866-OUR-VOTE ppl stated that they received calls in the 10's of thousands of ppl calling in about

a. Ppl coming to their houses, claiming that they "don't have to go to the polls on 11/2,;, they can just cast their vote, with them;
"widespread claims," "claiming" etc is not evidence Neil. If these are legitimate issues then the legal system should sort them out.

Quote:
b. Lines as long as 6hours, in mostly Af-Am neighborhoods;
c. Optical-scan machines that would vote repeatedly for the wrong (i.e., Republican) candidate (some, as many as 6x in a row);

c. Old machines in Af-Am neighborhoods, and not enough voting machines in these areas (typically, the # was 1/2 the required amount);
First you blame the new machines then you blame the old machines then you blame there were not enough of them, contradictions to go around. How did the lines get so long? Did Republicans get volunteers to stand in line to clog them up? The truth is that all lines were long that day, to say that they were longer in af-am communities as part of a Republican conspiracy is funny, please prove it Neil, making a claim is not enough. Why did Kerry's lawyers not have a field day with this if it were true? If there were not enough machines in af-am communities then maybe the af-am election board officials for that precinct are to blame not the so called "Right Wing Conspiracy."

A problem at some precinct does not automatically equal a Republican conspiracy to suppress the vote. There were problems at Republican precincts as well, even mine.

Quote:
d. systematic refusal of some polling places to allow polling inspectors to watch the ballot-collection process (this, I might remind you, is in most places, the LAW);
BS, The only time I saw any evidence of this was when the Republican Party had to sue to be allowed to do this exact thing in Ohio, evidence that the Democrats were trying to disallow inspectors.

Quote:
e. In one particular Ohio precinct: the voting officials claimed that they received a "level 10" (the highest) terror-threat from the OHS and the FBI and proceeded to lock down the place during the ballot-counting, even tho both OHS and the FBI stated that they issued no such warning;
If it were true it would be grounds for legal action but it would have to be true. There were simlar reports about Democrats pulling similar schemes. I am also sure you think it was a conspiracy orchestrated by John Ascroft or something.

Quote:
f. Widespread disenfranchisement of Af-Am voters in Florida (notably Broward Cty) and Ohio;
Really? provide evidence please.

Quote:
g. The near complete mainstream media blackout on this story, even tho (see above references) there was MORE than enough grist for the mill, before 11/2, for further investigation. Doesn't this fact ALONE make you pause? Nah, probably not, because FoxNews hasn't told you, to pause.
Maybe there was blackout on this story because it was BS, most of the "mainstream" media was supporting Kerry.

Neil, your propoganda and conspiracy theories simply do not fly.
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:46 PM   #49
Neil Mick
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Re: Voter Meltdown

I noticed, Michael: that you failed to respond to my point...

Quote:
I mean (and I'm addressing both Timi AND Michael, here), here we are, pooh-pooh'ing the Ukranian election on this side of the Pacific...why? Because their exit-polls don't match up with their endf-result!

Oh, COME ON! Are you both trruly BLIND to the hypocrisy of this statement? Or is it just that you're both satisfied with the result, and the "ends justify the means?"
Your silence is deafening.

Quote:
"widespread claims," "claiming" etc is not evidence Neil. If these are legitimate issues then the legal system should sort them out.
Give the man a cigar! That's right: "widespread claims" are NOT evidence. And you're RIGHT: the legal system SHOULD sort them out. I am so pleased that we agree. And so: you're obviously in agreement that the GAO SHOULD investigate these allegations, as it is so doing.

Excellent: we're getting somewhere.

Quote:
First you blame the new machines then you blame the old machines then you blame there were not enough of them, contradictions to go around.
One step forward: two steps back. Nope, no contradictions...except in the mind of one Michael Neal, with a rightwing-fueled axe to grind.

Old machines clog, break down easier. See the link above in www.gregpalast.com, regarding "vote spoilage."

New machines (specifically, Diebold-style optical scanners) have been showing a disturbing tendency to vote Bush, on their very own. worse, these machines are unverifiable as they do not leave a paper-trail.

I understand that the term "machine" confuses you, but not all "machines" are created equal.

Quote:
How did the lines get so long? Did Republicans get volunteers to stand in line to clog them up?
If you read the links, you'd know. Not enough poll-workers in primarily Af-Am commuities. Confusion in redistricting, with voters unsure as to where they were allowed to vote.

Quote:
The truth is that all lines were long that day, to say that they were longer in af-am communities as part of a Republican conspiracy is funny, please prove it Neil, making a claim is not enough.
I did, already. You're just too lazy to read the links.

Quote:
Kerry's lawyers not have a field day with this if it were true?
Ah, now that's the $51 million dollar question (the amount Kerry had in his treasury after the election), isn't it? Why DID he bail on his promise so soon? The only person who can say for certainly, is disturbingly quiet on the recounr issue.

Quote:
e were not enough machines in af-am communities then maybe the af-am election board officials for that precinct are to blame not the so called "Right Wing Conspiracy."
Yes, maybe they are. In Ohio, we can blame Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican secty of State.

Quote:
em at some precinct does not automatically equal a Republican conspiracy to suppress the vote. There were problems at Republican precincts as well, even mine.
Garbage. Prove it---sources, pls. Certainly, they aren't as widespread, going by the empirical volume of the complaints. And even if this WERE true: you should be clamoring for an investigation right along with me, instead of pooh-pooh'ing the effort.

Quote:
only time I saw any evidence of this was when the Republican Party had to sue to be allowed to do this exact thing in Ohio, evidence that the Democrats were trying to disallow inspectors.
Again, see above links, esp the incident on www.blackboxvoting.org , Volusca Cty.

Next!
Quote:
it were true it would be grounds for legal action but it would have to be true. There were simlar reports about Democrats pulling similar schemes.
Well, it is true. Sorry to burst your balloon.

And: regarding "similar reports..." again, garbage. Certainly not in the same volume.

No sources, no joy.

Quote:
I am also sure you think it was a conspiracy orchestrated by John Ascroft or something.
You see: here's why I lamblast your critiques so much. YOU think that this is about some conspiracy by the Republican Party to keep Kerry out of office: I think that this is a systematic indicator of deep problems with our voting system. We saw it in 2000 and 2002, and we're seeing it now.

Quote:
Quote:
f. Widespread disenfranchisement of Af-Am voters in Florida (notably Broward Cty) and Ohio;

Really? provide evidence please.
Yeah, really. I ALREADY PROVIDED THE SOURCE. www.gregpalast.com, "Kerry Won: here are the Facts."

Also, simply search "voter irregularity," Broward Florida, or Ohio, and you'll find plenty.

Quote:
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g. The near complete mainstream media blackout on this story, even tho (see above references) there was MORE than enough grist for the mill, before 11/2, for further investigation. Doesn't this fact ALONE make you pause? Nah, probably not, because FoxNews hasn't told you, to pause.

Maybe there was blackout on this story because it was BS, most of the "mainstream" media was supporting Kerry.
ABSOLUTE garbage. www.spinsanity.com or www.mediamatters.com to see the way Kerry was maligned. Please. I'm guessing that you think that the "Swiftboat Veterans for Rove" were supporters??

Quote:
Neil, your propoganda and conspiracy theories simply do not fly.
Not in the mind of a knee-jerk'er, no.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 11-30-2004 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:03 PM   #50
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Voter Meltdown

Consider this:

Something's Fishy in Ohio by Jesse Jackson


Quote:
Ohio is this election year's Florida. The vote in Ohio decided the presidential race, but it was marred by intolerable, and often partisan, irregularities and discrepancies. U.S. citizens have as much reason as those in Kiev to be concerned that the fix was in. Consider:

In Ohio, a court just ruled there can't be a recount yet, because the vote is not yet counted. It's three weeks after the election, and Ohio still hasn't counted the votes and certified the election. Some 93,000 overvotes and undervotes are not counted; 155,000 provisional ballots are only now being counted. Absentee ballots cast in the two days prior to the election haven't been counted.

Ohio determines the election, but the state has not yet counted the vote. That outrage is made intolerable by the fact that the secretary of state in charge of this operation, Ken Blackwell, holds -- like Katherine Harris of Florida's fiasco in 2000 -- a dual role: secretary of state with control over voting procedures and co-chair of George Bush's Ohio campaign. Blackwell should recuse himself so that a thorough investigation, count and recount of Ohio's vote can be made.

Blackwell reversed rules on provisional ballots in place in the spring primaries. These allowed voters to cast provisional ballots anywhere in their county, even if they were in the wrong precinct, reflecting the chief rationale for provisional ballots: to ensure that those who went to the wrong place by mistake could have their votes counted. The result of this decision -- why does this not surprise? -- was to disqualify disproportionately ballots cast in heavily Democratic Cuyahoga County.
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