Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-19-2004, 11:22 PM   #1
Olivia_S
Dojo: Aiki-Kai Australia, Launceston
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Australia
Offline
I want to kick and punch!

I've being learning Aikido for a couple of months and I'm having some doubts. I think that when I started my reasons were maybe wrong - I was probably a bit scared to do a harder martial art and thought that Aikido was the only thing I could actually do (as I'm pretty small).

I REALLY love some aspects of Aikido - I love the people I train with and the environment. Some of the moves are really cool and I love using the Jo and bokken...

However.... I really want to do some kicking and punching, a bit more with REAL weapons (i.e. not ones that are obsolete)etc.... I haven't ever really got a buzz out of Aikido.

I was thinking of checking out a Hapkido class as I believe it is similar to Aikido but with equal focus on punches and kicks and a lot more weapons work.

What do you guys reckon?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2004, 11:36 PM   #2
Zato Ichi
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 129
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Olivia Swann wrote:
However.... I really want to do some kicking and punching, a bit more with REAL weapons (i.e. not ones that are obsolete)etc.... I haven't ever really got a buzz out of Aikido.
Modern weapons? Go buy a gun. Go to local gun club and register for classes. Train.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2004, 11:59 PM   #3
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Olivia Swann wrote:
I've being learning Aikido for a couple of months and I'm having some doubts. I think that when I started my reasons were maybe wrong - I was probably a bit scared to do a harder martial art and thought that Aikido was the only thing I could actually do (as I'm pretty small).

I REALLY love some aspects of Aikido - I love the people I train with and the environment. Some of the moves are really cool and I love using the Jo and bokken...

However.... I really want to do some kicking and punching ....
Given that concerns that lead you to check out Aikido, you realize learning to kick and punch means you will be kicked and punched, right? Hopefully, you will block it, but if you don't, it hurts.

Quote:
..... a bit more with REAL weapons (i.e. not ones that are obsolete)etc....
As noted, firearms are the only truly "modern" weapons. If that's your main thing, martial arts are the wrong place.

Quote:
..... I haven't ever really got a buzz out of Aikido.

I was thinking of checking out a Hapkido class as I believe it is similar to Aikido but with equal focus on punches and kicks and a lot more weapons work.

What do you guys reckon?
It's up to you what to do, not me. However, let me share and observation: It took me two years to realize what I was getting out of Tai Chi and how it fit into my MA regime, so it may be fare to say that two months is not enough time to understand what you are --- and aren't --- getting out of aikido. Martial arts training doesn't have an instant payoff; it is and ongoing process over your whole lifetime. You can't take a two month course and say, "Ok, I got it now." Anyone who tells you you can is talking out the wrong end of their digestive tract.

Whether you stick with Aikido, switch to Hapikido, or cross-train in both, is entirely up to you. But don't expect an instant result or "buzz." It doesn't work that way at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 12:25 AM   #4
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Took me years to find the martial art that was right for me. Go do something else. You might come back to Aikido or not, but if you do you will have an extra skill set.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 12:31 AM   #5
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Olivia Swann wrote:
I was thinking of checking out a Hapkido class as I believe it is similar to Aikido but with equal focus on punches and kicks and a lot more weapons work.

What do you guys reckon?
As much as I like to see people turned on to Hapkido (Darth Vader voice: "you underestimate the power of the dark side...") I must concure with Mr. Gallagher, it will take time.

On a personal note, I have been studying hapkido for 4 years, and I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about the art. Please send me a personal message if you are interested.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 01:06 AM   #6
aikido_diver
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
Australia
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

I guess thats how we all start a martial art. I pondered on this idea that we begin martial arts for different reasons, mine was self defense, so I started Wing Chun. I learnt how to fight, kick and punch, rip heads off, etc. But i found myself with over confidence which also led me to something stupid. I did Wing Chun for three years privately with a high level instructor, as well as classes where I learnt to spar with people different heights and weights.

Anyways the thing that makes me laugh when I speak to the people that I trained with they all went on to do other martial arts that focused more on either; spiritual development, learning ways to better health i.e tai chi. These people were all high level kung fu fighters (hehe), but all went on to something else.

So my advice to you, (even though im a youngster and really have no real life experience - 18yrs old), go and dabble in other things, go learn Wing Chun - founded by a women for smaller people. I suggest the International Wing Chun Academy - www.iwca.com.au . But please continue with your Aikido training, it takes you to places unimaginable in terms of spiritual understanding (not that I have achieved this yet) but thats what has captured me. The whole philosohpy of it all. Buy some books on the art, go to a library and hire some they will help you understand a lot.

Why would you wanna train with modern weapons? Violence isn't the answer (different when your attacked and no choice in the matter) so please go learn some "valuable" martial arts. Again try other things Krav Maga, etc.

Anyways good luck with your pursuit in finding a martial art, but please I urge you to continue your learning in Aikido as it opens doors to realms that do not exist to the normal "agro fighter" as it opens a perseption we as humans cannot scientifically understand.

Cheers.

NOTE: if any information in here is wrong please alert me and Ill happily edit the post. Just my personal understand of the art through training both in Aikido and Wing Chun as well reading numerous books on the matter of religion, martial arts, budo, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 01:44 AM   #7
Bridge
Dojo: Slough Aikikai
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 130
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

There's no harm in having a looksee.

I get a buzz out of both aikido and karate. They're brilliant for different reasons.

Kicking and punching is great fun, but so is throwing each other about! Aikido takes longer before you can really throw yourself into it, on account of ukemis needing to develop sufficiently, but IMO it's just as rewarding as being able to do a solid punch or high kick. Which can take equally long to achieve as a good ukemi, if you are not flexible or your balance is not so good.

And as for getting kicked or hit occasionally? It's not really a problem, and instructors won't let you spar with any dangerous nutters until you are safe to do so. However, you may not be allowed to spar at all for a few months. And getting hit can't be worse than someone taking a lock too far can it?

Wishing you all the best in your search!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 02:48 AM   #8
Olivia_S
Dojo: Aiki-Kai Australia, Launceston
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Australia
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Todd Allen wrote:

Why would you wanna train with modern weapons? Violence isn't the answer (different when your attacked and no choice in the matter) so please go learn some "valuable" martial arts. Again try other things Krav Maga, etc.
Sorry I didn't express that very well.

When we use the bokken, for example, it is always emphasised that it is an obsolete weapon and that we use it to practice accuracy etc... But I want to train with weapons that I could use on someone! I'm not meaning to sound violent, but although I like using the Bokken I feel like using weapons like the Jo is more practical. Although I get the point of using the Bokken and I love training with it, I just don't get the importance of it (yet).

I think what I will do is continue to train and watch a variety of other martial arts, maybe try a few free classes, and if I end up realising that I enjoy Aikido the most, then at least I've made sure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 03:17 AM   #9
Michael Cardwell
Dojo: Snake River Aikido
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Olivia, if you are interested in using weapons you should try a different MA. The aiki ken and aiki jo that we train with are not there so you can become a weapons master. They exist in aikido so we can defend against weapons that are very common. A knife, pipe or club are are still used to attack people with, so they are not obsolete. Also, in my opinion, swords are not an anachronism. I mean, its not as if swords have lost there ability to dispatch people, only that they are not as concealable as a knife (small sword) so they are not used any more. Think about it, what would you be more afraid of, a guy with a 4 inch switchblade, or a guy with a katana ( 3 foot razor )?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 07:25 AM   #10
Jordan Steele
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 126
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

If you want to punch and kick and use more weapons, Aikido isn't for you, it's that simple. Have Fun!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 08:07 AM   #11
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,089
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

I've been studying one art or another, with some gaps, since I was a child. I'm 42 now. I'm very comfortable with the "brand" of aikido I study. At this point, I'm comfortable finishing my journey there.

It sounds like you're not comfortable right now. Go check some other things out.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 08:32 AM   #12
David_francis
 
David_francis's Avatar
Dojo: St Ives Aikidojo
Location: Cambridge
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 41
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

I felt the same, i thought that i need some martial art that is effective after a few years and not after like 10 like aikido. So i asked around and found lots of different sorts of striking art dojos, boxing, kickboxing, thai bo, tang soo do, but i didnt really want to do a non japanese martial art as i didnt think it would compliment my aikido too much. Eventually i found a small karate club which is not very well known and now i train there once a week. It also helps my posture for aikido. Even though i feel like im missing something in my aikido, i could never stop doing it, i like it too much.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 08:33 AM   #13
GaiaM
Dojo: Bend Aiki Martial Arts
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Two things:
1) if you're not enjoying aikido, you should try something else instead, but if you're enjoying it somewhat i definitely encourage you to take a little more time with it (or a lot more) before deciding it will not give you the "buzz" you need. Other aikido dojos will be different as well, so I suggest visiting other styles (what style are you in?)
2) In my understanding, one of the biggest reasons that we use weapons in aikido is because the art is based on sword work. By using the bokken we understand the movements better, where they came from, and their effectiveness.
Gaia

___________
Gaia Marrs
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 09:04 AM   #14
Jason Tonks
Dojo: Bracknell Ellis School of Traditonal Aikido
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 71
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Hello there Olivia. There really is no need for you to change your martial art. What you may want to do is change your dojo. The truth of the matter speaking from experience is that the training methodology in Aikido varies greatly. The real chasm exists by and large between pre war and post war aiki. If you want to do punching and kicking, you need to find a dojo that incorporates that as part of your training. You are more than likely going to have to train within an Aikibudo/jutsu dojo. Whatever anybody tells you, the reality is that some dojos are more martially orientated than others. In the end, you get what you train for. You need to find somewhere that suits you, train your mind, body and spirit hard and progress will follow. Aikido if trained in properly is as effective martially as any other discipline.
Good luck in your training!

All the best Jason T
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 10:41 AM   #15
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Olivia Swann wrote:
.... When we use the bokken, for example, it is always emphasised that it is an obsolete weapon and that we use it to practice accuracy etc... But I want to train with weapons that I could use on someone! I'm not meaning to sound violent, but although I like using the Bokken I feel like using weapons like the Jo is more practical. Although I get the point of using the Bokken and I love training with it, I just don't get the importance of it (yet).
Aikido movements come straight from swordsmanship; I've read that O Sensei used to explain techniques in terms of sword cuts and thrusts. So it's important because Aikido is a weapons-based art, and the sword is the basis for it.

As to it being obsolete .... well, many martial arts that have things that are interesting and fun but also useless. For instance, Kali would seem very pracitcal beacuse it starts with the stick, which is something you could carry and use without raising eyebrows, as opposed to a gun or a knife. You alos get a HUGE empty hand section covering both grappling and striking. Yet mixed into all that is espada y daga, the "sword and dagger" method, where you and your partner have stick in your right hand and a (FAKE!) knife in the left hand; you'll see photos of people doing tie-ups from espada y daga in those overview books on MA if you see anything. It is fun and interesting, and relates to footwork and lays the groound work for empty hand trapping. But at the same time it's useless because you are not going to be walking down the street with a stick and a knife and getting into fights with people with sticks and knives.

I don't know much about hapkido, but I'm sure their system includes weapons that while historoically important to Korean arts are useless in this day and age. Ditto for other systems.

So no, you are not going to be walking around carrying a sword getting into fights with other people with swords. But that is the basis of the system. If you stay with it long enough, that will become apparent to you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 03:14 PM   #16
tenshinaikidoka
 
tenshinaikidoka's Avatar
Dojo: Tri-City Aikido TenShin Dojo
Location: Richland, Wa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Olivia, perhaps look around at other Aikido schools. Like what was said before, some schools also include Atemi (striking) into the curriculum. However, I am not sure where the more weapons thing comes into play. A sword can be translated in an attack as a club, pipe, bat, knife or any other item that people use to fight with in todays world. It is more than a mere sword, there are real world applications to the practise of AikiKen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 06:54 PM   #17
Huker
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 63
Canada
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Olivia,

I am a newcomer to Yoshinkan style Aikido. Our style does involve strikes in the curriculum and we do perform all of the traditional Aikido techniques as well. If you're interested in a style of Aikido that involves strikes (rarely kicks but some very powerful hand strikes) you might want to give Yoshinkan a shot. We also learn the use of the bokken, jo, and tanto.

As far as the weapons go, I agree with the others. Although few people walk around bolstering a shiny new katana at their hip, the bokken is still a part of the Aikido art. Yes, many moves are based on those done by a katana, I appreciate it more for the fact that it is part of the art itself. If all sensei suddenly decided that the bokken was an obsolete weapon and it was eliminated from Aikido, Aikido would lose something important (I'm not trying to pass judgement on your sensei, here...I'm just saying). Also, there are many jo- and tanto- like weapons out there, I'm sure you've noticed. The jo is about the length of a pool cue, for example. Their practicality speaks for themselves.

Well, now that I've regurgitated everything that's been said on this thread and I've contributed my meager two cents, I have some studying that can't be ignored....

I hope you stick with Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2004, 09:30 PM   #18
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
However.... I really want to do some kicking and punching, a bit more with REAL weapons (i.e. not ones that are obsolete)etc.... I haven't ever really got a buzz out of Aikido
Define real and non-obsolete weapond? For me it is the art of throwing the heavy set mobile phone accurately to hit uke's nose at 50 yards distance called mobile-phono-uchi-dori-do which inccidenly I am a hachidan.

I also have a rokkyudan in the art of using the paper-clip to strike at uke's vital nerve spot.

You can PM me to get more information
.
Quote:
I was thinking of checking out a Hapkido class as I believe it is similar to Aikido but with equal focus on punches and kicks and a lot more weapons work.
Hapkido... good art, can also check Yoseikan style aikido, if you like the rough and tumble.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 02:31 AM   #19
Olivia_S
Dojo: Aiki-Kai Australia, Launceston
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Australia
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Thanks everyone for your replies. There have been many points raised that I hadn't thought about.

The weapons thing isn't the main worry with me, I was just throwing that in for emphasis! My main thing is wanting to do some kicking and punching. It's good to see that I didn't get bombarded with a heap of "how could you say such a thing".

But, as I said earlier, if I watch some other classes and maybe participate in a few it might give me something to compare with and ensure that I'm making the right decision, whatever that may be. I might decide that I hate punching and kicking!

Even though I'd pretty much decided to take that approach before posting, I like to hear other's opinions as the more informed I am, the better position I am in to make a decision. And as mentioned, there were some points raised that hadn't crossed my mind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 02:42 AM   #20
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Olivia;

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that some of us believe that in order to do good Aikido you have to get some training in Judo, Karate and perhaps Kendo. Now you can do that now or latter, one at a time or all at once. You don't have to even become expert in all, I would say a years worth once a week is more than enough. If you want more latter great but the idea is to gain the benefit each has to offer, experience different styles of attack and defense, and decide what really is right for you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 06:55 AM   #21
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Yeh - I think Peter has a great point. I've seen many people start aikido, give up and do a striking martial art, and then only after that do they come back to aikido with a greater realisation of why aikido is as it is. You've got to find your opwn path, and if you have doubts, best to persue what you think is best - aikido is not going to disappear - you can always come back later. The benefit you get can be very dependent on your instructor as well.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 10:05 AM   #22
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Olivia;

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that some of us believe that in order to do good Aikido you have to get some training in Judo, Karate and perhaps Kendo. Now you can do that now or latter, one at a time or all at once. You don't have to even become expert in all, I would say a years worth once a week is more than enough. If you want more latter great but the idea is to gain the benefit each has to offer, experience different styles of attack and defense, and decide what really is right for you.
I agree, and it is worth noting that, at least IMHO, you can extend the principle beyond Japanese martial arts. You've laready mentioned hapkido; if you want to do a kung fu system or <plug> Filipino or Indonesian arts </plug>, go for it! This is porbably why my Kali instructor not only thought it was a great idea that I was resuming Aikido after 16 years, but from the way he sounded on the phone, you'd think he would have shoved me in the door if he'd been there! Experiencing the martial arts of different cultures is also part of examining what's out there, and you'll never know what you're going to get out of anything until you try it. Heck, if you want to do Aikido and THAI BOXING, why not?

Good luck!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2004, 12:42 PM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

I would agree with all that it is good to study other arts like karate etc. Most everyone I respect as a teacher and budoka has trained in other external arts. I think in the long run most tend to come back to an internal art such as aikido or ba gau.

I also think you will find the weapons work in aikido to be very relevant to modern weapons. It is not as obvious as some other systems, but no one said it would be easy to learn good principles.

I am using the weapons work and aikido that I learned to develop a non-lethal weapons training program for my Army unit.

I would encourage you to look around to find a good fit like most others have already recommended! Good luck in your search!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2004, 02:30 AM   #24
Matt Molloy
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 134
Scotland
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Define real and non-obsolete weapond? For me it is the art of throwing the heavy set mobile phone accurately to hit uke's nose at 50 yards distance called mobile-phono-uchi-dori-do which inccidenly I am a hachidan.

I also have a rokkyudan in the art of using the paper-clip to strike at uke's vital nerve spot.

You can PM me to get more information
Boon, you're going about this in the wrong way. You need to put this on a video, advertise it in the Martial Arts magazines and charge 200.00 per course before you eventually grade the student (at a further cost of 1000.00) by the use of getting them to video themselves doing the technique and sending it in at which point they receive a shiny gold belt and a badly printed certificate in an oriental language that makes any native speaker of said language burst out laughing whenever they see it.

You could liberally sprinkle the title of Soke around but this may be over egging the pudding.

Cheers,

Matt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2004, 03:04 AM   #25
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: I want to kick and punch!

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Boon, you're going about this in the wrong way. You need to put this on a video, advertise it in the Martial Arts magazines and charge 200.00 per course before you eventually grade the student (at a further cost of 1000.00) by the use of getting them to video themselves doing the technique and sending it in at which point they receive a shiny gold belt and a badly printed certificate in an oriental language that makes any native speaker of said language burst out laughing whenever they see it.

You could liberally sprinkle the title of Soke around but this may be over egging the pudding.

Cheers,

Matt.
GBP 200.00 (sorry, I don't have the pound sign on my keyboard), and GBP 1,000.00... hmmm, not a bad idea Matt. I actually thought of some Elvis Presley style show outfit as the dogi complete with gems studded belt for my future dan grades.

Oriental language? Can I use Old Gaelic instead?

Cheers Matt,

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Defence against hooks Reuben Techniques 109 06-26-2009 03:52 PM
Double Edged Sayings Magma General 14 06-27-2005 08:23 PM
jeet kun do kocakb Techniques 50 06-15-2005 09:21 AM
Kick Defenses... Jermaine Alley Training 16 06-23-2002 08:32 PM
DEFENCE AGAINST KICKS samurai_x General 39 08-06-2000 12:56 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:35 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate