Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-28-2004, 11:03 AM   #26
Aiki1
 
Aiki1's Avatar
Dojo: ACE Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 346
United_States
Offline
Re: Katatedori as an "Attack"

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

Budo is all about awareness. If you tell yourself that this isn't an attack but rather a "connection exercise" then you lose the whole martial context and this leads to very sloppy technique and awareness. There are all sorts of places where one can go to train and the nage would be shocked and caught completely unawares by a tsuki along with the grab. This is not right. One should always train for the grabs as if the strike were coming, even if at the beginning level it isn't.
Hey George et al - how's it going?

This is an interesting discussion to me - partially because I believe in and incorporate both points of view. Without the martial aspects, Aikido becomes, well, let's say, something other than an effective martial art. Fine for some, not for me. BUT - without using - I'd say virtually Everything - as a "connection exercise" as well, then I'd say one runs the risk of not doing Aikido either, just following a set of technical training tools, and I think this leads to really sloppy Aikido as well.

I have had Many experienced yudansha come through my dojo over the years who could not do the most basic katate tori movements properly because they had Only looked at that attack as "an attack" and "bypassed" the deep learning that comes from using it as an exercise about connection and Ki. The problem for me when one limits oneself like this is that uke is always giving such obvious intention that nage may never learn how to actually Do Aikido - only how to Practice it in one certain way. As a result, I have seen many Aikidoists who can't really actually do very much outside of their own dojo and style, or off the actual mat.

So I try to incorporate and emphasize both levels of training into everything I do and teach, even if I have to break it up into the different aspects sometimes, or often. That's my take on it.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2004, 11:27 AM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Katatedori as an "Attack"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote:

I have had Many experienced yudansha come through my dojo over the years who could not do the most basic katate tori movements properly because they had Only looked at that attack as "an attack" and "bypassed" the deep learning that comes from using it as an exercise about connection and Ki. The problem for me when one limits oneself like this is that uke is always giving such obvious intention that nage may never learn how to actually Do Aikido - only how to Practice it in one certain way. As a result, I have seen many Aikidoists who can't really actually do very much outside of their own dojo and style, or off the actual mat.
Hi Larry,
Ah yes, the flip side of the coin (which is always there). What you are talking about is not mutually exclusive with maintaining the martial paradigm.In fact if one is really serious about his martial training it leads to what you are talking about.

I became aware in the last couple of years just how many of us who were trained to attack strongly, in this case grab as hard as we could, came to use this as a crutch when executing techniques from grabbing attacks. If one is grabbed strongly enough and one knows how to do good solid movement, then you can force the partner to move by attacking his grab.This method doesn't work on people who attack weakly however, it just breaks the connection.

If you look at virtually every technique done from a grab, it should be possible to do almost every one with the partner opening his hand and merely placing his palm on what he he has "grabbed". If he does this and you break connection when you do the technique, then you have been relying on the power of the attacker's grab to make your technique work. You place your energy in your wrist and direct it into his palm heal so that the flow of energy goes through his entire structure regardless of whether he holds on or not.

So I don't disagree that many folks who "thought" they were being martial because they were simply strong have missed the boat. But this isn't because they were thinking martially, it was that they didn't understand what training martially was.

My opponent cannot be expected to grab and then hold on for dear life as he is lead off balance and thrown. As he feels what is starting to happen he will almost certainly try to let go and withdraw in order to regroup and retake the initiative. One should always do ones technique with the idea that the partner will let go and possibly change the attack. If one is training properly, maintaining the sensitive and responsive connection to which I believe you are referring, it shouldn't make any difference. Either he will not be able to counter the given technique or a new techhnique will develop of its own because of the unbroken connection.

So I think you and I are on the same page. When I say martial I don't just mean attacks that are strong and very physical. Some of the most effective technique is so light that you can barely feel it (a la Systema for instance). So to paraphrase an old political slogan "It's the connection, stupid." It isn't about the power, per se. I feel that proper martial thinking brings this about. It shouldn't interfere with it.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 10-28-2004 at 11:30 AM.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2004, 03:23 PM   #28
Aiki1
 
Aiki1's Avatar
Dojo: ACE Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 346
United_States
Offline
Re: Katatedori as an "Attack"

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
So I think you and I are on the same page. When I say martial I don't just mean attacks that are strong and very physical. Some of the most effective technique is so light that you can barely feel it (a la Systema for instance).
Absolutely - that's one of the most fundamental principles of ACE Aikido - we have termed it "Kinesthetic Invisibility" and when done correctly, the "attacker" virtually feels Nothing. That to me is Really going with the flow and being in harmony. To me Aikido isn't the "art of least resistance" - it's the art of "no" resistance.

Quote:
So to paraphrase an old political slogan "It's the connection, stupid." It isn't about the power, per se. I feel that proper martial thinking brings this about. It shouldn't interfere with it.
Ya, I see what you mean, and I too agree - it's the notion of Proper martial thinking that I think is part of the "problem" in many dojo....

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Katatedori Kokyunage Omote? Jory Boling Techniques 13 05-15-2006 11:51 AM
Why Katatetori is used in Aikido? Miguelspride67 General 76 11-24-2004 09:40 AM
Katatedori Tenkan kaishaku Techniques 13 11-08-2004 09:32 AM
Poll: Do you think katatedori (same side wrist grab) in and of itself could be an effective attack? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 24 03-05-2003 10:38 PM
Testing Requirements thomson Websites 9 03-15-2002 02:57 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:49 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate