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Old 10-17-2004, 01:31 PM   #1
oudbruin
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Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

While most of us have had interface at some point in our lives with the occasional drunk, I am very curious to see how many law enforcement officer types are able or willing to discuss thier interaction with the uke loaded on PCP or other drugs
I ask this because, the normal motivation with uke is inflection of pain to a joint or limb., or else a takedown from thier centre/third leg.
A person on PCP (even some really loaded drunks) generally has no normal pain recognition, so what works? ( Aside from a single tap to the head?)
I've heard some police here on the east coast, comment that Aikido isn't effective simply because druggies and some drunks really don't have the normal responses to pain.
Any law enforcement types want to comment?
Bruce
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Old 10-17-2004, 03:54 PM   #2
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Dear Bruce,

I haven't run into any trouble using ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo on drunks or those loaded on most recreational drugs. PCP is another matter, although I have very little PCP arrest experience. I've only dealt with two people on PCP and I was very impressed with their strength and resistance to pain. In the first case we had enough folks on site to swarm the 100 pound woman and get her under control. In the second case I was by myself and was at the point of dislocating the suspect's shoulder using my baton as a lever when he simply quit fighting (to my great relief).

Generally aikido-based techniques have worked really well for me, particularly with drunks. With their reaction slowed and balance and coordination already impaired, it usually was easy to redirect them into custody.

Course, you folks grow 'em pretty tough in Trenton - spent a lifetime there one Saturday night and ended up married to a Jersey girl.

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:43 PM   #3
Nacho_mx
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I've heard Tasernage works wonderfully with this types.
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Old 10-19-2004, 09:34 AM   #4
stoker
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

The chemicals in their system really screw up the timing of the pain signals to their brain. I have been told horror stores from cops and bouncers about drugged out men trying to punch with hards that have factured bones sticking out or having various stabbing items hanging out of their bodies.

A cop told me about aman who smashed his own hand in a car door in order to make the hand small enough to get out of handcuffs! Imaging you have a wrist lock on a person who is will to really sacrifice his bones.

dave stokes
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Old 10-19-2004, 09:41 AM   #5
son mai
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Question Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

But the point of the lock is not the pain or the wrist is it? I thought you were trying to control the whole person. Trying to take them off balance and control their body.
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Old 10-19-2004, 09:58 AM   #6
Mathias
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I see Aikido as a way of taking your opponents balance, not a way to inflict pain. Even such techniques as Nikyo and Sankyo can be balance breaking techniques if you want them to. So i don´t see why Aikido wouldn´t work on someone on drugs. If your attacker are on drugs it is quite possible that their balance is worse than usual, so in fact Aikido may work BETTER...

The thing i would be really afraid of is that people on drugs tend to not give up when a normal person would. So restraining someone in a pin may be very difficult. I for one would try to throw them once and then run in the opposite direction fast as h***

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Old 10-19-2004, 10:09 AM   #7
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

How about Aikido WHILST drunk??

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 10-19-2004, 05:09 PM   #8
deepsoup
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
How about Aikido WHILST drunk??
Never tried the waza, but the ukemi have helped me out on a few, rather embarassing, occasions.

Sean
x
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:09 PM   #9
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Hi !

For every one beer you drink you loose a belt -

after 3 beers you´d better not get in trouble .

just my thoughts -

yours - Chr.B.
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:56 PM   #10
mj
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Son Mai wrote:
But the point of the lock is not the pain or the wrist is it? I thought you were trying to control the whole person. Trying to take them off balance and control their body.
I agree. And welcome to Aikiweb

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Old 10-19-2004, 09:48 PM   #11
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
For every one beer you drink you loose a belt -after 3 beers you´d better not get in trouble .just my thoughts -
I'm afraid my pants may fall off. LOL

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 10-20-2004, 04:19 PM   #12
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I have no personal knowledge of someone high on PCP, which I have heard does make the person non responsive to pain, however I have used Yubi Dori and several joint locks successfully on drunks. In my opinion, Aikido works wonderful on most suspects that are resisting or have a problem complying.
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:38 PM   #13
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Hi all,

A colleague of mine found that kote gaeshi is a formidable technique for use on aggressive drunk people. To completely turn someone upside down often helps them let go of any urges for attack. They might also like to become your friend after too. However, I've found that simply taking a drunk person's shikaku is enough. I've never had to pin or restrain an intoxicated person though. I believe that may be a whole different kettle of fish.

Aikido whilst drunk? I don't believe that drunken style Aikido is really worth researching. Even if you believe that it is necessary to be able to perform effective technique under any circumstances. Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.
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Old 10-20-2004, 07:17 PM   #14
maikerus
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.
Hmmm...You've never trained at the Yoshinkan hombu, where instructors have been known to make it their responsibility to get you drunk.

And I seem to remember some stories about various founders...but lets not get into that.

This is a personal decision (and laudable) but I wouldn't try to say that it is one of the responsiblities that we take on because of our study of Aikido.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:45 PM   #15
vanstretch
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I am with Michael H., having minimal dealings with persons U.I. of PCP that I had to struggle with to effect an arrest. Thank god. One call I responded to, involved a man that was climbing up to a first story hotel baclony and jumping off it, just climbing up and jumping off it in a continuous manner. When we arrived he was still doing it and appeared that he was landing on both feet as if catlike in a springing motion with bent knees. On closer inspection, the guys' complete ankle/foot was dangling and the guy was really landing on the legbone like it was a stilt ! PCP 4ya. He took the ambulance.
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:02 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.
uh, yeah, this strikes me as a little odd too...I think aikidoka (even out of japan) drink an exceptional amount of beer...and get drunk at a reasonable clip too. As long as you don't drive drunk, no problem with me. 'Course, I'd prefer it if you didn't barf in my vacinity, too...

RT

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Old 10-21-2004, 05:21 PM   #17
Yokaze
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Not much I can say here that hasn't been said before. There is a bit though.

I've known plenty of cops with experience dealing with PCP junkies.

If you know somebody is on the stuff when they attack you, RUN THE HELL AWAY.

I don't care how skilled you are. Try fighting a crazed monster who is twice as strong as any human has a right to be and is completely immune to pain. Half of the unbalancing in Aikido seems to be in making the opponent WANT to go down in order to escape the pain.

Your muscles have two thresholds. There's the normal amount you can flex your muscles before the pain is too great. That pain exists in order to keep you from injuring yourself. If you take enough PCP, however, all pain is erased. Without the pain, your muscles can flex nearly twice as hard, because you're flexing them without regards for the later consequences. (You want proof? Ask the woman who lifted the back end of a car to get her kid out. That was just adrenaline.)

I've heard of a 100 pound teenager knocking out three 200 lb cops before finally being taken down. you fight someone like that, and the rules of physiology, the rules Aikido is based on, go out the window.

So you run and hope to god that they don't decide to chase you.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

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Old 10-21-2004, 06:03 PM   #18
mj
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.

Insane people on PCP repeatedly jumping off buildings with broken legs? A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?

o-O

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Old 10-21-2004, 06:35 PM   #19
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

G'day Michael,

You got me on that one! I've never trained at Yoshinkan Hombu. I had no idea drinking was encouraged so much. I like a good beer or sip of sake as much as the next man. In moderation.

I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.
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Old 10-21-2004, 07:32 PM   #20
Yokaze
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.
I know it's hard to believe, but pain is one of the things that keeps us from bringing out our full physical potential. I can't lift the back end of a Volkswagon, because the pain would stop me. If, on the other hand, my little sister's leg was caught under the back tire, you can be damn sure that car is coming off the ground. It's happened before, by people older and weaker than myself (no ego intended).

Now, I'd probably rupture something doing it. Strain tendons, disks, rip muscles. In the moment, however, all that is forgotten. Adrenaline is powerful stuff.

PCP is like adrenaline times 10, plus it messes with your mind. In large amounts, it can literally stop you from feeling pain while, at the same time, removing your rationality. Is it so hard to believe that someone would survive jumping off a building when they can't die from the shock of the pain? Is it so hard to believe that a teenager can resist several grown men when his heart and muscles are working on overdrive?

I've heard worse stories. Things that seem even more impossible. Those, though, are third-hand stories. I actually know a guy who helped subdue the teenager I referred to.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

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Old 10-21-2004, 09:44 PM   #21
oudbruin
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

As I prefaced this- most cops localy tell me that if they think the perp is on PCP, it's a tap to the head if ther arn't enough cops to swarm the wacko.
As for ETOH- yeah, most of the time reactions are slowed down and the pain receptors work fine- 90$ of the time...It's those few drunks that either have some strange mix of chemestry or .. whatever..
tasers work on normal folks- don't think it's gonna work on the amped up kid on crystal meth or pcp.
as for crack users..since thier CNS is generally shot after a few weeks of usage, no problem there...
oh well, just an observation..
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Old 10-21-2004, 10:19 PM   #22
maikerus
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
G'day Michael,

You got me on that one! I've never trained at Yoshinkan Hombu. I had no idea drinking was encouraged so much. I like a good beer or sip of sake as much as the next man. In moderation.

I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.
I can only give you my experience, but drinking is a very large part of Japanese culture and seems to be one way of allowing kohai to yell at sempai without there being any retribution. I have read some texts that talk about Shioda and Ueshiba partaking in this tradition. I believe it might have been in Aikido Shugyo or some early translations of it - don't know if it got in the final translation - but am not positive.

Part of the culture includes pouring each other drinks. In fact its considered bad form to pour your own glass. So, what you do, is your pour someone else's glass and then they fill you up.

Since in the Aikido parties there are many, many seniors and guests present that you have to introduce yourself to and pour drinks for you end up getting many drinks poured for you.

Once you've been to a couple of these parties you figure out the tricks that allow you to drink mostly in moderation, but if a senior instructor catches you at that...you might as well write the next morning off.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-21-2004, 11:59 PM   #23
vanstretch
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

To Mark Johnston, the cynical reader, and respectfully; I can see your point, if you aren't a cop or medic who has encountered persons under the influence of mind-bending substances then, yeah, it would seem odd huh? We had a pair of cuffs on dispay for awhile that a PCP suspect broke out of. These were not the old chain connector handcuffs of our fathers generation, these were the new ,stronger welded hinge-cuffs. The jaws of the irons were bent and the internal hardware useless. It looked like they were worn by the Terminator himself! Adreneline is the strongest of drugs, yes, now factor in a chemical such as PCP, dust, meth,etc, and a mental malfunction(s) and it is easy to see how these impossible feats occur. Take care. Daniel.
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Old 10-26-2004, 06:52 AM   #24
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.

A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?

o-O
If you had any notion of what training cops have had, you wouldn't question a story like that.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 10-26-2004, 09:48 AM   #25
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?
Ever take a little kid to get their vaccinations? I remember it taking three adults to hold me down and I was just a little tyke

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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