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Old 09-06-2004, 06:26 AM   #1
daniel loughlin
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Confused take the pain or tap out?

id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while. id just like 2 know what you do or what happens in your dojo?
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:32 AM   #2
Steven Scott
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I have to say, and I feel very strongly about this point in particular, that if I am demonstrating a technique or engaging in practice and I know that what I have applied is effective and is causing serious discomfort to a student due to their desire to 'ignore the pain' then I can become very angry with them.

Personally, the only reason any Uke would have for fighting through the pain of a good technique, is to (in their minds) maintain an attitude of contention against Nage.

Such contention is not the desirable attitude to have in an Aikido Dojo, on top of that it is also irresponsible.

Many students have a higher pain threshold than others, and if a technique such as yonkyo (which does not actually have to cause pain to be effective) is not properly applied then by all means allow Nage to try again, but inform them that it does not feel right. Be helpful about it.
What then happens when you meet someone with a lower pain threshold that you do not know about. They get hurt.

I am also surprised, and more than a little saddened that your instructor finds an ability to take pain so impressive a trait to possess. That attitude should have gone out with the dark ages (or primary school).

Talk with your instructor about his expectations from students and ascertain for sure what response he desires from you. It is always possible that what appears to be a form of respect is actually a method of encouraging you to tap out. Perhaps a little bit of overkill, but it may be designed to be teaching a valyuable lesson.

I maintain my earlier statement though.

Again, my apologies for a more stronger viewpoint in this reply, but I have witnessed so many unecessary injuries occurring during what should have been routine practice because someone wanted to test both the limits of their 'threshold' and their partners patience.

I wish you all the best in your training.

Yours in Aiki
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:45 AM   #3
DaveO
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I agree with Steven. In my case; I've got bad wrists so while I can take a great deal of pain without complaint; there's no point at all.
Look at it like a chess endgame. Several moves before the end of a game; both players may know one is about to be mated; e.g. "Queen takes rook; mate in six." At this point; there's simply no reason to play the thing out; the losing player will retire gracefully and shake the winner's hand. It's the same thing with a wrist technique. If nage gets nikkyo on me; I don't need to feel it hurting to know it's going to hurt in the very near future; so what's the point of actually feeling it? I'll tap immediately - saves the wrists and saves time for more training. The only time I don't tap right away is if I feel something wrong with the nikkyo; I'll say "Ow - wait; something's not right - get it into your shoulder..."etc. until it's in the proper position. Then I'll tap - fast.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:50 AM   #4
Nick Simpson
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

The way im familiar with yonkyo is that it is done in an ikkyo like manner and casts the uke down onto the floor, after that a pin is applied were uke needs to tap out if done correctly or suffer possible arm/shoulder damage. The pain from the actual yonkyo control is a secondary matter, as long as uke is on the floor and controlled then they dont need to tap out from the nerve pain, just the pin which follows. If you dont tap out then and tori is doing it right then you risk a dislocation/breakage. Your choice at the end of the day...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-06-2004, 08:30 AM   #5
ruthmc
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while.
I suspect that your sensei wants to feel you extending your ki to resist the pain of the nerve pinch

It is actually possible to resist if you practice pushing the pain away, but you need to be able to exercise a fair bit of control. Most folk, when the pain hits, just go into brain-freeze and tap out or scream. The other method is to allow your wrists to receive the yonkyo nerve pinch so much that the nerves die (as one of my teachers did) but I would not recommend this!

During the pin, resistance is foolish and futile - you can get injured very easily so don't do it! By all means have a go at resisting the nerve pinch though...

Ruth
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Old 09-06-2004, 09:48 AM   #6
Nick Simpson
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Resisting the nerve pinch isnt that hard, it hurts like hell, of course it depends on who does it, sometimes it causes minor discomfort-sometimes sheer mind bending agony. But if its done statically whats the point of it? Its just causing pain without any form of restraint or control, unless you count just pain as a restraint. Nikkyo puts you on the floor and hurts you, a yonkyo control would just hurt you if you didnt cast or project afterwards?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-06-2004, 10:13 AM   #7
Devon Natario
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

One thing I hate is when people react to something I havent done. I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them. It's the people that act like it hurts, when I have applied like 2% to the technique.

I know you all know what Im talking about. I did do Yonkyo to someone and after I projected them, they flew to the ground.

I want to make someone go to the ground with pain, not have someone jump around because they think they know where I want to take them.

I will actually correct people when they "act" too. If it doesnt hurt, dont move! If it hurts, dont act like it doesnt.

This is all about "learning" and training. Not about being "the tough guy in class". It's okay that it hurts, that's what its supposed to do.

I have found some people that do not have any pain from Nikyo or the Yonkyo techniques though, and it doesnt matter. You can still do the techniques to people that actually dont feel pain.

Anyways- take care.

Devon Natario
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Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 09-06-2004, 10:39 AM   #8
Nick Simpson
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

DUFFY DIVING! is the usual call when someone falls unnecesarily around here :P

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-06-2004, 10:54 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

IMHO, never ignore pain.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:55 AM   #10
ryujin
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Learn how to do the technique so that it controls the person's center instead of causes pain.

These techniques do not have to hurt in order to work.

As far as pain goes, there is a reason we feel it. It so we stop doing whatever it is that causes it.


Carl Bilodeau
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō
Renshinkan

"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 09-06-2004, 02:17 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
One thing I hate is when people react to something I havent done. I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them. It's the people that act like it hurts, when I have applied like 2% to the technique.

I know you all know what Im talking about. I did do Yonkyo to someone and after I projected them, they flew to the ground.

I want to make someone go to the ground with pain, not have someone jump around because they think they know where I want to take them.
You are assuming that YOU know when you are causing somebody else pain. Your 2% may create pain for some folks. Also bear in mind that pain does not necasarily equal either damage or control. Your 2% may injure some other folks, with or without hurting them.

Me, I want my partner to go to ground because their attack and my response to it resulting in a total undermining of balance. Pain don't enter into it. YMMV.

As for original question: there is something to be said for learning to relax and breathe into non-malignant pain such as nikkyo. There is also something to be said for being a responsive, connected uke and staying with your partner, going where things are going.
Me, I tap either when I'm in pain heading for damage, or when I'm controlled, but if the tap is for pain on the verge of damage, but I'm not actually being locked up, I do tell my partner so she can aim for actual control/balancetaking next time.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-06-2004, 06:02 PM   #12
paw
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Tap early, tap often --- bjj maxim.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:01 PM   #13
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Tap when it's on.

I hate white-knuckle nikkajo that doesn't lock anything, but just hurts my wrist/forearm.
Those I'll try to stand there for just because sometimes I'm stubborn.

Besides, if everyone drops too quickly or slaps whenever anyone does some half-arsed osae that doesn't actually lock anything, how are we every supposed to learn how to do it effectively?

Hopefully my uke will do the same to me whenever I do some poor excuse for a lock.
I'm here the learn, not to stroke my ego.

Last edited by stuartjvnorton : 09-06-2004 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:36 PM   #14
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while. id just like 2 know what you do or what happens in your dojo?
at the highest level take the injury or tap .pain is what happens before injury also after.it sounds silly but for arm locks it's good to let yourself get a little injury so you'll know what you're dealing with .it will heal in time then you'll know better how far to go .unless you're not in need of that high an understanding i.e police officer ,professional fighter ,,,etc.then just tap when it hurts.in any event you grow stronger the more you endure.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:13 AM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
it sounds silly but for arm locks it's good to let yourself get a little injury so you'll know what you're dealing with .it will heal in time .
I have watched too many people let an acute "little injury" turn into a chronic long term pain to endorse this.
There is a benign pain associated with nikkyo, that flash of OW, caused by nerve endings touching, that does not signify injury. Learning to accept and breathe into this is one thing.
Beginners have no way to judge the difference between benign pain and a tendon being injured. Tendon injury takes 6 to 8 wks to heal. Period. There is no such thing as a tendon injury that is good to get, unless one is prepared to stop training for a few weeks and let the darn thing heal properly.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:11 AM   #16
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

There has to be some pain. Take more? It depends upon the person. An uke that taps too soon or jumps is no uke at all. If you don't like pain, take up origami.

You should not give where it is not desired though - there has to be an element of 'negotiated' understanding between tori and uke. There are no blanket rules, just 'negotiated' ones. The teacher's job is to make sure it does not get out of hand.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:17 AM   #17
batemanb
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
.......... I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them............

.......I want to make someone go to the ground with pain...........
Why?

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
This is all about "learning" and training. Not about being "the tough guy in class". It's okay that it hurts, that's what its supposed to do.
This reminds me of a seminar that I was on earlier in the year. We were practicing shomen uchi nikkyo ura. My partner went first and cranked a couple of very hard nikkyo's on me. My turn, using kuzushi I put him on the floor and held his wrist, but he was looking at me blankly not tapping out. We went through this cycle two or three times, then whilst he was on his knees he looked at me and said "you don't undrestand nikkyo do you?", I asked him to stand up at which point he dropped back to his knees rather quickly tapping the floor. The point being that nikkyo was applied without pain, I didn't try to inflict or intend there to be any. The pain only comes if uke decides to fight, not because it's supposed to be there.

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
.......Anyways- take care.....
I hope so.

rgds

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Old 09-07-2004, 03:09 AM   #18
DaveO
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
it sounds silly but for arm locks it's good to let yourself get a little injury so you'll know what you're dealing with .it will heal in time then you'll know better how far to go.
I greatly respect Mr. Delucia; he trains in a seriously tough field. However; I must take issue with this. Little injuries to joints don't heal. Ever. They almost heal; but the joint is never the same again. You can learn a lot with a minor injury true enough; but you'll eventually pay a very high price as you get older. And I don't mean 50+.
I have to use my hands to help myself up long flight of stairs. Both my wrists are deformed and in constant pain. I have arthritis in the R wrist, elbow and knuckles, and persistent rotator cuff problems in the L shoulder. Previously broken ribs give me occasional breathing trouble. The collarbone that got shattered 10 years ago is a very literal - and constant - pain in the neck. Dozens - perhaps hundreds - of little injuries over the course of time insure I'll spend the rest of my life in pain.
I'm 36 years old.
That 'little injury' may be a badge of pride right now; but as soon as the body starts losing its elasticity; it'll be back - for good.

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Old 09-07-2004, 11:59 AM   #19
Devon Natario
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
You are assuming that YOU know when you are causing somebody else pain. Your 2% may create pain for some folks. Also bear in mind that pain does not necasarily equal either damage or control. Your 2% may injure some other folks, with or without hurting them.
Sorry, I've been doing this awhile, I do know when a person is being hurt and when they are reacting to "nothing". You aren't speaking to a person who loves to create pain on people, you are speaking to someone who has done this long enough, that I can tell when a small portion of pain is caused by a persons reaction. I guess the only thing I can say is, "Keep practicing, and someday, you'll know what Im talking about."

When I practice, I am focusing on street and martial combat, not an "art form" I dont want to focus on doing a joint lock that doesn't hurt, because then it's not a joint lock, it's a "hold". The entire point to "joint locks" are locking the joints, causing pain, and controlling your partner. If I want to use these techniques on patrol as a cop, or in the field as a soldier, being kind hearted is the last thing on my mind. Being that it is my partner in class, I dont want to hurt them, but I want to make sure I have it right.

DO NOT jump like it hurts or you are being controlled if you're not. If people react like this guy did to me, then we might as well classify all of us as O'Sensei.

Hopefully this explains to you as well batmanb, as to "why?

I learn martial arts to help me with work or to help me with military action. Of course that is where the term "martial" has come from, or did everyone forget that?

These techniqes to me are not practiced for the mysticism behind O'Sensei, they are "martial" techniques.

If people want to take an art, go join a painting class. Because if you "act" like it hurts, you are doing no justice to your partner.

Devon Natario
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Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:14 PM   #20
Hanna B
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while. id just like 2 know what you do or what happens in your dojo?
Now, yonkyo is different than most other aikido techniques. It is the only pain technique in aikido that I know of, that involves no joint manipulation. Taking yonkyo pain is not dangerous; I have been told that some Japanese teachers say "yonkyo lengthens your life".

For all other techniques, I's say it is a good advice to tap out rather than taking pain. Yonkyo can be trained in different ways, and one of them is learning to handle the pain. It can actually be very interesting.

Jan Hermansson, the grand old man of Swedish aikido, teaches to "relax and let the unpleasant yonkyo feeling disappear through your finger tips". If you tense your muscle and try to resist the pain, it can last a little while but when the pain comes it is sharp. If you follow JH's advice, pain comes slowly and you can hold our longer.

I was a bit nervous about going to JH's "pain class", but I am very glad that I did. I used to hate yonkyo, he taught me how to deal with it.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:26 PM   #21
Nick Simpson
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Most of the ways I have seen yonkyo involve casting ukes shoulder through his head, so to speak, by pushing the elbow towards the ceiling and then cutting down as the yonkyo grip is being put on, this way the pain from the yonkyo nerve is just a pleasent bonus, not the actual point of the technique. I have never seen anyone attempt to do yonkyo by just grinding on the nerve point and not attempting to manipulate any of uke's joints.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:32 PM   #22
Hanna B
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I worded my post unwisely. I agree with what you are saying (although I have seen people attempting to do yonkyo by pain point pressure only). The yonkyo pain however is not a joint pain, and yonkyo does not possess the possibile danger for your joints in the same way that sankyo and kotegaeshi does. That was my point.

Last edited by Hanna B : 09-07-2004 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:41 PM   #23
jonreading
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

For what its worth, my instructor used to advise students to occassionally resist technique for two reasons:
Under controlled circumstances, the joint technique could be used to stretch and strengthen limbs.
Under controlled circumstances, uke can test the application of the technique and discover kaishiwaza

To me, pushing technique to pain every time is excessive; put I do believe in pushing occassionally. You have to trust your partner however, or you can be seriously injured.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:27 PM   #24
akiy
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
For what its worth, my instructor used to advise students to occassionally resist technique for two reasons:
Under controlled circumstances, the joint technique could be used to stretch and strengthen limbs.
Under controlled circumstances, uke can test the application of the technique and discover kaishiwaza
Interesting. If I wanted a stretch from a partner's technique, I'd relax into it, not resist. Also, in my mind, kaeshiwaza comes from moving with, not resisting againt techniques...

-- Jun

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Old 09-07-2004, 03:15 PM   #25
Janet Rosen
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
When I practice, I am focusing on street and martial combat, not an "art form" I dont want to focus on doing a joint lock that doesn't hurt, because then it's not a joint lock, it's a "hold". The entire point to "joint locks" are locking the joints, causing pain, and controlling your partner. (SNIP)
I learn martial arts to help me with work or to help me with military action. Of course that is where the term "martial" has come from, or did everyone forget that?
If people want to take an art, go join a painting class. Because if you "act" like it hurts, you are doing no justice to your partner.
I agree with your last sentence.
We differ in our training goals. I am not training to learn to do military action; if I wanted to do that, I'd join the armed forces. You work with folks who need/want to do that, fine.
I agree w/ the writer who posted that it is only when uke is resisting that there should be pain; the rest of the time, timing, balance taking, and locking of the system should be adequate. At least, that's my own goal in training.

Janet Rosen
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