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Old 10-10-2004, 04:16 AM   #1
kienergy1234
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twenty years ?

i know i have posted many threads on this subject and i am VERY sorry,but something is really starting to bother me,our aikido school(aikikai)has many instuctors but only one cheif instuctor,and when is asked one of the instuctors how long it took aikido to start working as a self defense he said twenty years to START workin,the CHIEF instructor said 6 months to a year ,any comments
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Old 10-10-2004, 04:51 AM   #2
villrg0a
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Hmmmm very difficult to answer...
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Old 10-10-2004, 07:00 AM   #3
guest89893
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i know i have posted many threads on this subject and i am VERY sorry,but something is really starting to bother me,our aikido school(aikikai)has many instuctors but only one cheif instuctor,and when is asked one of the instuctors how long it took aikido to start working as a self defense he said twenty years to START workin,the CHIEF instructor said 6 months to a year ,any comments
Joshua,
Explain what is so important about when Aikido "works" as a self-defense?

And how many threads do you need to get the answer "you" want to hear?

Last edited by guest89893 : 10-10-2004 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 10-10-2004, 07:22 AM   #4
Andrew James
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Re: twenty years ?

It wasn't that long ago in class we we're all having trouble with a certain technique. The sensei said 'don't worry it will come together soon - give it twenty more years'..............he was only joking of course. I think that your instructor has probably the same sense of humour

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/kaigan-no-maru/
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Old 10-10-2004, 07:59 AM   #5
kienergy1234
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Re: twenty years ?

my instructor was SERIOUS actually ,when he said twenty years
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:06 AM   #6
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Josh, I have had students successfully defend themselves with "aikido" after a few months in the dojo. The truth is: It depends on who the attacker is... and who the defender is.... and many other things that are not under your control at the time. Aikido does not turn you into a superman that "wins" every time. After 10 to 20 years you should have a better chance of being better at what you do than the attacker is at what they do... but there are still no guarantees that you'll be successful.

Practice for the sake of the practice and what it brings to your life and keep learning.

Gambatte!

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:17 AM   #7
L. Camejo
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Hey Josh,

Consider yourself lucky. I met and trained with an Aikikai instructor who told me that he did not even consider Aikido a martial art. So there goes any thoughts of being able to defend oneself with it. Thankfully this was just a visit while away and not my main style that I train at home.

Maybe the instructor just got tired of you asking the question? Imo Chuck hit the nail on the head, it depends on many factors. In my own experience my instructor did not focus on self defence aspects so much, but I made sure to extract what I could from what he gave to be able to defend myself from the average drunk joe within a matter of months of training. But as I'm sure you've heard before - if you want to learn self defence go do a proven self defence course, not a martial art. It's just quicker if that is your goal. If you want to learn Aikido, then go train hard and train with a focus to what you want to get out of the training and stop spending so much time on the web.

Just some thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-10-2004 at 09:19 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:34 AM   #8
Noel
Location: Rochester, NY
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Re: twenty years ?

Self defense or self defense?

The best self defense is not to get in a bad situation to begin with. That, I can see after six months to a year.

To actually apply a technique to a non-compliant, untrained uke? Well, if I can do it in twenty years, I will significantly beat my own forecast.

YMMV,
-Noel
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Old 10-10-2004, 11:34 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Kohai,

IMHO, you are questioning so much you may be interfering with your own ability to progress. The question may not be when will Aikido make you effective but when will you make your Aikido effective. Effectiveness in a reality self-defense situation is more a matter of your personality, intent , and commitment, not what style your are studying. I have been with military personnel in CQC/H2H who could not make it work until they really changed where their head was at.

Quit questioning and get back to training. Question will not make you a better fighter.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-10-2004, 08:22 PM   #10
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: twenty years ?

Does it really matter?

Aikido is good/wonderful/interesting/fantastic/amazing for so much more than self defense. If that narrow perception is the only focus you have then perhaps Aikido is not the best thing for you, but I would argue that there is nothing out there that is dedicated to only satisfying one thing.

I know many people who entered Aikido with one goal in mind (physical fitness, self defense, confidence, social reasons...etc.) but the only ones that stayed were those that found something in addition to their original reason.

WRT the difference in answers you got when asking this question to your instructors, you might consider that one of them learned that they didn't need to fight in 6 months to a year - which is an important insight and well worth passing on to zealous beginners, while the other may have known that, but wanted to address your apparant keenness to fight and gave you the number of 20 years...so hopefully you won't think about going out and starting anything you can't finish for at least that long.

Just a thought...maybe two. But what do I know...I've only been doing this for 20 years <g>.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:26 PM   #11
GaiaM
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Re: twenty years ?

Go train so you can come to your own conclusion sometime in the next 50 years.
Gaia

___________
Gaia Marrs
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:11 PM   #12
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i know i have posted many threads on this subject and i am VERY sorry,but something is really starting to bother me,our aikido school(aikikai)has many instuctors but only one cheif instuctor,and when is asked one of the instuctors how long it took aikido to start working as a self defense he said twenty years to START workin,the CHIEF instructor said 6 months to a year ,any comments
How long is a piece of string? (Jun Akiyama)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 10-10-2004, 11:52 PM   #13
xuzen
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Seriously Josh,

How old are you, what's with the massive preoccupation with SD, dude? Are you a victim of bullying, is your life being threaten in any way? If is any of the above, learning a MA to counter them is too slow, seek professional help, like counsellor, Woman's Aid shelter, police, you get the idea.

Having said the above: Aikido against your scrawny little kid sister - 3 months, Aikido against a hulking Sumo grand champion - infinitely long time.

Again having said the above, if you seriously want to use aikido effectively, 1 year max. Here is how, buy yourself a one way ticket to Tokyo. Enrol in the Senshusei course of the Yoshinkan Aikido Hombu dojo in Tokyo of course. Spend one year as a live in student, training with the Tokyo Metropolitan police and Tokyo riot police force. After the one year is up, come back to this website, post again and tell us have your view change or not.

Only drawback, it can get really expensive to live in Tokyo and the course fee does not come cheap, it helps to have a sponsor. Nonetheless, that does not stop thousand of aspiring MA flocking to the course.

There, hope this helps,
Boon.

Last edited by xuzen : 10-10-2004 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Grammatical error

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-11-2004, 12:30 AM   #14
xuzen
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Oh here is another method, maybe cheaper...

I also know that the shaolin temple in Henan province and Southern Shaolin in Fujian province of China take in live in students. It is tough course to get in, for the locals anyway because of demand for places far exceed available places. But for foreigner with money to spare...

Many graduates get lucrative employement in the private security industry (bodyguards for the rich and famous), some get lucky break in the Far East Movie industry (e.g., Jet Li). Anyhow, most graduates show a massive improvement in their SD ability.

This option is maybe cheaper, sensing that China is still a developing country, but I bet after the Beijing Olympics, things are going to get much more expensive there.

Hope this helps too,

boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:05 AM   #15
raul rodrigo
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Seriously Josh,

Again having said the above, if you seriously want to use aikido effectively, 1 year max. Here is how, buy yourself a one way ticket to Tokyo. Enrol in the Senshusei course of the Yoshinkan Aikido Hombu dojo in Tokyo of course. Spend one year as a live in student, training with the Tokyo Metropolitan police and Tokyo riot police force. After the one year is up, come back to this website, post again and tell us have your view change or not.

There, hope this helps,
Boon.

I have a friend who took the Senshusei course in Tokyo and when he came back home, ran into a mugger with a knife. Used his training and broke the guy's wrist with kote gaeshi. Good enough for you?


R
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Old 10-11-2004, 01:03 PM   #16
stern9631
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i know i have posted many threads on this subject and i am VERY sorry,but something is really starting to bother me,our aikido school(aikikai)has many instuctors but only one cheif instuctor,and when is asked one of the instuctors how long it took aikido to start working as a self defense he said twenty years to START workin,the CHIEF instructor said 6 months to a year ,any comments
I find that looking for the martial root of these techniques makes it easier to train. Find out where the jabs, hooks, leg sweeps and elbows are.
These are not in the non-punitive nature of Aikido, but they may help you train and then also give you a real choice about how you apply a technique. There is no CHOICE to be non-violent unless you know how to be violent.
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:14 PM   #17
Bronson
 
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
There is no CHOICE to be non-violent unless you know how to be violent.
Where have I heard that before.....

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:39 PM   #18
kienergy1234
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Re: twenty years ?

thanms for all the posts,they are very helpful
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:22 PM   #19
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: twenty years ?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It doesn't matter what style a person studies, how long they have studied, or how man dan rankings a person may have when it comes to self-defense. It will depend a little on the instructor as the information has to be, to some degree valid, but more as a whole on the individual practitioner.

It is how the individual reacts to the stress of a "real life" encounter. None of your "classroom" training can prepare you for the real world. We train under ideal circumstances. Outside of the classroom all safety restraints are removed, ie the attacker does mean you bodily harm.

When Aikido or any martial art becomes effective is not a relevant question, in my opinion.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:40 PM   #20
Raziel
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Re: twenty years ?

I think it is depends how your sensei teach you the technique. It will be good if the sensei (like mine) teach you those Aikido technique in practical way, just like how you do ikyo in different situation. That's why I always prefer to train with 'pratical' Aikido technique rather than keep on practice those Aikido technique without understand how to use them in real life fighting.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:56 PM   #21
Aikidoiain
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Re: twenty years ?

I have no "belt" in Aikido, but after only 3 months of informal lessons I was able to defend myself in a real attack. That was Tomiki Aikido though.

My informal training in that style continued for a good 10 years. I've just begun "formal" training in Aikikai, and I'm not training for self-defense any more.

Belts and rank don't really matter. It's down to the person's ability to apply techniques without hesitation if attacked, that's all that counts at the end of the day.

After a few months Tomiki training, I sparred with a 1st Dan Karate man, and he couldn't touch me - I had him in joint locks in seconds. He just didn't know how to deal with Aikido. He said he was amazed that I was that good after such a short time. Aikido just felt natural to me - it suited my personality.

Now I'm training in Aikikai to try and get fit and maybe relax.



Iain.

Last edited by Aikidoiain : 10-16-2004 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 10-16-2004, 11:25 PM   #22
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote:
None of your "classroom" training can prepare you for the real world.
Lyle,

I agree with everything in your post but this. I think that this is exactly the purpose of "classroom training." Endo Seishiro Shihan has said that we train in Aikido to keep "everyday mind" in even the most stressful situations. This is more important than any technique I might learn.

Charles Hill
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Old 10-17-2004, 02:02 AM   #23
Aikidoiain
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Re: twenty years ?

That's what I meant too Charles, although I didn't word it as well!


Iain.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:41 PM   #24
Ordonez, Carlos
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Re: twenty years ?

Lyle,

It sounds so depresive to "fully" learn a technique in 20 years, but I think it's true. My sensei has an 8 year traing in Aikido with 15 years training in Kung Fu, and he said to us last time: "Expect to fully learn a technique in maybe 15 to 20 years". But in your asistance, I have a friend who practice aikido for 3 months and was playing soccer one day. He trew a ball to a guys face unintencially and hit the guy. The other guy was very angry and trow himself at him. He defend himself without hesitation with a very bad applied kote gaishi and send the guy to the floor stoping the fight.

I bet in 20 years kote gaishi will be a part of him as writing or tying his shoes.
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:48 PM   #25
paw
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Re: twenty years ?

Quote:
Carlos Ordoņez wrote:
It sounds so depresive to "fully" learn a technique in 20 years, but I think it's true.
I think it depends it depends what you mean by "learn".

If by "learn" you mean understand the technique intellectually, that should happen in a matter of minutes. If it doesn't I'd think about changing instructors.

If by "learn" you mean understand the technique and be able to teach the technique to another person, that may take months or years.

If by "learn" you mean get the basics down and physically perform the technique with a compliant partner, that should happen in a matter of minutes. If it doesn't I'd think about changing instructors.

If by "learn" you mean be able to perform the technique against someone who is offering a bit of resistance, that may take months or years, depending on how much resistance and who is resisting.

If by "learn" you mean be able to perform the technique every time, without fail, against anyone on the planet....that may never happen.

But your milage may vary.....


Regards,

Paul
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