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Old 10-08-2004, 12:49 AM   #51
balazs
Dojo: Honshin/Budapest
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Someone mentioned 'sincere' attacks some posts ago.
Recently I had an argument about this kind of attack with a black belt who joined our training while practicing at another dojo. He scolded our white belts for not attacking sincerely, which meant that they hit him while keeping their own balances. He explained that one has to throw all his/her weight into the attack if it is intended to be sincere.
After that we had a chance to see their training and it is true, if you attack with keeping your balance there, they send you back to try again and again until they are satisfied with you almost completely destroying your position with the very attack, so that all nage has to do is stepping aside and pushing you into the air.
So I think this kind of thinking is present in Aikido, so I can understand the 'why teaching to be unbalanced' question. Some places they do teach you that way, yes.
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:23 AM   #52
thomas_dixon
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Ok, so basically you're afraid that if you're in a fight and someone tries to throw you, you're going to revert to your Aikido training and allow yourself to be thrown like you would practicing on the mat?
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:49 AM   #53
shihonage
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Balazs Szabo wrote:
Someone mentioned 'sincere' attacks some posts ago.
Recently I had an argument about this kind of attack with a black belt who joined our training while practicing at another dojo. He scolded our white belts for not attacking sincerely, which meant that they hit him while keeping their own balances. He explained that one has to throw all his/her weight into the attack if it is intended to be sincere.
After that we had a chance to see their training and it is true, if you attack with keeping your balance there, they send you back to try again and again until they are satisfied with you almost completely destroying your position with the very attack, so that all nage has to do is stepping aside and pushing you into the air.
So I think this kind of thinking is present in Aikido, so I can understand the 'why teaching to be unbalanced' question. Some places they do teach you that way, yes.
In proper Aikido, the strike should be sincere and have power behind it but uke should try to keep his balance during the attack.

I think Okinawan Karate attacks show how the attacks should be done.
Mr. Kenji Ushiro has shown some impressive things on Aiki Expo tapes.
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:54 AM   #54
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Balazs Szabo wrote:
After that we had a chance to see their training and it is true, if you attack with keeping your balance there, they send you back to try again and again until they are satisfied with you almost completely destroying your position with the very attack, so that all nage has to do is stepping aside and pushing you into the air.
This is unfortunate. I wonder how many people practicing out there in the wild train this way.

I'd pose the question, but since obviously noone on this board would attack that way I don't think we'd get an accurate picture. <wry grin>

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:04 AM   #55
balazs
Dojo: Honshin/Budapest
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
This is unfortunate. I wonder how many people practicing out there in the wild train this way.

I'd pose the question, but since obviously noone on this board would attack that way I don't think we'd get an accurate picture. <wry grin>
Yes, I agree they are under-represented here .
Many places I visit they emphasize very much what the uke is expected to do, correcting my attacks with lengthy explanations. I think they have a picture in their heads about an 'ideal' uke behavior, and feel uncomfortable with ukes who don't follow that.

I confess long years ago I had a similar way of thinking - instructing my one little dojo I preferred to show techniques where the uke could do all the flying ukemis I thought necessary for the waza to look 'nice', and chose only those guys for ukemi who were able to perform the way I liked it. Then I had to go to the country to teach beginners and it happened some times that I had no 'uke escort'.
I felt terrible when all my beautiful throws were spoiled by unexperienced ukes who just banged onto the ground, no flying ...

It was that time I began to think over what a 'good' technique meant, and what relationship it bore with 'good-looking' techniques.
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:37 AM   #56
Ian Upstone
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

I think it boils down to the fact that the techniques we practise that force uke to breakfall aren't always specifically aimed at being 'throws' (e.g. kotegaeshi / hiji-ate etc) - despite how they are responded to when we train. The breakfalls are merely ukes safest/most efficient way of receiving the technique.

Last edited by Ian Upstone : 10-08-2004 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 10-08-2004, 05:55 AM   #57
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Balazs Szabo wrote:
Someone mentioned 'sincere' attacks some posts ago.
Recently I had an argument about this kind of attack with a black belt who joined our training while practicing at another dojo. He scolded our white belts for not attacking sincerely, which meant that they hit him while keeping their own balances. He explained that one has to throw all his/her weight into the attack if it is intended to be sincere.
After that we had a chance to see their training and it is true, if you attack with keeping your balance there, they send you back to try again and again until they are satisfied with you almost completely destroying your position with the very attack, so that all nage has to do is stepping aside and pushing you into the air.
So I think this kind of thinking is present in Aikido, so I can understand the 'why teaching to be unbalanced' question. Some places they do teach you that way, yes.
While it is quite true that on the street you can experience committed attacks that are, in reality, over committed attacks, to train to deal only with incompetent opponents makes no sense at all. This way of training is detrimental to the student and is detrimental to the art. This kind of silly approach gives Aikido a bad name.

You can tell if an attack is "committed" by how hard it hits when you fail to get out of the way. Anyone who advocates going off balence in order to strike doesn't understand striking. You can't strike properly when you are off balance. You will hit harder and more effectively if you keep your balance.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 10-08-2004 at 05:59 AM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:00 AM   #58
Mark Balogh
Dojo: Mushinkan Dojo, Guildford
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

I like the last post very much, bravo George S. Ledyard!
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Old 10-08-2004, 12:20 PM   #59
suren
Dojo: Aikido of Silicon Valley
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
In proper Aikido, the strike should be sincere and have power behind it but uke should try to keep his balance during the attack.

I think Okinawan Karate attacks show how the attacks should be done.
Exactly. When I was practicing that we were not allowed to move our upper body during a strike. Even shoulder should stay where it is because that gets you off balance and gives your opponent a hint about your next movement.
What is the meaning of applying any technique if your opponent gets off balance himself? Just get out of his way!
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:38 PM   #60
vanstretch
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Jordan, you have a greater chance of falling down than getting into a fight. So why not embrace the idea of not "imbalance" but moving in a balanced manner. These aikido breakfalls and rolls are ways of taking our balance back after sensing our balance being taken(adjusting accordingly). Ukemi and balance ARE interrealted, and IMHO you are partially correct in that we do "train our bodies to accept"; to accept anything and go with it, not butt heads with it.
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Old 10-08-2004, 11:50 PM   #61
bob_stra
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

I think - because the artificiality of it all - we only ever get to see half the picture. Sure, tori is the "thrower" and uke is the "receiver". But why should this make uke the weaker, submissive partner?

Uke = receives force then uses it TO HIS ADVANTAGE
Tori/nage = Applies force TO HIS ADVANTAGE

But also

Uke = Applies force TO HIS ADVANTAGE
Tori/nage = receives force then uses it TO HIS ADVANTAGE

IMHO, the "how to use force to your advantage" stuff seems to be taught from "Tori/Nage's" p.o.v, but much less so from "Uke's" p.o.v. You get ukemi, but
think abt how little attention is given to developing atemi in most places.

"Like most beginners, you attacked me wrong! Hit me like this."

"Why?"

"Because I said so"

(with apologies to SNL and Jim Carey)

Perhaps this is because we've taken a whole (combat) and split into into digestible pieces for sake of learning. *Then* we try to extrapolate based on an incomplete picture.

(I don't know why throwing became the more focused on half, except it more readily illustrates the point of force redirection. Perhaps there are arts out there that use striking to illustrate this? I saw a clip of San Shou once where that happened. Guy pushes you, you use the push to turn your pelvis (taisabaki) and fire out a strike at him).

So - in being "uke", maybe you are learning how to counteract his force? Even thought it's not mentioned / glorified?

'Cause if you think about it, you're connected to him and he is to you. If you're off balance, *both of you* are off balance.

Then the act of throwing isn't so much abt off balancing the other guy as it is tripping both of you up, but only falling over on one side (him).

(my $0.02 based on judo, aikido and Sonnon's IOUF stuff. Spend it how you wish :-)
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Old 10-09-2004, 03:18 PM   #62
Yokaze
 
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

When I work with the students in my dojo, I am encouraged to resist in any way I feel necessary. If the technique is done correctly, there is no resisting it.

For instance, being just shy of 2 meters tall and a man of unusual balance, I am very skilled at resisting Shihonage. The nage ends up with my arm behind my head and absolutely no control of my balance. Even Dan students have had difficulties with me. Finally, someone figured out that, because I am so tall, extension is absolutely vital to throwing me. For a shorter person, a little bit of laziness is okay, because it ends up being enough to take that uke off balance. For me, if you are even a bit lax in your extension, I can defeat the throw.

Because of that, everyone in the dojo (including myself) learned a valuable lesson in the execution of Shihonage, and we all improved because of it.

So resist! Just remember that you are also responsible for your own safety, which is why ukemi is such a huge deal in Aikido.

Besides, it's very fun to watch someone try to throw you over and over again with no success, only to improve and succeed right before your eyes. For me, hitting the mat is always the most satisfying when the nage had to work for it (technique-wise, not with strength.)

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

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Old 10-13-2004, 04:24 AM   #63
balazs
Dojo: Honshin/Budapest
Location: Budapest
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Re: Opinions and thoughts please...

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
When I work with the students in my dojo, I am encouraged to resist in any way I feel necessary. If the technique is done correctly, there is no resisting it.

For instance, being just shy of 2 meters tall and a man of unusual balance, I am very skilled at resisting Shihonage. The nage ends up with my arm behind my head and absolutely no control of my balance. Even Dan students have had difficulties with me. Finally, someone figured out that, because I am so tall, extension is absolutely vital to throwing me. For a shorter person, a little bit of laziness is okay, because it ends up being enough to take that uke off balance. For me, if you are even a bit lax in your extension, I can defeat the throw.

Because of that, everyone in the dojo (including myself) learned a valuable lesson in the execution of Shihonage, and we all improved because of it.

So resist! Just remember that you are also responsible for your own safety, which is why ukemi is such a huge deal in Aikido.

Besides, it's very fun to watch someone try to throw you over and over again with no success, only to improve and succeed right before your eyes. For me, hitting the mat is always the most satisfying when the nage had to work for it (technique-wise, not with strength.)

While I understand a lot with what this post says, resistance on uke's side is one of the most problematic issues ...
First, there is 'construcive' resisting, and it is clear this one is what you talk about. This way a teacher or a senior student can help the less experienced to find a way where the given technique works best.
The problem is that with the experience I possess at my level and with the knowledge I have concerning what kind of technique is under execution:

1) I can easily make it impossible for anyone under my level to do the waza;
2) I can make it very hard for anyone on the same level as me (mostly turning the whole thing into wrestling);
3) With people well above my level I can't do much.

I am able to achieve 1) and 2) because knowing the waza at hand is a great advantage, I know exactly at which moment my chance to resist comes and what I should do to make tori's life harder.

This problem comes to be argued over and over here, as successful resistance against a technique is something like an ego boost for many people.

So while I agree that a certain amount of resistance is necessary to improve, I would like to point out that one should not utilize the fact that the he/she knows exactly what and how tori will try to do to unbalance him/her. Not easy to feel the difference.
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