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Old 10-06-2004, 07:38 AM   #26
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
One other point too often neglected. The shoulders have to be strong enough. In addition to all the technical recommendations on how to properly fall, one needs to have enough strength in the ligaments and muscles of the shoulder to protect the joint, not only from direct impact, but also shock. If the shoulder is too weak/loose, even a proper fall may hurt as it moves around too much. The same thing, by the way, is also true for the hips. - - - and the best way to strengthen the joints is weight training - I'd recommend you get a good trainer - preferrably an exercise physiologist - show the motions, body position, etc. of ukemi and ask for assistance in both general power training and that specific to what you're doing.

Best
I know you've given me this advice in the past, now , maybe since I'm getting hurt, I'll actually follow it!

Thanks, everyone!

Jeanne (soon to be member of frequent flyer club) Shepard
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Old 10-06-2004, 02:40 PM   #27
billybob
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Ellis Amdur said
Quote:
and the best way to strengthen the joints is weight training
i strongly and emphatically disagree with this widely held opinion. weight training is based upon isolating certain muscles and strengthening them. this is the OPPOSITE of learning whole body coordination as we do in aikido. IMHO best way to help body stay 'together' is by learning how it works - through aikido, or tai chi, etc.

billybob
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:52 AM   #28
giriasis
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

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i strongly and emphatically disagree with this widely held opinion. weight training is based upon isolating certain muscles and strengthening them. this is the OPPOSITE of learning whole body coordination as we do in aikido. IMHO best way to help body stay 'together' is by learning how it works - through aikido, or tai chi, etc.
Are you just stating this as an opinion? Because my understanding of medical fact is that when you strengthen your muscles you end up tightening the ligaments connecting to the joints, thereby, protecting them. This is especially relevant related to you knees. Maybe some of our medical experts here could explain it better than me.

Learning whole body coordination is one thing, and training in aikido itself conditions our bodies to doing aikido, but if a person doesn't have the necessary physical strength to maintain the abuse we put our bodies through then we can suffer injury, or at least be more prone to it.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:18 AM   #29
billybob
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Anne Marie,

I offer it as an alternative to 'medical fact'. The thought was first expressed to me by a certified rolfer.
Also, in China 'medical fact' would be stated entirely differently than what you stated. Why would tight ligaments make for a more stable joint? My shoulders used to come out of joint often - not fun.
I was told by my chief (hospital corpsman) in the navy that if my shoulders kept coming out i would have to have them sliced open and 'wrapped', thereby tightening the ligaments. i talked to people who had had the surgery and they confirmed that their arms stayed in joint, and hurt much of the time, and were stiff. I continued rolfing therapy and now that my upper spine is free to move again - my shoulders stay in joint. thus, greater freedom of movement in my spine, not tighter ligaments around the joint made me healthier.

i can only offer personal testimony, but my experience runs opposite to what you call 'medical fact'.

and i offer it here to help, not just to disagree

billybob
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:40 PM   #30
giriasis
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Why would tight ligaments make a joint more stable? First I'm not thinking of "tight ligaments" but rather "tighter ligaments" when they are already too lose to begin with. My best example I could give you relates to the knees. If a person does not adequately build strength in their hamstrings, abductors, adductors, and quads, their knee caps get lose, thereby, making you more prone to injury. If you do proper exercises you will develop strength in the muscles and the knee cap will be more secure on the knee and help prevent things like ACL tears. However, if they are overly tight or there are muscle imbalances (i.e. strong hams and quads but weak abductors/ adductors) then there is a whole other set of problems. (i.e. One woman who used to train in my dojo has done spinning so much that she can't sit in seiza anymore because it's too painful.)

I'm sure when it comes to things like rotator cuff tears regarding the shoulders, the similar theory applies. I can't be more specific because I'm not a medical doctor although I have taken an assertive effort to understand the mechanics of the human body and fitness in general.

My comments are also based on personal experience with weight training and I have found that it does help my aikido and keeps my joints more protected. I also discovered that training in aikido 5 days a week has no way brought me near the strength gains I needed to make in order to get my body in better physical shape. The key is to find moves and exercises that simulate what you do in aikido. And, there are plenty of traditional weight training exercises that can do this. Yes, you isolate the muscles, but I don't use machines which really use just one muscle group. I use free weights which activate use of more than one muscle group. I also found that it is necessary to follow the weight training with flexibility training so that you don't let your muscle get to tight so you end up losing your range of motion required in aikido, thereby causing a whole other set of problems.

P.S. Forgive my ignorance, but what is rolfing?

Last edited by giriasis : 10-07-2004 at 07:44 PM.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-08-2004, 07:22 AM   #31
billybob
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Anne Marie,

Forgive me if i came across too opinionated. I will not argue with your success! If weight training is working for you that is terriffic. I also hear you saying that 'balanced tension' makes for a stable joint and there i agree completely. If i were truly expert i wouldn't have a crutch for an avatar.

Rolfing is a physical therapy developed by Dr. Ida Rolf. She was a biochemist and noted that connective tissue in fetuses develops into muscle, bone, and well - connective tissue. This allowed her to treat 'chronic' physical deformities with intelligently applied pressure. She taught that stretching the tissue allowed it to take on its natural shape. i have always believed the therapy is more concerned with the nervous system; but that's my opinion. i just bought a book on chi kung, which claims to aid muscle and nervous system at the same time, by developing 'internal strength', which i think we can call 'ki'.

(i hope jun doesn't kick us for highjacking this thread)

billybob
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:25 AM   #32
giriasis
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Thanks for the explanation and it sounds good to me, and if you have had success with it, who am I to argue?

And to keep it on topic, these are just things Jeanne can consider regarding the problems with her shoulder, and since she's pretty darned intelligent, I'm sure she will

~~~back to your regularly scheduled thread~~~

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:33 AM   #33
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Rolfing can be very helpful with certain physical injuries - (I've had a number of sessions thruout my life), but it will do nothing to help with joint stabilization, when the joint is injuried. (Rolfing is a very forceful massage that attempts to tear fascia/scar tissue that is believed to bind muscles and prevent full function). Rolfing has done nothing to help my rotator cuff problems, but very specific weight training, with mindful attention to how one organizes the body as one lifts, has done wonders. The same for my knees. Had a number of Hellerwork sessions on my legs (a Rolfing offshoot) with no improvement. A combination of weight training and tien gan (strength/flexibility exercises from bagua) has helped immensely.

As for David's comments on weight training, simply incorrect. Proper weight training brings the entire body into play. Exercise physiologists have found, for example that Olympic style weight lifters are, on the indexes of strength, power, flexibility and joint stability to be the best athletes in the world. Yes, if you exclusively do isolation exercises for body building, one can exercises for form, not function. But that is not weight training, per se.

It is interesting to note that the t'ai chi practitioners of the Chen Village do weight training. They practice with heavy weapons, some over 40 pounds and do forms with a heavy ball (size of a bowling ball). Some Yang t'ai chi practitioners used a massive ball - 100s of pounds which they rolled - this was demonstrated in the Berlin Olympics in 1936.

As for weight training, the elder Osawa sensei of the Aikikai (the epitome of the softest aikido) heard I did so, and asked me to take his son, (current shihan of the Honbu) along with me, which I did, introducing him to weight training. Osawa Sensei winked at me and said, basically, "My kids too weak. He needs to build up his muscles a little."

Best

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Old 10-08-2004, 01:12 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Not to mention the exploits of Dreager and company, when rousting the various judo groups in Japan, the imperial guard amoung them I believe. Interesting article most likey to be found on ejmas (Joseph Svinth's site). That was quite a story!

RT

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Old 10-14-2004, 02:27 PM   #35
billybob
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Ellis Amdur stated very clearly and concisely:
Quote:
Rolfing can be very helpful with certain physical injuries - (I've had a number of sessions thruout my life), but it will do nothing to help with joint stabilization, when the joint is injuried. (Rolfing is a very forceful massage that attempts to tear fascia/scar tissue that is believed to bind muscles and prevent full function). Rolfing has done nothing to help my rotator cuff problems,
and also
Quote:
As for David's comments on weight training, simply incorrect. Proper weight training brings the entire body into play. Exercise physiologists have found, for example that Olympic style weight lifters are, on the indexes of strength, power, flexibility and joint stability to be the best athletes in the world.
Sir, an inaccurate description of rolfing - even if given by your rolf therapist. most of their work is done in the nervous system. tearing fascia would be more damaging - getting motor neurons to fire in the way they did Prior to injury is the mechanism of cure - which is probably why the other therapy you mentioned helped. And to answer the second part - you've given a very well crafted and narrowed response. i must doubt western scientific evaluation of athletic prowess. the navy recommended the findings of a spinal posture researcher who implanted his (single) subject with pressure detectors in the disks between the vertebrae!!!! what sort of study is that?

and olympians are just that - the best. the average lifter of weights walks like he (or she) has
something poking them in the rear. they tear good muscle and overbulk it. they simply are not flexible.

great that Therapeutic weight training helped you, but would you recommend it to a person with healthy joints? my single point is that yoga, chi kung, or just continued aikido training would be better advice to give

billybob
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:25 PM   #36
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Most of my 40 plus years in weight training have been equivocal, because I was doing it on my own. Recently got the help of an exercise physiologist - i've demonstrated the range of movements of the various martial arts I do, and he has architected a training program specific to both that and whole body integration of movement (including Olympic style lifts). Like any other discipline, one needs a teacher. I had a leading Beijing T'ai chi teacher tell me that most of the t'ai chi he saw in the west reminded him of ghosts - limp armed, flacid. I've heard a similarly dismissive comments about a lot of yoga from master teachers of Ashtanga. My only point here is that like anything else, high level function requires high level teaching (BTW - my first rolfer was Ida Rolf's son - which proves the limits of lineage - truly a vile experience - I've had wonderful rolfers since, including one who reset a vertebrae using a combination of alignment with me moving against resistance - totally unlike a chiropractic adjustment).

All of that said, I stand by my recommendation re the shoulder. Breakfalls are high impact, and the stabilizers and connective tissue needs to be both strong and flexible.

Best

Ellis Amdur

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Old 10-14-2004, 11:22 PM   #37
Erik
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

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As for David's comments on weight training, simply incorrect. Proper weight training brings the entire body into play. Exercise physiologists have found, for example that Olympic style weight lifters are, on the indexes of strength, power, flexibility and joint stability to be the best athletes in the world. Yes, if you exclusively do isolation exercises for body building, one can exercises for form, not function. But that is not weight training, per se.
An interesting aside is that these guys have some of the highest verital leaps of any athletes with some of them reaching the mid 30 inches. Just a meaningless tidbit that surprised the heck out of me when I learned it.

Anyways, virtually every high caliber athlete in the world trains with weights. I'd bet it's something on the order of 95%, or more, of Olympic athletes which leaves me to wonder why folks in this art can be so rigid in their resistance to it.

A link to some shoulder exercises

Last edited by Erik : 10-14-2004 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:45 AM   #38
billybob
 
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Re: Shoulder pain in break falls

Well, I hope I haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Good results are good results.

I got my dander up over the 'everyone knows' weight training is the best way to strengthen joints.

at the risk of being wrong i challenge conventional wisdom, and i certainly don't know it all. but that is the point. once we become dogmatic and rigid in our thinking then intelligent inquiry is finished.

thank you for your arguments. they've helped me.

billybob
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