Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-03-2004, 12:30 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 3, 2004:

Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 03:05 AM   #2
Clayton Drescher
 
Clayton Drescher's Avatar
Dojo: Beach Cities Aikido
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Just warmup stretching causes a little bit of pain. You gain confidence once you know what pain might be coming with a technique and then knowing you can overcome it. You give a more committed attack knowing that you can take whatever the person dishes out.

P.S.---this applies to all techniques except nikyo ura and sankyo.....those just hurt for no good reason ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 03:16 AM   #3
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Discomfort, yes. Pain, no.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 06:34 AM   #4
Tom Kaluzynski
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

That is a good question. There is physical pain when you first start, your muscles get achy. There is physical pain sometimes when you are learning a technique, if for example you fall incorrectly. So I would say, yes it is necessary. It also depends on you. Some people are really stiff and hard, so they will feel more pain, also everyone has a different level of pain threshold.
It's like life, there's pain. So be creative with it. That being said, if something feels really "wrong" that's not creative pain. I'm not a masochist or anything; it's just there is pain in learning, and in aikido it manifests on a physical level sometimes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 07:26 AM   #5
Jonathan Thielen
 
Jonathan Thielen's Avatar
Dojo: Greensboro Kodokan Aikido Dojo
Location: Greensboro
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I think that pain can be an excellent "teacher"...for myself, I know that (especially with respect to rolls and falls) if it hurts, I've probably done something wrong, and need to look for ways to soften/round myself out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 09:16 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,710
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

IMHO, never ignore or endure physical pain. There are a lot of us who learned to overcome pain only to be overcome ourselves by enduring chronic overuse injuries that are permanent.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 03:32 PM   #7
Goetz Taubert
Location: Germany
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 40
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

In my opinion the source of pain until now in the most replys is thought to be external or caused by accident.

I am familiar with a kind of pain that derives from the strive for correct posture/gesture, relaxation against muscular tension i.e. while trying to get softer or to move unwillingly. Such kind of pain seems to be very helpfull to incorporate aiki priciples or - step by step - more effective posture/gesture.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 03:58 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

"Experiencing" some pain comes with the territory in aikido, as in any physical exercise. "Putting up with" unnecessary infliction of pain by others is not necessary.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 07:39 PM   #9
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Pain might not be required to learn Aikido, but it certainly speeds up the process.

Everything from making your breakfalls better (so they don't hurt) to understanding what direction to move in and when is facilitated by pain. Learning Aikido without pain would be a little like learning to juggle without ever dropping a ball. Difficult, unlikely, drawn out and probably unrealistic.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 08:08 PM   #10
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Another thought...

Pushing through the pain of sore muscles from general training, pushing the pain of exhaustion after an hour and a half of hajime training or pushing through the pain of yonkajo applied against the same bruise again and again are all ways of "building character" or "developing spirit".

It's probably more accurate to say successfully going through the above are ways of showing your character or showing your spirit rather than developing it. In any event, physical pain in any prolonged, difficult and physical training is to be expected.

I am not advocating training while injured with a joint or some other debilitating injury, but training through exhaustion (physical and/or mental) and with muscle soreness is one way of gaining self-confidence.

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 11:04 PM   #11
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.
Yeah me two, err I mean me too.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 11:41 PM   #12
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Without a certain dogged willingness to come back to class day after day despite bruises on my shoulders, I would never have learned to forward roll. I was *awful* at this, and it took me five months. My family looked at the bruises and wondered what on earth I'd gotten myself into. But I enjoy the skill tremendously now that I have it, and I'm glad I decided it was an acceptable level of pain.

That said, I left my previous martial art because it seemed to value pain in and of itself, as a test of character, rather than regarding it as a sign of something that needs improvement (like my dratted rolls). This was too grim for me. I see enduring pain as a step toward doing things in a way that doesn't hurt, not a destination in itself.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2004, 02:06 AM   #13
Ebyan Alvarez-Buylla
Dojo: Florida International University Aikido
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Be grateful even for hardship, setbacks, and bad people. Dealing with such obstacles is an essential part of training in Aikido.

óMorihei Ueshiba
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2004, 03:51 AM   #14
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

[insert quote here without any accompanying text to say "I agree/disagree" with this statement and/or sentence to show understanding of said quote]

Pain: tricky one. Some people I've trained with have had to experience pain as far as they were concerned to learn a technique while I would consider them complete and utter wimps as the "severe pain" was akin to that from a paper cut - perception matters and learning to deal with a greater degree of pain while maintaining a healthy respect for your body is for me an essential part of any serious martial art. So I'd come down on the side of yes
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2004, 09:01 AM   #15
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Enduring pain ? No.

Experiencing pain temporarily or discomfort ? Yes.

pain that lasts means damage is being done.

Last edited by kironin : 10-04-2004 at 09:04 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 03:56 AM   #16
aikidoka- jalta
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

i beleive that when we're training the most importaqnt thing is not to harm ourselves nor our partner, so physical pain varies from "simple pain to reach damage", in other words its not necessary to concentrate on hurting ourselves or our partners to endure pain. through years of training every person will pass in a phase that he feels pain and sure if that person is devoted to his training will overcome the pain.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 04:24 AM   #17
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

There's pain and then there's pain.... everyone experiences pain differently, so too much for one may be nothing to another. It's too subjective to quantify.

As to whether it is necessary to endure physical pain to get better at Aikido, no, I don't believe it is. Physical pain can be a great barrier to learning. Mental pain, OTOH, I think is necessary for progress. Until your ego has been sorted out you're not going to improve - he who thinks he knows it all cannot learn.

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 06:17 AM   #18
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
everyone experiences pain differently
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.

OK, Craig & Ruth, damn you for noticing the "enduring" phrase which I missed. Agreed, prolonged exposure to pain shouldn't be necessary, but temporary's good for the soul - just remember 'tis better to give than receive...

Ruth, can you give me an example of pain=barrier? The only one that I can think of for people who actually remain within aikido is ukemi-fear. If someone is unable to accept any pain (and they exist in strangely large numbers) they don't seem to continue to practice, so I wouldn't include them in the poll...

(mental pain - isn't that the true reason behind beer waza?)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 07:17 AM   #19
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I think there is a difference between pain and injury.

Pain leads to compliance. Injury leads to the kinds of maladays that are explained above. You need to know the difference in the pain of a pin vs hurting because of an injury.

What hooked me on aikido was that first nikyo. Whew, what pain and no injury!!!! I just had to learn how to do that. After a while I learned the difference between making it hurt and learning about control. Now, I focus more on control than making it hurt. But pain is what makes believers out of people that think its a dance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 09:11 AM   #20
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.
more nitpick'n

actually it's more complex than this. how you react to pain affects your experience of pain. It's a feedback loop. My emotional state of mind affects my experience of pain at any given moment.

one also needs to distinguish between nociceptive pain and neuropathic pain (http://www.helpforpain.com/arch2000dec.htm)

In physical activity we are mostly talking about the part of our nervous system that is activated in response to tissue irritation, impending injury, or actual injury. How variable and subjective is the threshold to our own conditioning and state of mind is a big question. What neuropahtic tendencies might affect our experience compared to others is important also.

For improvement, coming to understand the nature of pain and being open to what you own body is telling you is more important I think than somehow simply enduring pain.

Certainly as I get older, I feel like I have to back off sometimes because something doesn't quite feel right. It's tough because the competitive athlete in me that assumes I am invincible is always there urging to push.
I am still nursing some kind of muscle tear/strain in my chest from the last time I gave in to that. Taking more than an hour of ukem for one of my 16 year old students who is getting the hang of really laying it on - I ignored an unusual feeling of pain at one point and kept going -- not too smart.
Now I have to be careful just to stay in the game and not make it worse.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 10:07 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Another thought...

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.
Here's one! Yep, sounds like yoshinkan through and through...
Osu!
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 10:36 AM   #22
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.
Not really. It's down to how many chemical pain messages get through to your brain, and this can be altered, otherwise a large number of "recreational" drugs wouldn't be so popular.. People's natural pain perception really does vary between individuals. (/counter-nitpick)

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Ruth, can you give me an example of pain=barrier?
Yes. Any time you are attempting to engage in any activity / learning exercise and all you can think of is how much your back / wrist / knee / head is hurting! You certainly won't be taking much else on board.

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
(mental pain - isn't that the true reason behind beer waza?)
Yep. And, to a certain extent, physical pain

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 10:51 AM   #23
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Aah, Craig & Ruth, you can tell educashunal backgrounds like - my nitpick was on how pain is transmitted (engineer) which doesn't change person to person. Their receptiveness and translation of the signals involved - a different matter (and Ruth, changing perception through drugs in an argument is just plain cheating).

Pain = barrier: I'd have to disagree with your example (if I'm reading you right) as the type of pain you're mentioning is continuous rather than a barrier through pain from a specific technique? I have my own set of "always hurty" bits (due to non-aikido related injuries he hastily adds) and with this type of pain you either learn to ignore for a particular physical activity or you no longer do that activity. Again, can't see the latter type of person doing many types of physical activity, rather than ma specific.

Agree on beer!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 10:57 AM   #24
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I voted "no" because I don't think that enduring pain is necessary in order to improve your aikido.

Also, at the time I voted I was think more of pain that has resulted from an injury, i.e. the sharp pain that you're body says, "stop doing this stupid."

But then again, we do experience pain when practicing nikkyo, kotegaeshi, and doing awkward breakfalls. I still get up and move on. But is it really necessary to endure pain as a result of these to improve my aikido? "Necessary" meaning as an absolute that one "must" endure? No. Is it a part of aikido that some find helpful if it doesn't lead to serious injury? Yes.

Last edited by giriasis : 10-05-2004 at 11:00 AM.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2004, 11:08 AM   #25
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Ok, how many aikidoka does it take to come up with a deffintion for pain???

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Poll: How important is physical aesthetics in your aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 19 01-02-2007 12:28 AM
Poll: How important is right/left symmetry in your physical aikido practice? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 10 12-01-2006 08:41 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Poll: Do you think aikido instructors should be in good physical condition? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 29 09-04-2002 12:23 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate