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Old 09-30-2004, 04:20 AM   #1
Aikidoiain
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Jacket vs Knife Technique.

I was shown this while studying Hapkido. When an attacker with a knife attempts to rob you or whatever, try this - take off your jacket (as if to get your wallet), then quickly throw the jacket over the knife hand and simultaneously wrap it around the attacker's arm.

It confuses the attacker and allows you to side step and apply an ikkyo or any other joint lock to that arm - or indeed any number of other techniques. By covering the knife, you've also created a temporary shield against being cut.

Has anyone ever heard of this technique, or used it?

You could also wave your jacket in front of the knife hand as if you were bull-fighting! Once again, this confuses the attacker, thus allowing you to execute a low kick to the knee for example. Quite ingenious I think.

Another tip - always carry 2 wallets. Hide your main one about your person and leave the second one in an easy to find pocket. Put some money in the "decoy" wallet and maybe some other stuff, to make it look good. I always carry 2 wallets, in case everything goes pear-shaped!

Iain.
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Old 09-30-2004, 04:39 AM   #2
Aikidoiain
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

I meant to add, a "heavy leather type" jacket offers the most protection.

Iain.
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Old 09-30-2004, 06:00 AM   #3
DaveO
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

I've seen the technique - among several 'distractive' techniques.

Quite frankly; anyone tries that while I've got the knife in my hand; they can call themselves 'collander'. I don't mean to be rude; but it's going to be a pretty poor knife-weilder that'd be caught by something like that. Distractive techniques work great - in practice. In reality; a knife-wielder is going to be pumped on adrenaline; prepared and ready. He's going to be in control of the situation - that's the point (no pun intended) of the knife - control of the situation through domination and intimidation.

If you're going to use a jacket to distract an attacker (in the unlikely event he's standing in front of you saying 'this is a knife' and actually is dumb enough to let you take your jacket off); I strongly recommend throwing it at his head and running in the other direction.

The idea of carrying 2 wallets is useful though; it's far better to surrender a wallet than a life; and if that one's a worthless decoy; better for you.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-30-2004, 07:24 AM   #4
Aikidoiain
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Hi Dave,

I've never actually used this technique either. I just thought it sounded interesting. When I've been held at knife point, I immediately put the attacker at ease by saying something like "Okay, but just don't hurt me!". This tends to calm them down and drop their guard for a moment - then I act. Although, sometimes, as soon as I see the knife, the attacker is lying on the ground from the kick he just received! That's my preferred approach - end it quickly.

In my experience, I've noticed that these knife thugs are scared - I've seen it in their eyes, so I always tried to remain calm. It has always been my belief that if someone really wants to use the knife, they'll simply walk straight up to you and stab you rather than "presenting" the knife to you. In such an instance, there would be no defense.

I've also spoken to teenagers who regularly carry knives, and they say "it's for their protection".In Glasgow, knife crime is a big problem. I've even seen 10 year olds carrying them!

Like I said, if someone shows you the knife, they're probably trying to frighten you - though, I would NEVER underestimate such a threat. I must stress that point. Every attacker is different, so I never drop my guard.

Yes, the jacket technique is a distraction, but apparently the Sensei who showed me this had tried it and it worked! So, you can never tell what an attacker may do.


Iain.
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Old 09-30-2004, 09:31 AM   #5
SeiserL
 
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

IMHO, most real knife "attacks" are actually "ambush and assinations". You would never see it coming or have a chance to take you jacket off. If you can, you are dealing with a real amateur. Don't risk cutting up your nice jacket.

Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:51 PM   #6
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.
Bought it, but haven't had a chance to read it yet....gotta support our friends in the community

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:55 PM   #7
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
The idea of carrying 2 wallets is useful though; it's far better to surrender a wallet than a life; and if that one's a worthless decoy; better for you.
I don't need two as my real one doesn't have anything in it anyway

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-30-2004, 03:02 PM   #8
Shane Mokry
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

You know, they make a small 25 caliber pistol that fits in a wallet holster for just such an occasion.
Nothing says "oh crap" like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Shane
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Old 09-30-2004, 05:34 PM   #9
Aikidoiain
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Sorry Shane,

This isn't the States you know! Guns aren't allowed here - nor is it legal to carry a knife for that matter.

Best form of self-defense is to stay indoors!


Iain.
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Old 10-01-2004, 02:19 AM   #10
Keith_k
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

I've seen this technique. The effectiveness is a bit limited, you have to get enough distance between yourself and the attacker to take off your jacket, then use it effectively. It's mainly a last resort technique, when you have to try SOMETHING. Belts are actually preferred, as they are easier to remove and can also function as a whip-like weapon. Whip the belt toward the attacker's face and eyes, keeping him at enough distance for escape. If the attacker uses the knife to attack, use the belt or jacket to entangle, then apply technique. It's not much, but it's something.
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Old 10-01-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
deepsoup
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Is there something about hapkido that fills people with a desire to take their clothes off? (Whilst robbing them of all contact with reality.)
I suggest wearing a reinforced bowler hat at all times. That way you can defend yourself whilst keeping your pants on. It worked all the time for John Steed though, admittedly, not quite so well for Oddjob.
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:22 AM   #12
Shane Mokry
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Iain,

I forget how lucky we are here. When we start talking about weapons vs. weapons, I always think of firearms as superior to anything else.Just like the long sword to the short sword. It provides distance. But carrying a handgun is also a great responsibility.Perhaps, If it really is that bad over there you might want to develop a "limp" and get yourself a nice fancy walking cane. I think that anyone who has the information of knowing the most likely attack is going to be and doesn't prepare for it ...well... I alway try not to leave an openings or chances. Here in Louisiana, we had a bad rash of car jackings. People would be sitting at intersections waiting for the stoplight to change and a thug wold come up, shoot them in the head, pull them out of their car and drive away in it. The state made it legal to shoot anyone approaching your car if you suspected they might be attempting a car jacking. Since then I haven't heard of one more car jacking in Louisiana.

By the way, how's your training coming? Have you noticed any improvement in your condition since starting at the new dojo?

Shane
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:37 AM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, most real knife "attacks" are actually "ambush and assinations". You would never see it coming or have a chance to take you jacket off. If you can, you are dealing with a real amateur. Don't risk cutting up your nice jacket.

Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.
Lynn is right here! In the film Surviving Edged Weapons they did interviews with alarge number of police officers who had survived edged weapons attacks on the street. Not one of them knew it was an edged weapons stituation until after they had been stabbed, usually several times.

If the person has shown you the knife, they most likely have another goal, such as your money. Compliance may the best answer. The one time I had a knife pulled on me the guy just wanted to scare me, when I didn't react as he expected and simply pointed out the trouble he'd be in if he stabbed me, he went away.Of course I knew him by name and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:35 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...
hehehehehehe...

RT

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Old 10-01-2004, 01:59 PM   #15
Aikidoiain
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

To Shane,

That's quite shocking what you just said about "being legal to shoot someone who approaches your car, if you suspected it was a car-jacking!" Sounds like a very grey area indeed. What if someone is just lost, and looking for directions? Wow - that's scary man.

Glasgow's bad enough with knives as it is. That's why I want to move up to the Scottish Highlands, out of the city.

As for my Aikido training - I'll keep you all posted in the journal I've just started.

Be careful out there!

Iain.
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Old 10-01-2004, 02:36 PM   #16
Shane Mokry
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Iain,

I never heard of any actual shooting of carjackers. I think the law itself provided enough deterrent that the car jackers decided to find another way to steal cars. There is alot to be said for allowing your citizens to defend themselves.

Shane
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Old 10-01-2004, 02:43 PM   #17
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
I've seen this technique. The effectiveness is a bit limited, you have to get enough distance between yourself and the attacker to take off your jacket, then use it effectively. It's mainly a last resort technique, when you have to try SOMETHING. Belts are actually preferred, as they are easier to remove and can also function as a whip-like weapon. Whip the belt toward the attacker's face and eyes, keeping him at enough distance for escape. If the attacker uses the knife to attack, use the belt or jacket to entangle, then apply technique. It's not much, but it's something.
Yeah i agree belts are much better.
You just unbuckle it, whip it off then your trousers fall down , with any luck your attacker might just have a stroke from laughing too much. Giving you enough time to pull your trousers back up and run away.
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:55 PM   #18
Keith_k
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
David Francis wrote:
Yeah i agree belts are much better.
You just unbuckle it, whip it off then your trousers fall down , with any luck your attacker might just have a stroke from laughing too much. Giving you enough time to pull your trousers back up and run away.
I don't know about you, but I generally don't wear trousers so loose that they fall down at the slightest provocation. If this would be problem for you, then of course using a belt as a weapon probably isn't the smartest idea.
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Old 10-02-2004, 12:24 PM   #19
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Just a joke i meant no offense
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Old 10-02-2004, 09:41 PM   #20
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
David Francis wrote:
Just a joke i meant no offense
I apologise if I got riled up. It's the thing with writing, there's not way to tell tone or inflection to know who's joking and who's not.
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:19 AM   #21
Robert Jackson
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out. I've done this once and it worked great... There were a few differnces in the situation. The "attacker" was my brother and he was turned around watching tv when suddenly his head vicisouly got in my way. My shoe whapped him on the side of the head... throuogly pissing him off....

BUT his head did get out of my way.
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Old 10-05-2004, 12:42 AM   #22
Keith_k
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Robert Jackson wrote:
When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out. I've done this once and it worked great... There were a few differnces in the situation. The "attacker" was my brother and he was turned around watching tv when suddenly his head vicisouly got in my way. My shoe whapped him on the side of the head... throuogly pissing him off....

BUT his head did get out of my way.
I'm suddenly reminded of the end of the first Austin Powers movie: "Who throws a shoe? Honestly!..."
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Old 10-05-2004, 01:25 AM   #23
Bronson
 
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Quote:
Robert Jackson wrote:
When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out.
I once actually saw this in some MA magazine years ago. This was before I'd trained in anything and it still seemed like a load of dingo's kidneys.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 10-05-2004, 02:42 AM   #24
Aikidoiain
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Sean,

I think you'd have to ask a member of the World's Elite SAS about that, as they're preferred MA is Hapkido.

They may have to kill you though.


Iain.
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Old 10-05-2004, 03:19 AM   #25
Jorx
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Re: Jacket vs Knife Technique.

Nowadays no special unit trains in "standard one martial art".

And about Louisiana and shooting car jackers... Anyone seen "Bowling for Columbine"?
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