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Old 03-14-2001, 02:31 AM   #1
CraigJamieson
Dojo: Ki Federation of GB
Location: East Kilbride, Scotland
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Wink

People in hard styles,ie Karate, Kickboxing, talkabout Aikidos ineffectiveness on the 'street arena'. Has anyone ever had to use their aikido training in a real situation? Didi it work for you?
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Old 03-14-2001, 04:47 AM   #2
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
Location: UK
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This is a long discussed and difficult topic (see thread on 'does aikido really work?' etc).

My opinion in this is that aikido is more effective than striking arts in the street arena for a few reasons.

1. An aikido person would never stand toe-toe with an attacker - this is what most people try to do and is what a lot of striking arts teach first (good footwork etc seems to be taught a lot later in my experience) and is about the worst thing you can do. I think that aikido people are much less likely to get hit.

2. Sometimes kicking somebodies head off their shoulders is not appropriate if they only pushed you. By this I mean that striking arts are only able to destroy - instead of controlling the situation or suppressing the attacker.

3. Being pushed/falling over are about the worst things that can happen because on the floor you are very vunerable. Also the fall itself is how many people are seriously injured. It is very hard to push an aikidoka over - they are used to it. Also they can fall safely. Some striking arts teach ukemi but most do not. Notice how many karatedoka fall over in the UFC?

4. Aikido does not breed false confidence like punching and kicking the air and shouting does. False confidence is obviously very dangerous.

For those of you who think I am being harsh on striking arts - well perhaps I am. This is what I have learned from 3 years of karate and 2 years of penjak silat. Although I have learnt a great deal and enjoyed my practise of those arts, I genuinely believe them to be inferior to aikido.
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Old 03-14-2001, 05:32 AM   #3
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Quote:
Sam wrote:
, I genuinely believe them to be inferior to aikido.
Well, maybe your aikido but not mine.

Whoops. With a single misuse of a tired cliche I've looked like an idiot. There's a lesson in that somewhere.

andrew
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Old 03-14-2001, 06:45 AM   #4
Jim23
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Quote:
Sam wrote:

4. Aikido does not breed false confidence like punching and kicking the air and shouting does. False confidence is obviously very dangerous.
Sam,

I couldn't agree more about the false confidence (although I think this also holds true for many in aikido).

I've always said that it's the person, not the art. I met a black belt (not sure what dan) in karate a few years ago who told me a story of how one night he passed a guy getting the stuffing beat out of him by two guys. He said that it was quite brutal and he wanted to jump in to help.

The guy (karateka) was about 5' 8", 150 lb. He told me that he couldn't bring himself to do anything to help. He knew that if he had jumped in, he would have been beaten to a pulp also. So, he quit karate and took up kickboxing to experience 'real' contact.

I've also known karatekas (some below black belt) who could have easily handled those two guys and any friends who wanted to join in.

A good person with a good art is the winning combination.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-14-2001, 08:20 AM   #5
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Battle? Not I.

Have I every had to use my aikido?
Everyday.
In my work, dealing with clients,
In my home, dealing with family.
in my life, dealing with my goals.
While using the principles of Aiki,
I remain diligent and can persevere through all obstacles.
Or perhaps you meant physical confrontations?
I seem to not have these anymore.
Again, using Aiki, one can avoid such issues before they happen.
I suppose it could be said,
that to endeavor to be a master of battle may not prove mastery of anything other
than how to engage in battle.
In this, there is a fundamental difference between aikido and all other arts.
-Thank you,
Warm Regards,
Thomas Dehn

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 03-14-2001, 09:18 AM   #6
Guest5678
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Old Topic

This horse has been beat to death again and again. It really comes down to the individual. I know many people that have no MA training at all, but can kick butt big time. They have experience, which you can't teach.

I also have a female friend who was telling me about her self-defense classes and how she was being taught this technique and that technique etc... She was sounding real confident so I decided to test her. When I knew she was coming over for a visit one night I hid by the side of the house, waited for her to get out of her car and jumped on her. Took her to the ground in one second. She froze up. All the training she had, all the technique and practice, and she froze. Took some time for her to cool off again, she was really angry with me, but we laugh about it now. It certainly changed her view on learning technique and actually being able to apply it when required.

Personally, I think of the arts as tools. The tools effectiveness will vary according to who is using them..... The T-square in the hands of a master carpenter will be much more effective than in the hands of the apprentice..... know what I mean?

Dan P. - Mongo
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Old 03-14-2001, 10:08 AM   #7
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
Location: UK
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Re: Old Topic

Quote:
Mongo wrote:
This horse has been beat to death again and again. It really comes down to the individual. I know many people that have no MA training at all, but can kick butt big time. They have experience, which you can't teach.

Personally, I think of the arts as tools. The tools effectiveness will vary according to who is using them..... The T-square in the hands of a master carpenter will be much more effective than in the hands of the apprentice..... know what I mean?

Dan P. - Mongo
But the old horse won't die!

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Dan, but I have to believe that it is possible to defense oneself otherwise life would look pretty bleak.

I have learnt from experience that complex techniques do not work and that the idea of applying a certain technique perfectly in a given situation is unlikely, but I do think that a few simple yet long-learned skills will help.
For example we have an exercise where you protect the centre line with both hands in tegatana together whilst moving forward to intercept a strike from the side. I have done this exercise for six years every session and until lately wondered what it is all about.
Another person who was training with us used this basic movement to protect himself from a 20 stone bouncer trying all out to hit him. The fact that this person couldn't hit him made them more and more angry but in the end he was unharmed. He said afterward that he wished he could have done more, but to my mind that was a perfect example of self defense.
This is what my instructor is always talking about - basics, and all styles have a series of basic exercises.


As for freezing up, I have no answer for that one - I don't do it so I cannot comment - is there anything you can do to prevent it?

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Old 03-14-2001, 11:40 AM   #8
mike brown
Dojo: Denver Buddhist Temple
Location: Denver, CO.
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self-defense.

Regarding "freezing up,"
It's a very common problem for students of the fighting arts. I think it's why sifu and sensei stress focus so much, so that if a student is in a violent situation he or she can still control their body in spite of the "possum reflex."

Regarding Aikido and self-defense in general; I'd like to relate the following incident which occurred in the summer of 1986:
I and a companion were visiting a family of three sisters in their apartment.
One of the girls was 17 and had taken a shine to me (I was 20 at the time). She had an unusual way of showing it; she would attack and physically abuse men she liked-which, I believe, is what her father had done to her.
Her method of attack was fairly original; she would approach in mune-tsuke fashion and grab chunks of sensitve tissue and pinch them black and blue, causing really ugly hematomas.
I asked her a few times to stop; to no avail. I became angry and decided to stop her. Fisticuffs was out, I believe it's cowardly to hit women, and besides, I still considered her a friend of sorts.
I'd had several months of gung-fu under my belt from a progressive, combat-oriented style. None of the techniques I could remember was appropriate for the situation.
I suddenly remembered a self-defense class I'd had several years before; in which I was taught nikkyo.
She moved in to pinch a chunk out of my side when I applied nikkyo. She managed to escape.
Now it was not a great nikkyo-it was very poor in fact. But in defense of it I will say that this girl did manual labor for a living and had the physiology of a seventeen-year-old boy. She was also emotionally ill and had a high pain threshold.
I was astounded when nikkyo failed and applied it again. Once again she escaped.
At this point, I had an epiphany of sorts and decided to change technique.
The third time she attacked I grabbed her right wrist and pulled forward and around; kind of like sumi-otoshi. I then did a rear shoulder pull-down; like we do in Tomiki-ryu.
The throw/s were successful and she sat/fell down on the rug. I then put her in a dojime hold (sitting rear mount with a spine stretch).
My companion at this point started talking to her and calmed her down.
In hindsight; nikkyo would have worked had I done a better job of it and had I applied osae-waza. At the time I didn't know any of the pins.
I succeeded in subduing without harming her, however, and I believe this incident illustrates the following points:

1. Like the gentleman already said on the forum, techniques are like tools in a toolbox-you have to be able to use them correctly and appropriatly; and be mentally flexible enough to know when to switch one for the other.
2. Practicing any kata is important, but ingraining the principles of motion contained in the kata is more important that stylistic nuances.
3. Real-life situations (I realize this incident is on the lite end of combat) require a broad or at least deep range of technical knowledge to resolve because of their unpredictable nature; which is why I believe in cross-training among the different martial arts-although I realize that if I had mastered nikkyo and osae-waza this situation would have been taken care of more simply.
I realize that this incident could have been taken care of simply by leaving. So in the sense that I had to use Aikido principle to resolve I probably failed. However, she didn't get hurt and I didn't get any more bruises.
I view Aikido as part of my total defensive/combative potential; not as all of it. For instance, the hold I used to subdue the girl on the ground is not an Aikido hold-it's an old time jujitsu or catch-wrestling technique.
I hope this helps.

Peace,



Mike Brown

Mike Brown
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Old 03-14-2001, 12:04 PM   #9
Guest5678
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Re: Re: Old Topic

As for freezing up, I have no answer for that one - I don't do it so I cannot comment - is there anything you can do to prevent it?
[/b][/quote]

Sam,

Alas, I don't freeze either so I have great difficulty in understanding why it happens to some people and not others. This is the reality of it though. The difference between training and actually using technique is night and day. Anyone that can figure out how to train people not to "freeze" will have accomplished a great feat indeed. I think it's just a natural response in some people. I have no idea how to prevent it or even if it can be for that matter. Maybe others here can come up with something...... it's beyond me.

Also, I too believe people can learn to defend themselves, if I left you with some other impression, forgive me. However, I also believe one really has no realistic measure of effectiveness until they actually have to use it. This doesn't mean that I believe you have to go get in a confrontation to understand your true abilities and I really hope people will never have to test their abilities in a physical situation outside the dojo. But you have to admit, it is the utimate test. It's a large part of why many train. To learn to protect themselves.

So when I hear these statements regarding the effectiveness of Aikido, I have to wonder just what they are basing their opinions on, experience? I seriously doubt that, or they would be wording it a bit different. Something like, "Well in my last confrontation I tried Ikkyo and it didn't work" or something to that nature. It would then come down to a matter of THEIR Aikido not working. Not Aikido in general. You never hear that though......

Dan P. -Mongo
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Old 03-14-2001, 12:25 PM   #10
Chris P.
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Quote:
Sam wrote:
By this I mean that striking arts are only able to destroy - instead of controlling the situation or suppressing the attacker.
What if the aggressor isn't impressed by your joint lock? You must either destroy it, or move on to something else. Controlling someone is more difficult than cooperative or semi-cooperative practice might lead you to imagine. If you rely solely on pain compliance, what do you do when the opponent is resigned to it, or has a temporary biochemical resistance?

Can't strikers can use graduations of force sufficient to suppress an attacker without causing permanent damage? Yes, of course they can.
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Old 03-14-2001, 02:40 PM   #11
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
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Circle But it's *not* pain compliance...

Chris said:
Quote:
What if the aggressor isn't impressed by your joint lock? You must either destroy it, or move on to something else.
I don't agree. My sensei consistently harps on the idea that we are not manipulating joints or striving to cause so much pain that our attacker submits. Rather, we are working to control the attacker's center. If I'm doing kote gaishi, I'm not throwing your wrist, I'm throwing your center and am just connected at your wrist.

Quote:
Controlling someone is more difficult than cooperative or semi-cooperative practice might lead you to imagine.
I agree there. However, in the dojo, our attacks are full out (or should be). The only reason that's cooperative is that we (as nage) have a lot of energy to work with. Of course we hold back a little bit in the dojo, but we should never just "let" anybody have the throw. The throws are real and the techniques work -- when done well.

Quote:
If you rely solely on pain compliance, what do you do when the opponent is resigned to it, or has a temporary biochemical resistance?
Ah, but we don't rely on pain compliance at all for that very reason. Nikkyo works because of what it does to the attacker's skeletal structure and his center, not because it hurts. We have a guy in our dojo who is exceptionally flexible. Yet, when our pins are done correctly, he can't get up -- not because he's in pain, but he simply can't get up.

Quote:
Can't strikers can use graduations of force sufficient to suppress an attacker without causing permanent damage? Yes, of course they can.
I'll take your word for it, but I can think of lots of situations where striking somebody would be inappropriate and/or illegal while simply redirecting his energy or gently pinning him would be fine. For example, would you strike a drunk buddy at a party when a simple ikkyo would do?

Respectfully,

-Drew Ames
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Old 03-14-2001, 04:15 PM   #12
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Re: But it's *not* pain compliance...

Quote:
jxa127 wrote:
For example, would you strike a drunk buddy at a party when a simple ikkyo would do?

Respectfully,

-Drew Ames
[/b]
Drew, this is probably a stupid thing to say of me, but nonetheless - have you ever executed an ikkyo outside of the dojo ?

I think your drunk buddy would benefit more from a slap(which doesnt damage anything) than from being thrown around and hitting the floor/furniture with ikkyo-URA to which you'll change because ikkyo-omote will fail on him

I'm not projecting my faults on you,but I do have general lack of faith in executing pure ikkyo on someone who keeps constantly moving

Respectfully,
Aleksey.
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Old 03-14-2001, 04:18 PM   #13
Chris P.
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Re: But it's *not* pain compliance...

[quote]jxa127 wrote:
Chris said:
Quote:
What if the aggressor isn't impressed by your joint lock? You must either destroy it, or move on to something else.
I don't agree. My sensei consistently harps on the idea that we are not manipulating joints or striving to cause so much pain that our attacker submits. Rather, we are working to control the attacker's center. If I'm doing kote gaishi, I'm not throwing your wrist, I'm throwing your center and am just connected at your wrist.


If I don't care what happens to my wrist, I will terminate the connection myself, and you will be without a handle to move my center. You've given me no incentive to move.

Quote:
If you rely solely on pain compliance, what do you do when the opponent is resigned to it, or has a temporary biochemical resistance?
Ah, but we don't rely on pain compliance at all for that very reason. Nikkyo works because of what it does to the attacker's skeletal structure and his center, not because it hurts. We have a guy in our dojo who is exceptionally flexible. Yet, when our pins are done correctly, he can't get up -- not because he's in pain, but he simply can't get up.


Again, if I'm not interested in protecting the joint or avoiding the pain of Nikkyo, I will terminate the connection.

I'm not talking about pins, which operate on different principles. I'm debating the superiority of Aikido as a "non-violent" control method, by virtue of its supposedly "benevolent" joint locks.
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Old 03-14-2001, 05:23 PM   #14
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
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though very much still a beginner, I thought a lot of Aikido was lead... if they're off balance, you're trying to get your balance back so you can counter... then BAM... nikkyo, and you find yourself of the ground.

Theoretically, anyways.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 03-14-2001, 06:21 PM   #15
darin
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Quote:
Sam wrote:
This is a long discussed and difficult topic (see thread on 'does aikido really work?' etc).

My opinion in this is that aikido is more effective than striking arts in the street arena.

I disagree. My teacher is highly ranked in aikido and karate. I asked him which style he favours in self defence. He said he doesn't know which is better but he found karate much easier to use in fighting and more practical against multiple attacks. But he also told me that it depends on the situation and who you are fighting.

What determines the appropriate fighting style for a situation is the environment, type or no. of attackers and distance.

I think its best to be able to punch and kick as well as throw and lock. Also people who train in and respect other styles generally have a better understanding of self defence. Did you know that Royce Gracie in an article said that he loves Kickboxing. He took it up so as to have a better insight into how kickboxers attack. But he is not shy to boast how he has learnt to do a mean axe kick.

I have never had to fight outside of a dojo. I have been confronted many times but have been able to talk my way out of things or just been lucky. I attribute this to aikido but I have met some people who do aikido and still get into fights and still get beaten up.
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Old 03-15-2001, 04:43 AM   #16
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
Location: UK
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You know sometimes I hate living in the UK. The main problem is that while everybody is having the interesting dicussion, I am asleep (its usually about 5 in the morning).

I would like to respond to a number of points so here goes.

1. Aikidoka2000/Thomas - with regard to your using aikido to avoid confrontation I admire you greatly (and have successfully done so myself), but sometimes this cannot be done. Sometimes one arrives when confrontation has been and gone and violence ensues. Sometimes people cannot be reasoned with. I believe that as people who are physically skilled it is our responsibility to protect people who are not. Sometimes you cannot stop advanced violence by talking because nobody is listening. Then you must do what you can to help whilst others are content to be witnesses.
I guess how you think does depend a lot on your environment. For example I live in a high rise block of flats where the crime rate is way above average. Something happens about twice a week. If it sounds/looks (from way above) bad, I call the police and then go down to maybe try to help. By the time I've got dressed (it is always late) and gone down it has always stopped but one of these days I'm going to have to do my responsible citizen bit.


2. Mike Brown - I really think you are right when you mention 'focus' I think often differences in people of the same technical knowledge but not observed ability is down to focus.

3. Chris P. - I agree to a certain degree with the point you made about joint locks, they are temendously difficult to get on, but a little easier if you make sure somebody is off balance (as Nick said).
The locks I have learnt thought are more about mechanics than pain. I think the idea is to make it impossible for somebody to turn on you because the arm won't turn that way rather than it hurts to turn the arm that way.
Out of preference I prefer hiji-waza (elbow techniques) to sankyo etc because there is more leverage to be had.

4. Mongo/Dan P. - Do I speak from experience? Unfortunately yes. A couple of years ago I looked at somebody the wrong way outside a nightclub and then is was me against the world (well actually him and his four friends). BTW they attacked me from behind which was a nice touch. Anyway I'm still here and I learnt a lot.
Also I've had my fair share of scuffles as a teenager...

As for other experience I visit regularly my old karate club and I have known most of them since I was at school so it is a very friendly place. They always invite me to try aikido when they are sparring and it is no easy feat applying a joint lock to somebody with that sort of isometric strength (and determination not to let you get it on) and a free hand...I do manage to pull something out the bag often enough to maintain faith though.

Darin - I take your point about cross training. I can kick so I don't know if I would feel as confident dealing with kicks as somebody who can't kick. I guess there must be something to the 'know your enemy' style of thinking. Deep down though I would love to think that just aikido done well is enough, but having done other arts I guess I'm tainted now and will never know. Ho-hum.

I still consider myself very inexperienced in these matters and I would be pleased to be corrected on any of the points I have made.
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Old 03-15-2001, 06:26 AM   #17
Matt Banks
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Quote:
CraigJamieson wrote:
People in hard styles,ie Karate, Kickboxing, talkabout Aikidos ineffectiveness on the 'street arena'. Has anyone ever had to use their aikido training in a real situation? Didi it work for you?
Bluntly,

I chose aikido originally purely for the exellent self defence aspect of it. I could have done alomst any art, but I chose aikido. I feel some schools of aikido treat training as a dacing session, this I feel is rubbish and inaafective-there aim may be to cultivate other things. Yet the good dynamic styles of aikido ive trained in are the best methods of self defence ive ever seen. The training has been harder, the tecniques have been applied better, and the fighting spirit has been cultivated.Practicality was never ever forgotten. Yes ive used it and it worked very well for me. Im not being biased towards aikido , i could train in everything. Ive trained with royce gracie, and the training i felt was far to geared to sport. i.e. lets drag each other to the ground.

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-15-2001, 06:34 AM   #18
Matt Banks
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Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
Quote:
CraigJamieson wrote:
People in hard styles,ie Karate, Kickboxing, talkabout Aikidos ineffectiveness on the 'street arena'. Has anyone ever had to use their aikido training in a real situation? Didi it work for you?
Bluntly,

I chose aikido originally purely for the exellent self defence aspect of it. I could have done alomst any art, but I chose aikido. I feel some schools of aikido treat training as a dacing session, this I feel is rubbish and inaafective-there aim may be to cultivate other things. Yet the good dynamic styles of aikido ive trained in are the best methods of self defence ive ever seen. The training has been harder, the tecniques have been applied better, and the fighting spirit has been cultivated.Practicality was never ever forgotten. Yes ive used it and it worked very well for me. Im not being biased towards aikido , i could train in everything. Ive trained with royce gracie, and the training i felt was far to geared to sport. i.e. lets drag each other to the ground.

Matt Banks
opps i said I could train in everything, writing error.I meant I could have trained in almost any art as there are many clubs in my area.

bye Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-15-2001, 09:59 AM   #19
Gerardo A Torres
Dojo: Aikido West
Location: SF Bay Area, California
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Quote:
CraigJamieson wrote:
Has anyone ever had to use their aikido training in a real situation? Didi it work for you?
I have used it in real (potentially dangerous) situations, and it worked. Five times to be exact (I grew up in a third world country). And I must say, with fear of sounding cliche, that it was Aikido's advance philosophy of conflict (and the technique of course)that help me in those situations. Years after those encounters, I reflect, and realize that had I been training in a more "fighting" oriented art, I would have made the wrong decisions and perhaps I would not be here today.

Matt Banks,

I notice that you never miss an opportunity to qualify some aikido styles as just "dancing." It sounds like the observation that a person who's never done aikido would make: "it looks like dancing." But anyways, I don't wish to confront you but to ask you something: how do you know that this "dancing" stuff doesn't work in real life? (please don't tell me you tried it in your dojo and it didn't work)Are you proficient in these styles and understand their underlying principles and practice?

I train in Aikikai (Hombu) style, with influence from other Shihan also. Heck, I don't know whether I'm dancing or not, but I just know it works for real(from my experience and many other people I know).
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Old 03-15-2001, 10:40 AM   #20
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
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In response

Hello Sam et al.
Your point was a very valid one, and well deserving of examination.
I suppose there are those who would regard my philosophy towards conflict unrealistic and perhaps in the category of "loftier aspirations which have no real application when you are being attacked by several muggers with the intent on ripping you a new one."
To perhaps give a better understanding of the foundation on which I base my observations, I offer this:
In life, could it not be said that for each action we take, it in turn leads to further reaction both negative and positive,that which is defined purely by our own perceptions and subsequently the realities in which we find ourselves. Arguably, there certainly can be no distinction from an action such as breathing, brushing your teeth, kissing a baby or an action such as attacking someone with intent to kill. They are all actions. The universal phenomena of cause and effect seems to encompass everything from the Micro to the Macro, missing no detail.
To illustrate, In order to be involved in a situation such as, "walking down a dark street and being Jumped by six hoodlums",
It would seem to be viewed as random as it is unavoidable.
Yet, in reality perhaps there is an explanation of why this happens.
There was a definite reason why said person was there, at that EXACT location, at 2:00 am in that dark alley, and there was a reason to predetermine said person's actions that led to that decision, and so on and so on.
Every decision and action that said person takes, and as well the hoodlums took, from the moment of birth, was all an effect which resulted in leading up to the moment of our unfortunate meeting. If any actions that had transpired differently before the meeting were slightly different, then the outcome would be vastly different, or it may not have even happened at all.
Each action we make from moment to moment determines in part as to the chain of events that leads to the next.
It humbles me to no end to ponder that each and every second, my actions ripple throughout the universe and have an effect on every single particle of matter, both seen and unseen. And yet at the same time, the opposite is occurring to me as an effect from all else. Sort of like one giant unfathomably complex ocean.
As enigmatic as that may sound, it is one aspect of existence that cannot be refuted.
On an more grounded matter, When I practice randori correctly in the dojo, and when I am attacked on the street, what is the difference between the two? In the dojo I am aware of my center and my surroundings and I focus on exuding my ki. If likewise I am on the street, or eating a bowl of cereal watching the simpsons, should I also not be striving to do the same?
If,from moment to moment, I am aware of my surroundings, then perhaps this may assist by way of guidance to view all actions as basic principles of Aiki.
Blend, harmonize, pass through.
I cannot control the actions of others,
(Yet) lol! But rather I can only control what actions I take based on the perception of Ki, and the concept of interconnectivity. If I never have violent conflict as a reaction of my way of thinking, I will only then consider myself a master of the basics.
With humble regards,
Thank you,
Thomas Dehn

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 03-15-2001, 11:00 AM   #21
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 482
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[quote]gerardo wrote:
Quote:
Matt Banks,

I notice that you never miss an opportunity to qualify some aikido styles as just "dancing." It sounds like the observation that a person who's never done aikido would make: "it looks like dancing." But anyways, I don't wish to confront you but to ask you something: how do you know that this "dancing" stuff doesn't work in real life? (please don't tell me you tried it in your dojo and it didn't work)Are you proficient in these styles and understand their underlying principles and practice?
I agree with Matt on this one.

The first time I heard that said was by my teacher Han Sam Soo, 8th dan Taekwon-do, refering to students in his own class who were training without focus or effort.

No "fighting spirit" as Matt puts it, no apparent understanding of what they're doing - just a dance.

What you've said is quite funny, because reading Matt's posts, I think he has mucho experience.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-15-2001, 11:08 AM   #22
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
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Quote:
gerardo wrote:
Quote:
CraigJamieson wrote:
Has anyone ever had to use their aikido training in a real situation? Didi it work for you?
I have used it in real (potentially dangerous) situations, and it worked. Five times to be exact (I grew up in a third world country). And I must say, with fear of sounding cliche, that it was Aikido's advance philosophy of conflict (and the technique of course)that help me in those situations. Years after those encounters, I reflect, and realize that had I been training in a more "fighting" oriented art, I would have made the wrong decisions and perhaps I would not be here today.

Matt Banks,

I notice that you never miss an opportunity to qualify some aikido styles as just "dancing." It sounds like the observation that a person who's never done aikido would make: "it looks like dancing." But anyways, I don't wish to confront you but to ask you something: how do you know that this "dancing" stuff doesn't work in real life? (please don't tell me you tried it in your dojo and it didn't work)Are you proficient in these styles and understand their underlying principles and practice?

I train in Aikikai (Hombu) style, with influence from other Shihan also. Heck, I don't know whether I'm dancing or not, but I just know it works for real(from my experience and many other people I know).

Hi Geraldo,

I do train in aikido, in fact I would go as far to say that aikido is the centre of my life. I train in a yoshinkan style. This june im flying out to malaysia to train for a month with Sensei Thamby Rajah, I take my aikido very, very, very seriuosly.(but I still have fun).

I say the term 'dancing style'' because the people who normally question aikido's effectiveness use that term. I myself feel that term is wrong, its just non aiki people on this forum relate to it easily. I definately do not feel the aikikai is a ''dancing style''. What I mean by this incorrect,
is clubs who dont train with any will at all. e.g. i trained in a club once,which did not necesraily feel ukemi was neccesary in normal training? As in any martial art dojo's there are also people who dont do things with any heart.

hope this settles things


Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-15-2001, 11:46 AM   #23
Gerardo A Torres
Dojo: Aikido West
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
No "fighting spirit" as Matt puts it, no apparent understanding of what they're doing - just a dance.
I agree too, aikido with no spirit = bad.

Matt,

I thought you were actually talking about stylistic differences (Aikikai, Yoseikan, Iwama, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc, etc). I guess I misunderstood your post (thanks for clarifying). There are still people who think that some styles work and some doesn't. Even within the Aikikai some people think of others as practicing ineffective aikido, there is even feelings of indifference between some federations.
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Old 03-15-2001, 11:51 AM   #24
akiy
 
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Just to point out this week's Poll:

"Do you think people should practice aikido without any martial intent?"

http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=50

-- Jun

PS: Be sure to vote on the top-right hand corner of the homepage...

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 03-15-2001, 12:00 PM   #25
REK
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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Craig:

To answer your questions from my personal experience: Yes and yes. I work on a locked forensic ward in a state correctional facility with severely mentally ill inmates. We average about one critical incident per day. Frequently, I am involved. I have never been disappointed with aikido or its effect. I don't have the luxury of maiming or hurting indiscriminately in this job, so aikido is ideal for me.

Rob

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