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Old 09-16-2004, 07:37 PM   #26
oudbruin
Dojo: Independent
Location: Trenton, Nieu Joisey( Ya gotta a problem wid dat?)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 46
United_States
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Re: Aikido And The Law

And on the lighter side, there is the urban myth about the petite female 2 or 3 dan in some karate shool who when walking to her car(from work, the bar, whatever) is beset upon by several guys and seriously maims all 3 or 4 of 'em-
--
After I made this post I discussed this issue with some of my staff counsel, and the standard in MY STATE is equivalent force. equivalent is a hazy term for me, and could mean any number of things to any number of people.
Of course common sense should apply, you don't advertise you had to use MA , and you make NICE to the man in the BLUE UNIFORM he is your freind.
(if you are not nice to the man in the blue uniform ,he will be your worst nightmere)
--
I've also confirmed that the "registration" as a deadly weapon is BS in New Jersey, doesn't exist not here. you have to register if you own an air rifle or bb gun, but not if you have killed or can kill with your hands alone.
-
No one from australia has weighed in yet, they have thier issues, now . Especially with the sword ban. How does that effect anyone trying to do iiaido? Do other countries have issues with people carrying around swords?
Bruce
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:37 PM   #27
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
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Re: Aikido And The Law

Someone already said it; Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6!

Being arrested and having to pay for a defense can destroy someone's life, but at least there is a chance of rebuilding. Once you've crossed the River Styx, that's another story. Avoid trouble when possible, train hard and act responsibly and you'll likely never have to make the calculus.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 09-17-2004, 09:09 AM   #28
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
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Re: Aikido And The Law

To simplify matters (because I'm a simple Soul) it appears that as far as self defence and the law is concerned we have two basic priciples.

1 You can use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself.

2 What amounts to 'reasonable force' is a question of fact, unique to every circumstance.

Everything else is built on these two pillars with lots of examples as to what has and has not been regarded as 'reasonable force' in a variety of circumstances.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:27 AM   #29
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
United_States
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Re: Aikido And The Law

Hi all, where i worked and most US departments, use what is called the "One -Up Rule". This is where police can respond on a force scale from mere physical presence all the way to deadly force determined on the force presented by the perp. We don't attack, we attempt to de-escalate situations. Many of the public just don't get that. So, for instance if you weild a blade in front of the police-your headed for the coroners shelf. Or it may go the other way if you can be talked down and subdued by "softer" means.Thats on you. If you raise your fists, he may raise a baton, or engage you with back-up officers with or without: OC spray, or stun etc. The police have to win. Thats their job.They are forced to make split-second decisions that may have long range consequences. The police dont fight, they stop the threat. The police dont kill, they stop the threat. They are there to assist. They are there to save your ass, not kiss it. Of course this will not make everyone happy to hear, but regardless, remains true. Take care, keep training.
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:07 AM   #30
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,624
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Re: Aikido And The Law

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
Hi all, where i worked and most US departments, use what is called the "One -Up Rule". This is where police can respond on a force scale from mere physical presence all the way to deadly force determined on the force presented by the perp. We don't attack, we attempt to de-escalate situations. Many of the public just don't get that. So, for instance if you weild a blade in front of the police-your headed for the coroners shelf. Or it may go the other way if you can be talked down and subdued by "softer" means.Thats on you. If you raise your fists, he may raise a baton, or engage you with back-up officers with or without: OC spray, or stun etc. The police have to win. Thats their job.They are forced to make split-second decisions that may have long range consequences. The police dont fight, they stop the threat. The police dont kill, they stop the threat. They are there to assist. They are there to save your ass, not kiss it. Of course this will not make everyone happy to hear, but regardless, remains true. Take care, keep training.
Well of course,
This is not "sport fighting: in which we are attempting to set up a "fair" fight. These law enforcement perssonel are putting their bodily health and their lives on the line. They are allowed to and actually expected to win. Anyone who expects a police officer to use lesser force than the subject is, in my opinion, motivated by some political agenda and not any concern for the lives of the officers themselves.

The unspoken motto of many departements is: "An injured officer is cheaper than an injured subject". So they cave in to popular pressure and teach their officers to hesitate when they should be decisive, to attempt lesser force when they should be fully committed. This leads to dead officers but you never hear the public say a word about that. You only hear every body yelling when another subject is killed.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 09-17-2004, 04:07 PM   #31
disabledaccount
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 50
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Re: Aikido And The Law

Hear, Hear!
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Old 09-18-2004, 12:32 AM   #32
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
United_States
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Re: Aikido And The Law

George, your points are valid,although I've never been trained to Hesitate. Yet I have often heard my fellows complain that they are "more afraid of being sued than shot". This comes from the litigious society that we are in now. And the tendency of the smart cop now is to do nothing, and/or to give the impression as of such. To not go out looking for trouble, there are way to many reasons to state that could cost a guy his life for probing into essentially nothing. I went from hotrod to slow lane quick after seeing what has and does happen to an officer who is zealous to just do his job. The brakes are hard to apply man. But if one is to make a career out of it, crucial. What tactics our fathers and grandfathers applied on the street(which commanded order in the streets very quickly), would get a newbie fired so quick today.Sad but true.
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