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Old 09-18-2004, 08:57 PM   #76
wendyrowe
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Richard Cardwell wrote:
Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.
I didn't get the impression that he was taking it personally or being defensive. It seems more to me like he's trying to get people to question their assumptions.

As for me, in general I tap when I know my partner definitely has me; but sometimes I hold on a bit further so I'll be closer to knowing my limits. I'm thankful that my lifestyle doesn't require me to discover my REAL limits -- but if I lived another sort of life, I think I'd rather test myself in a controlled scenario than discover it in real time while on duty.
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Old 09-18-2004, 11:07 PM   #77
Lorien Lowe
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Re. floppy ukes from yonkyo: I am one. I literally CANNOT get out of a yonkyo fast enough for it not to be very painful if someone gets the nerve pinch accurately, and I always end up flying to the ground in a very dramatic fashion even for relative beginners. It probably does look like I'm bailing out, because nage hardly has to touch me before I'm gone.
On the other hand, I'm quite difficult to get a good nikyo and especially a good sankyo on. It's just the way my body is made.

-Lorien
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Old 09-19-2004, 01:54 AM   #78
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Well, you are high ranking aikidoka. You take Shibata sensei class. You know appropriate ukemi. And still, you use ukemi from other style.
It is not surprising that he looked at you this way.

Simply bad etiquette.

Me too, I'm very surprised. Beginner student can claim lack of knowledge. But you?

This is surely not the way to build bridges between aikido styles.
Actually, I have no interest in having someone torque on my wrists or other joints unnecessarily. If executing some decent defensive ukemi is considered rude by some folks then I guess I am rude.
I will say that during my week's stay at Honbu I took extensive ukemi from the Nidai Doshu, Osawa Sensei and Watanabe Sensei as well as from Kuroiwa Sensei at his dojo. Shibata Sensei, by far the most junior, was the only one of the group that seemed to have this expectation that I hang in there and get reefed on. The idea that this is some sort of general expectation at the dojo at which I was a guest simply isn't the case although there might be individuals teaching there who take this approach. The people whom I was most intersted in learning from did not..

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-19-2004, 03:49 PM   #79
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Confused Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
you should see the edged weapons docutext that dan inosanto made with leo guage for u.s law enforcement .....
Are you talking about the one with interviews with cops who have survived knife attacks? Guro Kevin played that one in class in 2002 or 2003, I think -- gave us something of a reality check. Mr. Ray, who's the corrections officer I told you about, also contributed his own knowledge of that area to the dicussion.

If you're talking about something else, could you descirbe it, please?

Quote:
..... before you think you know who you're siding with and what you are siding about
What do you mean by "taking sides"? Guro Dan is the head of the Kali system I've been studying for seven years. He's right there in my lineage: Guro Dan ----> Guro Kevin Seaman ---> Guros Andrew Astle and Lance Loomis; from there, Guro Kevin, Guro Andy, and Guro Lance ----> Me. That's all there is to it; that's the FMA line I'm a part of. Just like you would be just stating the facts if you rattled off the teachers you've had, and who taught them. No taking sides, just outlining your lineage.

So where's the "taking sides"? I don't see it.
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Old 09-19-2004, 03:58 PM   #80
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Bjrk wrote:
Am I really the only one who finds it of high relevance that the thread starter is talking about yonkyo, not the rest of the techniques? To me, taking pain in yonkyo is something completely else than the rest of the techniques. I find no reason to advice people to tap early for safety reasons - in yonkyo.
Good point about the thread being about Yonkyo. I haven't seen too much of it since resuming Aikido six months ago, but isn't part of it going for pressure points in the wrists to giive it a little more oomph? If it is, you might not have to tap to avoid injury, but it'll still hurt.
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Old 09-19-2004, 04:23 PM   #81
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Personally making weapons for law enforcement is completely different from martial arts. Theres a difference between practicing techniques with your friends and trying to take down a murderer.

Also, I think one should tap out when they know ot tap out..If they get the slightest feeling "I better tap" then do it. Because otherwise holding out can put extreme stress on the body causing injuries you didn't even know existed. Keep in mind that ligaments and muscles are what move your body and they can only take so much, don't hold out until something breaks. Also...Your teacher, nor ANY of the students in your class, no matter how advanced, should be conciously trying to hurt you...thats not training it's assault. Muchos difference. I apologize if i offended anyone I really didn't read the whole of replies, just the topic.
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Old 09-19-2004, 07:49 PM   #82
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Actually, I have no interest in having someone torque on my wrists or other joints unnecessarily..
And you went to Shibata sensei class, knowing his ukemi requirement ????
If I understand well, you consciounsly went to Shibata sensei class to practice Saotome sensei aikido style? ....ooopppssss......I must be missing something?

When I go to Saotome sensei or Ikeda sensei seminar I make sure NOT to practice the way I practice in my home dojo & federation. Practicing in my style would be considered not respecting them and pretending I know better aikido. Kind of showing off, "hey folks, look at me, this is real aikido stuff"......

Very surprising.....

Last edited by NagaBaba : 09-19-2004 at 07:57 PM.

Nagababa

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Old 09-19-2004, 08:46 PM   #83
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Maybe George didn't know about the ukemi requirements until the incident happened.
You're making lots of assumptions here...
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Old 09-19-2004, 09:05 PM   #84
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Richard Cardwell wrote:
Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.
no i don't really think so either. i'm just trying to use the same demeanor in response to people whose purpose doesn't seem to be as sincere as they let on .but i know there are people who can see that two seemingly opposing views could be applicable and right and /or try to see that it could be the case .some people just want to create division with ignorance in a field where the most important thing is the safety of the people actually using it.this is something they'll never know because they feel very important using words to gain a position of advantage at the expense of the true importance (the lives of law enforcement)the thread was about 'should one tap ,when etc.)i'm responsible for peoples learning that saves their lives,and here comes some one using someone elses credentials to put themselves over me at the expense someone else .what do they care if they mislead people to make themselves feel smart .and some friend of theirs may come here and say i'm so and so and i'm a cop or a fire man and i disagree with you .i would say you are a fool and will never know or be able to impart honestly or perform effectively or you are just a liar trying to make your friends look good .also you don't care about the real issue .all i said was that for the martial artist this way was good and for the martialist that way was good.and here comes some martial artist telling the martialist he doesn't know what he's talking about.never forget a martialist is also a martial artist but not all martial artists are martialists.
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:51 PM   #85
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
..... all i said was that for the martial artist this way was good and for the martialist that way was good ....
I seriously doubt that either group wants to go to the hospital with ripped tendons because they wanted to see how much they can take; one would hope that both martialists and martial artists would train SAFELY so they can learn their skills without being seriously hurt.

If we can agree that stiff tendons are ok and ripped ones are not; and one should train safely WHATEVER they're doing, then no sense quibbling over semantics.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:35 AM   #86
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
And you went to Shibata sensei class, knowing his ukemi requirement ????
If I understand well, you consciounsly went to Shibata sensei class to practice Saotome sensei aikido style? ....ooopppssss......I must be missing something?

When I go to Saotome sensei or Ikeda sensei seminar I make sure NOT to practice the way I practice in my home dojo & federation. Practicing in my style would be considered not respecting them and pretending I know better aikido. Kind of showing off, "hey folks, look at me, this is real aikido stuff"......

Very surprising.....
Actually, I didn't have any idea who Shibata Sensei was or what his requirements were. I had never heard of the man before I went to his class. I was at Honbu Dojo, he was on the schedule, I went.

As I said, I have taken enough ukemi from a range of the top instructors to have a pretty good feel for what is acceptable ukemi and what is not.

I mentioned the story because it was a good example of the different ideas about ukemi which exist. Some people encourage you to really hang in there and "receive" the technique. This does lead to great strength in the joints over time.

Others teach you to recognize when it is on and when it isn't and you take the fall if it is. For these folks hanging in there has no functional purpose and is martially unsound. If you are going to do kaeshiwaza you need to accomplish the reversal before the opponent is aware that he is open for the reversal. Hanging in there and trying to be strong simply gives away too much information to the opponent, allowing him to use the stemi that is always right under the surface in any technique.

Anyway, I am quite happy with what I had been taught and why I had been taught that way. In this case it saved me from some serious wrist abuse. If someone gets his nose out of joint because I didn't afford them that pleasure, well that's not my problem and I certainly don't consider it being disrespectful.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:48 AM   #87
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
if your talking to a martial artist yes ,but a martial- ist whose life will depend on such understanding this thinking will not do.if you are a policeman whos life depends on this understanding you must forever refine your understanding of this 'YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT ' if you're espousing to a person who's situation is artistic in nature then ok.but i've watched too many people be victms of neglect in this capacity where the experience would save life and limb not to know their true limit's gets police shot by their own guns and fighters permenantly altering their lives through ignorance.sore tendons versus dead practitioner ,no contest.
I have to agree with Jason in that good training should encourage you to push the envelope and develop a very good understanding of what your limits are. But there are different types of limits. Limits that have to do with stamina and normal types of impact pain are the ones that you try to push through.

As Jason knows quite well there are techniques which, if your opponent has one on you, you tap out. I had an elbow lock on student once who had a very high pain tolerance. he decided to see if he could stop me. I let go as I heard his elbow starting to go... his ability to handle the pain was stronger than the joint itself was.

I think that it is quite possible to have training methods which take people to their mental and physical limits which don't require recklessly injuring each other. But Jason is quite right that it is important to push the limits in your training because real world life and death situations can place you in a position where you dig down deep and come up with something or die.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:23 AM   #88
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Daniel, I just noticed on another thread that you are 14 years old... your joints are not yet fully developed, and you should be more careful than adults.

Tap.
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Old 09-22-2004, 02:21 AM   #89
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Bj$BS(Bk wrote:
Daniel, I just noticed on another thread that you are 14 years old... your joints are not yet fully developed, and you should be more careful than adults.

Tap.
Good spot Hanna.

I'd be very worried of any teacher that was encouraging juniors to take the pain or hold out in these kind of techniques. Teaching locks to youngsters is a delicate thing and considered a no no in a lot of places now. I don't teach them in my junior class, the joints and bones are still in development and a lot of damage can be done. Don't hang in at all.

On trying to take the nerve pinch, this may not be so much of a problem as the lock (please anyone correct me if I got that wrong) but your pain threshold is considerably lower at a younger age. The pain from the nerve may mask whats going on with the joint because the intensity is greater.

Remember, yonkyo is a lock and involves the shoulder, the nerve is incidental, Hanna's advice is good.

Tap.


Regards

Bryan

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Old 09-22-2004, 03:31 AM   #90
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

You know, I still like working on taking the nerve pain in yonkyo... simply because in yonkyo you can practise taking pain safely. I suppose it can be done unsafely too, but if you want to practise to take pain here is a possibiliby... even if you would have a different emphasis on the ingredients of the pin if you were to use it outside of the dojo, you can choose to train differently when you have a purpose.

I would not do this kind of training in taking pain in youngster either though, even if it can be very safely done. If nothing else, I would not trust them to fully realise the importance of not trying the same thing in other techniques.
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Old 09-27-2004, 10:51 PM   #91
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Actually, I didn't have any idea who Shibata Sensei was or what his requirements were. I had never heard of the man before I went to his class. I was at Honbu Dojo, he was on the schedule, I went.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Years ago I visited Honbu dojo and attended classes. My first class off the plane was Shibata Sensei's. I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that.
Did I do an assumption here?

And Shibata sensei's ukemi requirements have certainly NOT as goal a preparation for kaeshi waza. You have no clue at all what is pourpose of such practice. I'm not surprised, after all, Saotome Sensei never encouraged you to do it, so you don't need to learn such strange thing

Nagababa

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Old 09-28-2004, 01:23 PM   #92
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

mercy sakes.

my physical therapist told me that some of his patients were 'tough guys'. he said, if enduring pain is what you want out of this (rolfing therapy) then that is what you will get.

so, if you feel that enduring pain is good training then beat your head against a wall then practice regaining your center.

for me, yonkyo affects my ki directly. the meridian in the wrist seems to connect right to my damaged liver. so, i get nauseous when yonkyo is applied. i have practiced centering through the pain, but only to the point i felt i was learning - not to prove a point.

if i offend any billy bad-asses out there - my name is john smith!!

billybob
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:52 PM   #93
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I have a lot of old shoulder injuries (dislocations and such) that make many pins, such as Nikkyo and Sankyo, extremely painful. However, sitting through the pain for a small amount of time may not be such a bad idea, so long as your nage is not applying excessive force.

Many of the stretches done before practice mimic the stretches you feel in a pin. So, if the nage is gentle, you can get a very good stretch if you are careful. You can always feel when the pressure goes from a relaxing stretch to the brink of injury, so be sure to tap out before that point.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:14 AM   #94
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
So, if the nage is gentle, you can get a very good stretch if you are careful. You can always feel when the pressure goes from a relaxing stretch to the brink of injury, so be sure to tap out before that point.
There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.

rgds

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Old 09-29-2004, 08:45 AM   #95
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.
Aikido training contains lots of ifs. I feel the difference if uke applies the pin fast or slow, I adapt accordingly.

Having said that, most of my aikido the last years of my training was extremely soft and I see the "taking pain practice" as a minor part - however interesting.

Last edited by Hanna B : 09-29-2004 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 09-29-2004, 09:15 AM   #96
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Bj$BS(Bk wrote:
Aikido training contains lots of ifs. I feel the difference if uke applies the pin fast or slow, I adapt accordingly.

Having said that, most of my aikido the last years of my training was extremely soft and I see the "taking pain practice" as a minor part - however interesting.

Hanna,

where I'm coming from is that if you go down with the intention of trying to resist a bit of pain, but your tori is still a bit raw and moves quicker and harder than you are anticipating, you could get yourself into some trouble. It's not always easy to adapt. Of course there are many different people out there, it's really up to the individual based on their practice experience with their partner. I just wouldn't advocate it as a matter of course.

regards

Bryan

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Old 09-29-2004, 03:42 PM   #97
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I take you as you do not advocate to resist as default; in that I agree. Also, where I'm coming from you would be very precise about what the current training is meant for and what it is not meant for.
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Old 09-29-2004, 10:20 PM   #98
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.

rgds
We practice martial art, not social conversation. Pain is a natural companion of martial artist. One can't avoid it(particularly when we get older), so the best way is to customize it, to gain deep knowledge how to absorb it with minimum body problems.

Yes it is possible to develop body to such way, that even very violent application of any aikido technique can be absorbed without ANY harm to the body. This capability is very important, cos without that it is impossible to understand why aikido is non-resistant art and one can't advance to secret level of aikido techniques

At high level application, with multiple attack on normal speed, when attackers are very experimented, nage usually goes at full of his capacities, full power and full speed. Whole point of such exercise is to push him behind his limits. So of course, he can't control very well techniques. He may even execute techniques in very brutal, violent way if it is apropriate to deal with particular attack.
Anything is permitted for tori and for uke in this case, there are no rules in aikido, remember!

In such situation, when both, attacker and nage, work at the limit of safe practice, uke's capacity of absorbing more then nage can give is crucial to survive.

In such environment, and ONLY in such environment(we have no sparring) tori can develop spontaneous execution of techniques(he doesn't need to take care of uke) and uke can develop spontaneous response, to fulfill goal of aikido practice.

So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna

Nagababa

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Old 09-30-2004, 02:33 AM   #99
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
We practice martial art, not social conversation.
No mention of social conversation in my post.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Pain is a natural companion of martial artist. One can't avoid it(particularly when we get older), so the best way is to customize it, to gain deep knowledge how to absorb it with minimum body problems.

Yes it is possible to develop body to such way, that even very violent application of any aikido technique can be absorbed without ANY harm to the body. This capability is very important, cos without that it is impossible to understand why aikido is non-resistant art and one can't advance to secret level of aikido techniques
I agree, anything's possible, but I'm not sure that everyone practicing today is in a position where they can afford to do this, nor does everyone want to. As I said above it's up to the individual.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
At high level application, with multiple attack on normal speed, when attackers are very experimented, nage usually goes at full of his capacities, full power and full speed. Whole point of such exercise is to push him behind his limits. So of course, he can't control very well techniques. He may even execute techniques in very brutal, violent way if it is apropriate to deal with particular attack.
Anything is permitted for tori and for uke in this case, there are no rules in aikido, remember!
Yep.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
In such situation, when both, attacker and nage, work at the limit of safe practice, uke's capacity of absorbing more then nage can give is crucial to survive.
This is the crux of it. I'm happy to go along on this understanding. However, I still wouldn't be advising a 14 year old boy to hang in there and take it, I'm not talking about the nerve pinch, I'm talking about the leverage on the shoulder joint or the wrists when locks are applied.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna
Yes it is.


Rgds

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Old 09-30-2004, 07:02 AM   #100
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Nagababa said:
Quote:
So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna
i wonder what the founder would say about this? he might laugh and say something about avoiding hazardous situations. i wonder also - is there an analogy in nature for your approach? the founder spoke frequently about not doing anything unnatural, and immersing ourselves in nature daily.

i've seen films of wolves vying for dominance. the loser yields to preserve his life. i've never seen a film of a wolf rubbing his neck raw on a stone to toughen his neck to keep his enemies fangs out of his jugular.

the type of argument i am putting across is intended to carry an argument beyond its present point to where it becomes ridiculous. i am not attacking you, only carrying your thinking to, what i see, is its conclusion.

billybob
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