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Old 09-16-2004, 06:01 AM   #51
Peter Seth
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

This seems to be a discussion on 'techniques', when in fact 'techniques' are only the tool we use to develop aikido as Osensei would have wished it. The do (way) of Ai (harmonising) Ki (energies).
I know everyone must go through the 'hoops' of using techniques to progress, but try not to dwell on their physical impact on a person (this is jujitsu/aikijitsu etc, etc,). Instead use them to develop your 'feel' for energy flow - the best techniques are performed with the least effort. Ergo - if you are applying effort/pain, your techniques are immature as far as aiki is concerned. Any discomfort should only be transitory as you move with the flow. (In fact maybe the word technique should be changed to something else, as it tends to hold back or give the wrong emphasis on the true 'path' of aikido)? Pain is both negative and positive at the same time, but at both ends it tends to be destructive. The whole aim of aiki is to function in the 'path' in between, to harmonise with both positive and negative, this is where energies come together and coalesce - where both everything and nothing exist. As Osensei said 'aikido is zero'.
So try to use technique only as a tool to perfect your 'harmony with everything' path, which may sound a bit 'Yeeeh maaan' and hippie, but believe me is a very positive place to be 'if only'.
There is enough pain in life as it is without inflicting it in the pursuit of the positive and pleasurable experience which is aikido.
Sorry about that folks - the top of my head came off there for a moment!
But seriously - I have been there, and as said every injury causes a scar/lesion, these build up and can cause great discomfort on top of the normal ageing process. We are only here once, lets make it as comfortable as we can.

Pete.

I wonder what the replies will be??
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:11 AM   #52
Hanna B
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

The last years of my aikido training was along the "no pain"-line. I would not say anything bad about the dojos who thinks some pain is a good tool, though. There is different kinds of pain - some can be safely played with, others not.

Quote:
Peter Seth wrote:
There is enough pain in life as it is without inflicting it in the pursuit of the positive and pleasurable experience which is aikido.
(snip)
Sorry I wonder what the replies will be???
The world for sure would be a nicer place if not wo many people preached to others what they should and should not do.
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:09 AM   #53
David Wagg
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

You might find a different viewpoint useful (I practise Shorinji Kempo, hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by posting here ).

I've damaged ligaments in both wrists being thrown with joint-manipulation techniques. Happened about 3 years ago now, and they still haven't properly healed. So I would recommend being careful with painful techniques.

On the other hand, it's impossible to learn how to do a technique properly if your partner doesn't react appropriately. Shorinji Kempo is designed for self-defence, so appropriate means a certain level of resistance, as you would expect from someone attacking you. But from what I know of Aikido, and what I've read in this thread so far, the goal is different, 'The way of harmonising energies'. Does this mean uke should not resist the throw at all? What is the role of uke in Aikido?

Interested to hear some different viewpoints to what I'm used to...
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:33 AM   #54
jester
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
David Wagg wrote:
What is the role of uke in Aikido?
As far as my school and my training goes, when paracticing techniques, Uke must simply attack then recover.

An appropriate attack, with a correct recovery (or follow through) is what uke should do. If you add resisting, countering etc. you are getting into randori and not practicing the specific technique anymore.

Randori is where techniques are tested and modified.
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:46 AM   #55
Alex Megann
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

David Wagg wrote:

"You might find a different viewpoint useful (I practise Shorinji Kempo, hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by posting here)"

You could come around the corner and see what yonkyo is about...

Alex
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:58 AM   #56
Chris Birke
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

How do you not tap out? Just let it snap? I never felt as though I've had much of a choice. If I'm forgetful, the popping noises remind me.
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Old 09-16-2004, 11:36 AM   #57
Hanna B
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Chris,

Quote:
The yonkyo pins I have encountered have not been that severe - the pain to take have been mainly from the nerve point. I guess it all depends on what tori focusses on once uke is on the ground...
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:05 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
The yonkyo pins I have encountered have not been that severe - the pain to take have been mainly from the nerve point. I guess it all depends on what tori focusses on once uke is on the ground... and so it all comes down to how the thread starters teacher teaches the technique.

Alas Daniel, go ask your teacher what his goal with the technique is and how he likes it practised...
The kneeling pin I know from yonkajo is the same as the kneeling pin in nikajo. Things go pop eventually when done right and I don't tap.

The standing pin I know maintains the pressure on the nerve, but also locks the shoulder. Again...eventually...pop.

Just my experience,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-16-2004, 01:17 PM   #59
cguzik
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

As for the original question...

I think that, as uke, there is a good reason to let yourself feel what is happening as you are pinned, before tapping. That reason is to develop an understanding of what is happening in your body. This develops one's understanding of how to execute the pin as tori. Also, the ability to relax into the pin helps develop an understanding of how kaeshiwaza can be applied. You can only learn how to relax into the pin if you work with a partner who will apply the stretch slowly enough for you to do it.

I find it interesting that a debate has evolved whether joint locks should be practiced as involving pain, because the original question was in the specific context of yonkyo. The most common source of pain during execution of this waza is compression of the nerve (the radial nerve?) due to tori having a particular grip on uke's forearm. This compression is not due to a joint lock.

However, yonkyo does involve skeletal locking, which can cause pain, most commonly in the shoulder, during the pin. The lock can be enough to throw uke, even if the nerve compression does not happen. As tori, given the choice between getting the grip and corresponding compression of the nerve, or getting kuzushi and the lock, I'll take the kuzushi and lock every time. If you get the grip and compression of the nerve too, that's even better. In other words, the combination of kuzushi and the lock is both necessary and sufficient to achieve the throw. The nerve compression alone is neither.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by cguzik : 09-16-2004 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-16-2004, 02:17 PM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I'm in complete agreement with you Chris...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:02 PM   #61
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
The last time I heard the "Tap early!" admonition was at Sifu Dan Inosanto's seminar in my home town in 2002. He was quite adamant that we should do so to avoid injuries. This a guy who has trained, and IS training, in a variety of martial arts; he's been around the block several times, forgetting more than most of here will ever know, and he's very much one for training safely. What does that tell you?

Sore tendons are one thing; you want ripped ones? I don't. I'll tap early, thanks.
that tells me just that ,it was a seminar where legal safety is as important ,but you better believe mr inosanto trains with a core group that is enduring the very riggors i've described.as much as mr.inosanto has endured at his age it is safe to say i have endured every bit as much .and if i'm training with hobbyists i say the same because it's needless to go that far.but people on the mat that also use it in their daily work have a much higher ideal of commitment and i'm sure mr.inosanto would agree.the only way to train against the knife is with the knife .but i don't advocate stabbing eachother in training even a little,but get some bruises from a wooden knife might give you AN ENDGE.
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:16 PM   #62
raul rodrigo
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

[quote=Chris Guzik]As for the original question...



However, yonkyo does involve skeletal locking, which can cause pain, most commonly in the shoulder, during the pin. The lock can be enough to throw uke, even if the nerve compression does not happen. As tori, given the choice between getting the grip and corresponding compression of the nerve, or getting kuzushi and the lock, I'll take the kuzushi and lock every time. If you get the grip and compression of the nerve too, that's even better. In other words, the combination of kuzushi and the lock is both necessary and sufficient to achieve the throw. The nerve compression alone is neither.


As my shihan was saying during one yonkyo demonstration: "Okay, we do lock.. ahh, he can resist pain....okay, instead we break the arm." Uke tapped immediately.
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:52 PM   #63
CNYMike
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
that tells me just that ,it was a seminar where legal safety is as important .....
What, like "legal safety" ISN'T important to someone operating a martial arts school or academy? Somehow, I doubt it.

Quote:
.... but you better believe mr inosanto trains with a core group that is enduring the very riggors i've described ....
I've never been to the Insanato Academy, so I don't know how Guro Dan trains in his regular classes.

However, I have trained in LaCoste-Inosanto Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman for seven years; both are full instructors under Sifu Dan, and Guro Kevin is a professional martial artist, hardly a "hobbyist." I was in Guro Kevin's Intermediate Kali class from 1999 until he closed his academy last year. So I've practiced --- and, in Aikido terms, "received" --- throws and joint locks executed with the empty hand and with the stick. I've also been exposed to the Filipino arts' grappling system. I am still training in Kali under Guro Andy.

Not ONCE in all that time did either man exhort any of his students -- including individuals who had been with them a lot longer than me, one of them being a corrections officer who knows a LOT about real world violence and what to train for -- to refrain from tapping out until the pain was too much, or until muscles or tendons ripped. Not ONCE. Have I gone home stiff and sore form having my arms and/or legs cranked? Of course. Have I had "mystery bruises" the next day? Sure. But was my commitment to training ever questioned because I tapped too early, or tapped at all? No. Never.


Quote:
.... the only way to train against the knife is with the knife .but i don't advocate stabbing each other in training even a little,but get some bruises from a wooden knife might give you AN ENDGE.
Thank you for acknowledging that it's a good idea to use a wooden knife, not a real one. Yes, I have done a lot of training with one of those, too. However, for freestyle knife sparring, we used short padded sticks; and wore safety goggles; and even then, for sparring, we were told to stay AWAY from our partner's face and throat, for safety reasons.

You want to argue that it's not real martial arts training unless you have to worry about being maimed in every class, be my guest. But the two Kali instructors I have known for several years don't take that approach, and I'll side with them for now, thank you.
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:31 PM   #64
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

I understand the general idea that 'pain-no-pain' people are putting forward but I believe that the 'no-pain-no-gain' should last well into advanced Aikido. While what we do works on each other, it is dangerous to stray too far from reality that is found in every Judo dojo - serious Judoka do not tap, period. Rather, tori gives up, recognising the disaster that is about to happen. Yes, I used to be a bit like that - it was the norm, but I was not as 'far gone' as those more serious than I. In Aikido, however, unlike Jujutsu, Judo, or Hapkido (my experience), the pain received should not be of a damaging nature (painful-yes, damaging-no) - once removed there should be no lasting effect. If I ever get to be a master it'll hopefully be reflected in pure-pain-less technique, but until then ... I shall not pretend.
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Old 09-17-2004, 06:08 AM   #65
bob_stra
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
... serious Judoka do not tap, period.
Just to add my p.o.v. to the above (not a criticism)

Sure they do - they tap all the time. We like our joints to work ;-)

The problem with Aikido is that the situation is highly artificial. I put on lock, you smile politely, I put it on a little tighter, you keep smiling - "ha ha! I can resist you! Look at my superaikido", I put on a little more - "Let's see how much you can take, sucka!". In the end a kind of macho relationship develops wherein the 'big dog' is the one who can take the most pain without flinching, technique be damned.

There's no sense to this - you're simply accruing injury for the sake of pride. And IMHO it misses the point of co-operative practice as it occurs in Aikido. May as well tap out early.

In judo OTOH, I put on the lock, I put it on with every intent of "finishing it" right from the start. Either you tap out or the joint goes pop - your machismo will do you no good. IOW your cooperation is not really required ;-)

If your training partner is considerate, he may let you go even if you're too stubborn to tap out. In any case, the transaction between us is stripped of superfluous mind games.

Just IMHO - I could be wrong. YMMV.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:38 AM   #66
CNYMike
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
.... the pain received should not be of a damaging nature (painful-yes, damaging-no) - once removed there should be no lasting effect ....
Well, that goes right to the point I was trying to make -- if you tape too late, or don't tap at all, there could be damage. That's why the see-how-much-I-can take argument has its risks. It's one thing to go home with your tendons stiff and sore. It's quite another to have them ripped up. I've never experienced that, and I don't want to. So when in doubt, tap earlier rather than later. Better safe than sorry.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:45 AM   #67
daniel loughlin
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:

You could come around the corner and see what yonkyo is about...

Alex
lol alex i agree. im so surprised that this has take up so much intrest with everyone thanks for all of your posts

regards danny
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:59 AM   #68
daniel loughlin
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Thumbs down Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Am I really the only one who finds it of high relevance that the thread starter is talking about yonkyo, not the rest of the techniques? To me, taking pain in yonkyo is something completely else than the rest of the techniques. I find no reason to advice people to tap early for safety reasons - in yonkyo.
glad sumbody noticed lol although iv found out more aswell about other throws etc
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:17 AM   #69
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Years ago I visited Honbu dojo and attended classes. My first class off the plane was Shibata Sensei's. I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that. If you didn't go on a technique you'd find out about the atemi which was hidden behind the technique.

Anyway, Shibata Sensei was doing kotegaeshi and when he got around to my part of the mat he called me up and went to crank one on me. He had it so I vacated with a break fall right away, riding just in front of the force. Shibata Sensei got this totally disgusted look on his face, walked off and didn't so much as look at me the rest of class. Apparently, I was supposed to let him hurt me, to proove how tough I was or how powerful he was, I wasn't sure. It was pretty funny as none of the other more senior instructors I took ukemi for that week seemed to have a problem with my ukemi style.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-17-2004, 02:23 PM   #70
jester
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Apparently, I was supposed to let him hurt me, to proove how tough I was or how powerful he was, I wasn't sure.
If it's an instructor, that puts you in an awkward position.
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Old 09-17-2004, 02:47 PM   #71
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that.
Well, you are high ranking aikidoka. You take Shibata sensei class. You know appropriate ukemi. And still, you use ukemi from other style.
It is not surprising that he looked at you this way.

Simply bad etiquette.

Me too, I'm very surprised. Beginner student can claim lack of knowledge. But you?

This is surely not the way to build bridges between aikido styles.

Nagababa

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Old 09-17-2004, 02:55 PM   #72
jester
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Build bridges through Pain!!!

Doesn't sound like that bridge will hold many cars.
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Old 09-17-2004, 03:16 PM   #73
daniel loughlin
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

i dont no you do i alex? do you train on fridays with sensei kolesnikov? sorry iv i don't just got a feeling
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Old 09-18-2004, 05:18 PM   #74
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
What, like "legal safety" ISN'T important to someone operating a martial arts school or academy? Somehow, I doubt it.



I've never been to the Insanato Academy, so I don't know how Guro Dan trains in his regular classes.

However, I have trained in LaCoste-Inosanto Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman for seven years; both are full instructors under Sifu Dan, and Guro Kevin is a professional martial artist, hardly a "hobbyist." I was in Guro Kevin's Intermediate Kali class from 1999 until he closed his academy last year. So I've practiced --- and, in Aikido terms, "received" --- throws and joint locks executed with the empty hand and with the stick. I've also been exposed to the Filipino arts' grappling system. I am still training in Kali under Guro Andy.

Not ONCE in all that time did either man exhort any of his students -- including individuals who had been with them a lot longer than me, one of them being a corrections officer who knows a LOT about real world violence and what to train for -- to refrain from tapping out until the pain was too much, or until muscles or tendons ripped. Not ONCE. Have I gone home stiff and sore form having my arms and/or legs cranked? Of course. Have I had "mystery bruises" the next day? Sure. But was my commitment to training ever questioned because I tapped too early, or tapped at all? No. Never.




Thank you for acknowledging that it's a good idea to use a wooden knife, not a real one. Yes, I have done a lot of training with one of those, too. However, for freestyle knife sparring, we used short padded sticks; and wore safety goggles; and even then, for sparring, we were told to stay AWAY from our partner's face and throat, for safety reasons.

You want to argue that it's not real martial arts training unless you have to worry about being maimed in every class, be my guest. But the two Kali instructors I have known for several years don't take that approach, and I'll side with them for now, thank you.
you should see the edged weapons docutext that dan inosanto made with leo guage for u.s law enforcement before you think you know who you're siding with and what you are siding about
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Old 09-18-2004, 07:28 PM   #75
Richard Cardwell
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.
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