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Old 09-11-2004, 11:21 AM   #1
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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Talking Anti-sidearm techniques

'Lo all!
Just for fun during class last night; our Sensei suggested I repeat a class I did a few months back regarding defence against handguns. (If you know me; you'll know I was only too happy to oblige. )
It was a tremendous amount of fun; we have a little toy 1911 about the size of a Walther PPK that fires little plastic pellets about 10 feet.

Fun as it is; I never - ever - pick up a weapon of any kind (toy or otherwise) without full caution and awareness. Even this little plastic thing I handle as if it were real - my instruction reflects that. I first started with a bit of a discourse concerning sidearms, safety and a little bit about the science of shooting: Angle of fire, range, linear vs. angular movement, etc.
I also made one thing very clear: Weapon use in this context is limited strictly to fantasy defence; this is NOT intended to discuss real-life disarmament. Regardless of the weapon and the attacker; anti-weapon defense of any kind is a deadly serious business; one that cannot be taught in the safe confines of a dojo. The use of weapons in a dojo is instead intended to isolate and highlight aspects of defense, movement and other factors that are not realized in empty-handed defense.
(I've recently begun using a club to demonstrate and teach the proper methods of uke's attack - yokomenuchi, shomenuchi, etc. Works great, IMO)
Anyhoo; with caveats and cautions in place (and oft repeated,) we looked at a few techniques dealing with a frontal and side-on threat.
(Another side-note: During this; I was also constantly repeating my '4 Rules of Self Defense': 1) Get off-line. 2) Get a guard up. 3) Drop the attacker in the fastest possible manner and 4) Work to achieve breakaway.)

(Yet another another side-note. While I stress these techniques are fantasy while done in the dojo; they are most definitely applicable in real life. The difference is the headspace the defender is in during RL vs. Dojo useage.)

Anyway; first technique was from a frontal threat; weapon at center of mass; point blank. Defense was a snap ikkyo position with forward sidestep; shihonage finish.
Second was a side threat; weapon at center mass ahead of nage's arms. Defense was based on a Canadian Forces U/C technique in which the weapon is slapped forward and up; the carrying wrist trapped and brought back behind the attacker; pulling the gunman down by carrying wrist and elbow into a standing 3-palm-up control. (One of the very few so-called 'controls' that is actually a control.)

The fun thing for me - aside from teaching in this manner which is always a blast - was watching the behaviour of the class. This late at night it was just myself; my Sensei and a new student; so I could observe them closely.
Those of us experienced in both the use of weapons and the real-life defense against them forget what a chilling effect even a toy simulacrum can have against untrained individuals. My Sensei; for instance - she has an absolutely excellent shihonage and has no problem adapting it to a wide variety of application and improvisation. That went right out of her head in this instance; faced with the threat of even a fake weapon she had difficulty completing the technique; too aware of what that piece of plastic could be capable of.
(BTW - I know she's reading this post; so let's all be clear I'm not saying anything bad; she did much better than some I've seen - some soldiers included. It's just that bringing even a fake potentially deadly threat into the equation involves a major psychological shift to those unready to deal with it.)
So it was interesting; and fun. My question is how many others practice in this manner; and are there any specific techniques you use to isolate/demostrate specific aspects of anti-sidearm defense?

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:53 AM   #2
Aikidoiain
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Hi Dave,

Interesting topic. Fortunately here in Glasgow, hand guns are not really used, except by the kind of people who really do wish to take someones' life. In mugging situations it's usually knives.

However, I did watch an excellent video by Master Miguel Ibarra (Aiki-Jujitsu) demonstrating how to deal with such threats - and, I have to say, it even looked scary! It left me with many questions. Distance - was the first one. If someone pulls a gun on you outside your sphere, what do you do? If you move in towards the attacker, you'll most likely get shot! In such instances, I would suggest total compliance, and perhaps by doing so an opportunity to get close enough to apply these techniques could feasibly occur. Still, I wouldn't even think about trying anything, even though I've trained for such attacks. You'd have to be very brave or very, very fast and skilled.

The second question was - what if you make one tiny error? Even while watching the aforementioned video, I did notice that Ibarra did make a little mistake during one technique. I think he noticed it too! He had the attacker on the floor at this time, but there was a moment when the gun was pointed back at his (Ibarra's) head! I thought, if that was a hair trigger he'd be dead!!

Like I said, guns are not as easy to acquire here as they are elsewhere.

I advise compliance.

Iain.
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:12 PM   #3
shihonage
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Hello Dave,

ikkyo with shihonage finish ? bringing something up and behind the attacker with "3 palm control ?"
Er, good luck doing that against a fully resisting attacker with a weapon while you're having tunnel vision

Although I am a big fan of what Richard Dimitri of www.senshido.com teaches regarding weapon defense (the simpliest, most common-sense and reliable things since sliced bread), I've found that, when it comes to martial arts, this video

http://kravmaga.com/proshop/Videos/L...e_of_fire.html

teaches pretty much the same movements as Dimitri's Senshido tapes.
It even mentions the psychologicla distraction (i.e. asking attacker a question and then acting).
Unlike Dimitri's videos, it has demos which do not feature protective headgear or actual full contact when it comes to strikes, but the movements it shows are pretty much the same - common sense only.

Of course Richard goes into the psychological bit more, but basically in his case it comes down to starting to say something and snapping in the middle of the sentence.

Anyway, unfortunately Richard decided to live in 19th century and use VHS for _most_ of his videos, and this one is available on DVD, so I'm pointing to this one due to the technical similarity and similar basis in common sense.

All of these techniques involve the shortest movement possible to get the gun off the line of fire and secure it for the time it takes you to close the distance and repeatedly strike the attacker and then use leverage to get the gun away.
I see them as very compatible with Aikido footwork and principles, because, after all, Aikido, too, is encompassing of common sense. Sometimes we just forget it.

Last edited by shihonage : 09-11-2004 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 09-11-2004, 08:00 PM   #4
DaveO
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Hello again.
Yes; my descriptions weren't very useful; in the wide range of aikido ikkyo and shihonage - for instance - can be very different things to different people. Rest assured that the techniques described (poorly) do work; and work under extreme conditions.
That said; I reiterate what I said above: Weapons training inside a dojo is less about actually defending against said weapon than about teaching factors not normally experienced by empty-handed practice. It is also a pleasant diversion from regular training. If one wishes to learn genuine weapons defense; a dojo is not the place. No matter where you go; a dojo cannot relax its safety protocols enough to provide sufficient training to give one a realistic chance of success against a weapon.

So to restate the question; If anyone on the Aikiweb uses sidearms for practice in their dojo; how do they go about it and what techniques do they enjoy practicing?

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-12-2004, 02:20 AM   #5
fjcsuper
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Hi!

I was involved in a public demo where my senior would be doing the techniques on me. I would be holding the handgun, on either hand, and using different positions, point blank.

Positions like at the temple, at the side, the back, and right in front at the tummy.

My senior would then execute very quick indirect Kotegaishis on me, like what you would see in a Seagal film. Im sure my high flips would definitely impress the watching crowd.

I hope my post isn't drifting away from the idea of 'practicing' in the dojo...

It is inevitable.
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Old 09-12-2004, 04:04 AM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

If you are seriously interested in weapons takeaways, especially firearms, then check out these tapes. Please overlook the embarrassing advertisement; TRS is infamous for these ridiculous ads but their products are actually quite excellent. They are a very good source for combat / street fighting oriented instructional films.Randy Wanner and Chuck Taylor Videos

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 09-12-2004, 12:10 PM   #7
BKimpel
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Handguns are a good exercise and different sort of weapon for sure. Here are my favorite Aikido handgun takeaways. Sorry about the rudimentary top view sketches -- I haven't had a chance to illustrate them properly like the rest of my catalog.

Although it isn't evident from these top down sketches, I have three attack positions -- Jodan (face), Chudan (belly), and Gedan (groin/abdomen).

Jodan (J):
Slide in, pin the pistol to your shoulder (ala a boxer's slip), and swing the entire arm up and over uke's elbow. The weight of your entire arm combined with a back step will cause uke's arm to bend and place the pistol at his/her own head. Continue downward pressure until on the ground. Take the pistol away -- step back out of reach.

Chudan (C):
The pistol is already hand level, so off the line, two hands on -- one on the pistol itself (not just uke's hand holding the pistol), the other on uke's hand and tenkan. Quickly utilizing uke's natural tendency to jerk his arm back in response you move across uke and tenkan with full force, hip twisting kote-gaeshi. Remove the pistol and step back, or pin and remove, etc.

Gedan (G):
Because the pistol is low you must use your forward hand to scoop uke's hand up. So your forward hand will scoop up uke's hand, while your other hand will cover the pistol and twist uke's hands a hard reverse-sankyo sort of grip (the beginning of shihonage) -- keep the pressure on the wrist. Next get your shoulder under uke's shoulder or elbow and extend the pressure to that joint as well. Next slip under and do shihonage. Pin or throw and take the weapon.

Key points:
(1) Two hands at all times -- one on the pistol, one on uke. With one hand on the pistol you are much more likely to get uke to release it from leverage, etc. and handguns (unlike knifes/blades) are only dangerous on one end so they can be grasped easily.
(2) NEVER let go once you start until you have taken the weapon away. Once you initiate something uke will know your intention and will most likely see you as a threat after an attempt to gain control of the weapon -- and may be MORE inclined to actually shoot you than he/she would have been otherwise (may, no way of knowing true intent of course).
(3) Always point the pistol away from your body, preferably towards uke since that it the safest location for it to go off (in case there are innocent bystanders, loved ones, etc. near by uke's body will shield you and them with his/her own body).
(4) Verbal distraction should always be used, and you should always initiate your defense mid-sentence -- or better yet mid response (i.e. ask a question) as said before.

Reality of guns (and why like you said Dave, this only an exercise):
While guns are a cowards weapon, and maybe 90% of the time uke has no real intent to use it --10% of the time they may be fully intent on killing you regardless of your actions. So on the one hand ‘giving in to demands' is a wonderful plan if uke wants your wallet, but if uke's intent is unclear (e.g. home invasion) you may miss the only opportunity to save yourself and your loved ones. No advice can prepare someone for that decision.

P.S. That picture on the cover of the KravMaga video is the sort of ridiculous defenses that are promoted as ‘real defense'. A women of that physical stature has no chance in *ell against a man of that size with that move. Moving inside, one hand on the weapon…crazy!
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Bruce Kimpel
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Old 09-12-2004, 04:46 PM   #8
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

I like Bruce's four key points, I tend to follow a similar pattern whenever I get questions about handgun type defences in class. Due to the preponderance of security and sometimes military members in my class, these questions tend to be more often than usual.

As indicated in other posts, firearm disarm techniques should be learnt from professional DT instructors who know that these techniques are "proven" to be effective to some degree imo. I think that the Lethal Force Institute has a good programme on this sort of thing. This is one of the links - http://www.ayoob.com/dt.html .

As far as training goes, I remember doing kotegaeshi, hiji shime, waki gatame, ude gaeshi, tenkai kotehineri (sankyo) and kote mawashi (ikkyo with nikkyo wrist grip) at some time or other - keeping in mind the points Bruce gave above. All were from frontal head or chest positions with Tori "in the hole" at point blank range or about one step away from the handgun.

The kotegaeshi version looks very much like the one Seagal often uses in movies, including the flipping ukemi due to the large arc we use for the throw (to keep the weapon at arm's length and away from the body). Folks often have no choice but to go head over heels, as both the weapon and the weapon hand is held for the throw.

As indicated in Bruce's first key point I tend to stress the importance of maintaining firm control of both the weapon and weapon hand at all times and if possible keep the tip of the barrel pointed to the attacker. In this way the likelihood of switching to shoot with the other hand or getting a live shooting angle on the defender is lessened imho. I've also found that very effective and powerful kuzushi goes a long way in increasing the time it takes for the attacker to react to your technique by trying to bring the weapon to bear or something else that puts him back in full control.

The other point I stress is the mental preparedness element. Iow, as Bruce indicated, once you decide to act against the attacker and not comply (which is the preferred option I give in most cases) one has to reserve oneself to go all the way without pause, hesitation or second guessing as there is not much of a window of error if any, once this course of action has been decided upon. In a sense, one chooses to escalate the conflict at this point on one's own terms and the possibility of being injured or killed rapidly increases as a result of one's actions.

Just my 2 cents. Some very good responises so far.

Onegaishimasu.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 09-13-2004, 02:49 PM   #9
DaveO
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
If you are seriously interested in weapons takeaways, especially firearms, then check out these tapes. Please overlook the embarrassing advertisement; TRS is infamous for these ridiculous ads but their products are actually quite excellent. They are a very good source for combat / street fighting oriented instructional films.Randy Wanner and Chuck Taylor Videos
Hi George!
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.
Well; you did warn me about that site; unfortunately I think you grossly understated the case. Man; that site's awful! I didn't know whether to laugh or throw up!
I did some extra checking though; and it was confirmed through independant statement the videos you mentioned are excellent; I'll definitely be checking them out. Sorry for not trusting you outright on this; but that site was so bloody bad...

Bruce: Thanks for the info. Yep; you're right; that site's pretty grim - but as I said above there are a few pearls amid the swine - the question is finding them. The videos George suggested are good examples.
Larry gave Massad Ayoob's site. LFI is one of the top defense schools on the continent; they're info is always top-notch and accurate - they're a good source to trust.

Cheers!

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Old 09-14-2004, 03:11 AM   #10
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
Hi George!
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.
Well; you did warn me about that site; unfortunately I think you grossly understated the case. Man; that site's awful! I didn't know whether to laugh or throw up!
I did some extra checking though; and it was confirmed through independant statement the videos you mentioned are excellent; I'll definitely be checking them out. Sorry for not trusting you outright on this; but that site was so bloody bad...

Bruce: Thanks for the info. Yep; you're right; that site's pretty grim - but as I said above there are a few pearls amid the swine - the question is finding them. The videos George suggested are good examples.
Larry gave Massad Ayoob's site. LFI is one of the top defense schools on the continent; they're info is always top-notch and accurate - they're a good source to trust.

Cheers!
I know... the ads are almost beyond belief. They do these as two full page or more spreads in Black Belt or other magazines. Know what that costs? But all of their films are professionally shot, have good sound, and are done by people who are top notch. In fact the best overall intro to the Systema is their set. You really just have to ignore their hype. I guess they figure that for every serious and knowledgeable martial artist they turn off with their ads there are four or five idiots that the ads appeal to. "No one ever went broke underestimating the American public" comes to mind.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:58 AM   #11
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Going back to Dave's original post on the "toy" gun practice, I was thinking about practising disarms ouside of the dojo using paintball type guns, goggles and mouth protection in case of face contact from the paint balls at short range.

The idea here would be to let folks know what could happen if their partner/attacker reacted in time to get off a shot or if their technique was not effective in keeping the weapon at bay. They would actually know where they would get shot and maybe start figuring out how to enhance elements of the technique to prevent this in future. Does anyone train like this perchance? Does this concept even make sense or is it a recipe for disaster?

Basically I'm extrapolating from the way we usually practice resistance work against tanto to find holes in technique.

Just something I was thinking about.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:04 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Going back to Dave's original post on the "toy" gun practice, I was thinking about practising disarms ouside of the dojo using paintball type guns, goggles and mouth protection in case of face contact from the paint balls at short range.

The idea here would be to let folks know what could happen if their partner/attacker reacted in time to get off a shot or if their technique was not effective in keeping the weapon at bay. They would actually know where they would get shot and maybe start figuring out how to enhance elements of the technique to prevent this in future. Does anyone train like this perchance? Does this concept even make sense or is it a recipe for disaster?

Basically I'm extrapolating from the way we usually practice resistance work against tanto to find holes in technique.

Just something I was thinking about.

LC
The guys in the videos I mentioned above did just that but they used simunition. You can use paintball or another good alternative is airsoft guns. You can get paint pellets for them. I have a full gas blow back glock with two clips. It is almost indistinguishable from my live Glock 19. I have put on a helmet and done some takeaways just so the students in my DT class could see that they work (which they do).

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 09-15-2004, 02:40 AM   #13
shihonage
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
You will see how even a small man (5¢5­, 140 pounds soaking wet) can easily disarm and take down a bodybuilder (6¢2­, 240 pounds) trained in judo
My mind is blown.
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:32 AM   #14
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The guys in the videos I mentioned above did just that but they used simunition. You can use paintball or another good alternative is airsoft guns. You can get paint pellets for them. I have a full gas blow back glock with two clips. It is almost indistinguishable from my live Glock 19. I have put on a helmet and done some takeaways just so the students in my DT class could see that they work (which they do).
Thank you so much George. I think the airsoft guns are exactly what I were looking for. I did some checking on the web - perfect.

This is an interesting area of study, since much of the protective services here don't seem to have much training in weapons retention or take away techniques, and with guns only being carried by cops, military, criminals and a few businessmen, a basic idea of how not to just sit there and eat a bullet may come in handy as against no knowledge at all.

Arigato Gozaimashita.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:49 AM   #15
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Anti-sidearm techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Thank you so much George. I think the airsoft guns are exactly what I were looking for. I did some checking on the web - perfect.

This is an interesting area of study, since much of the protective services here don't seem to have much training in weapons retention or take away techniques, and with guns only being carried by cops, military, criminals and a few businessmen, a basic idea of how not to just sit there and eat a bullet may come in handy as against no knowledge at all.

Arigato Gozaimashita.
LC
Some of the airsoft guns are merely plastic replicas and use a single shot spring mechanism; mine is the Glock for which I acquired the optional metal slide and an extra clip. It feels and functions very much like the real thing with the gas and pellets fiting into a clip that inserts and releases just like a live Glock. The whole rig was around $300 with gas and BB's which makes it far cheaper than simunition rigs. Getting shot with one hurts but isn't dangerous as long as yo use eye protection. (There is even a model of Glock which can be fired on full auto but while fun to shoot wasn't realistic so I didn't get it; one of my police students did to use in their SWAT training).

My adult toy of the year which is on my wishlist for some future time (along side Strider's Lord of the Rings Sword) is the Electric Full Auto M-60 machine gun. But that's gonna wait a long time.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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