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Old 09-02-2004, 12:52 PM   #1
stern9631
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Smile No Holds Barred and Aikido

This is not meant to be a philosophical discussion of the intent behind aikido. Besides atemi, has anyone ever seen an effective application of an aikido technique in a MMA NHB bout? Just curious.
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Old 09-02-2004, 01:27 PM   #2
Greg Jennings
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Jon,

Short, naive answer: Sure. Arm bars, knee bars, ankle hooks, ude garame, neck cranks, etc.

Long answer: The bulk of Aikido training is two-person kata that teaches you principles, not techniques. You then take those principles into any technique that you can dream up.

Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 09-02-2004 at 01:30 PM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 09-02-2004, 01:41 PM   #3
stern9631
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Understandable and true. Yet, I guess my question is very narrow and I guess I am interested in the application of some of these kata. Maybe shihonage or irimi nage?
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Old 09-02-2004, 02:09 PM   #4
Greg Jennings
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

I don't know about the professional NHB bouts, but in rolling with grappling friends, I've applied iriminage, ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, rokkyo, ude garami, some of the same to legs, inverted guillotine, simple kokyunage. It's because those are the things I practice all the time, so when they appear, I take advantage of them. If I practiced other things, I'm sure these wouldn't appear and I'd do something else.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 09-02-2004, 02:48 PM   #5
shihonage
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

go to http://www.aikidog.com/ and buy the 5-DVD set named "Combat Aikido".

It has your answers to applying Aikido in a competitive environment.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:12 PM   #6
Jordan Steele
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Every now and then I'll catch a good defensive throw in an NHB match that resembles Aikido like movement, but who knows what the fighter has studied...jujitsu, kenpo, judo...whatever the guy did it looked cool.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:13 PM   #7
MitchMZ
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Seeing as most of UFC is jujitsu or grappling oriented these days, I always see little techniques that almost look similar to those in Aikido. Really, you can find similar techniques in every art if you look hard enough. Honestly though, when your fighting against guys of similar skill its hard to make anything work, whether its Judo, BJJ, Karate, or Aikido. Thats just the nature of things I guess.
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Old 09-02-2004, 06:39 PM   #8
Devon Natario
 
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

I think it depends on how your practice. Of course, if you practice in a Jujitsu manner, than I guess it's no longer Aikido. Aikido is the theory behind the attack, not just the techniques applied.

Almost all Aikido techniques were taken from other arts, it's the theory behind them that makes Aikido what it is.

I am not trying to brag or whatever, but I was into NHB and Submission Wrestling for some time. My first tournament was when I was an Orange Belt, (which is right above Yellow). I beat a Shodan from Aikido, and another Dan rank in Karate.

I assumed the Aikido guy was going to whoop up on me. Later we talked and he told me that he didn't practice his moves in a fighting manner. He explained to me the theory of Aikido, and how to harmonize with my energy. Well, in Jujitsu or Judo, taking your opponent off balance is the key. It's easier to force someone off balance, than it is to harmonize with my energy.

Anyways- I think Aikido can be applied in NHB, it just depends on "how you train". Again, if you train for NHB, then your best luck is to train with people who do NHB. BJJ, Submission Wrestlers, Jujitsu, etc.

Well, hope that helps. It's just my opinion of course.,

Devon Natario
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:46 PM   #9
CNYMike
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
This is not meant to be a philosophical discussion of the intent behind aikido. Besides atemi, has anyone ever seen an effective application of an aikido technique in a MMA NHB bout? Just curious.
Strictly speaking, I'd say "probably not." AFAIK, Aikido's pins and joint locks aim for having uke face down on the mat with nage next to him, restraining one arm; some pins allow you to fold uke's arm down onto his (or her) back where it could be handcuffed. This may explain why some police forces like aikido. In contrast, NHB favors things like juji gatame, where nage and uke are both on their backs as nage cranks the arm. Or any other submission from the mount, guard, or side hold-down positions. Speaking generally, Aikido doesn't use those. I'd say Judo may be more like it than anything.

That said, there are only so many ways to go for a joint lock -- only three positions for an arm bar, really; Filipino systems refer to them as branch up, branch out, and branch down -- and so many ways to unbalance somebody. So you may see something that looks like aikido when that's not where it comes from. To me, for instance, a goose neck almost looks like a variation of nikkyo (although I could be wrong on that).

So the short answer is probably "yes and no."
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Old 09-03-2004, 01:42 AM   #10
ian
 
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

I'm not sure why people would want to direct 'aikido' towards a 'NHB' competition. I think aikido training has more to do with self-defence in real situations, rather than matches. I would worry to think that people would believe these competitions are a form of aikido testing. Part of a real attack is knowing when to fight and when not to, and being able to respond instantaeously to an attack, and being aware of surroundings and other attackers. Many self defence situations require less rather than more aggression. Often you are attacked from the side or from behind. I also think the understanding of aikido is not complete without understanding how to strike well.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-03-2004, 01:45 AM   #11
ian
 
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
I It's easier to force someone off balance, than it is to harmonize with my energy.
P.S. my earlier comment doesn't contradict Devon - I think aikido training should start off in a more forceful (but safe!) manner, and over time the practitioner finds and is taught, to use force more efficiently. Blending and being gentle are two entirely different things!

Also, NHB matches tend to end in chokes (since the throat can't be pulled off!) , often on the ground, and aikido does little ground work, and the pins it does have, although safer for the person doing the pinning (from a multiple attack standpoint), they are less effective than judo, BJJ or JJ floor pins.

Last edited by ian : 09-03-2004 at 01:48 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-03-2004, 02:10 AM   #12
happysod
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
I think aikido training has more to do with self-defense in real situations, rather than matches
I always wince when I see this type of sport vs street idea postulated as though the street is a different land - NHB matches are one of the most realistic testing arenas for any technique, whatever it's antecedents. I'd be more inclined to say that if it isn't used in this type of arena, it probably isn't that useful a technique for self defense when your attacker also has a clue about self defense. (caveat - assuming no weapons allowed)

Otherwise I'd go with the majority - you're bound to see things that you recognise, there's only so many ways to manipulate/hit a person but I'd be surprised if you ever saw a "classic" aikido throw. Aikido under pressure gets messy quite quickly (or at least mine does).
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Old 09-03-2004, 02:37 AM   #13
DaveO
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
I always wince when I see this type of sport vs street idea postulated as though the street is a different land - NHB matches are one of the most realistic testing arenas for any technique, whatever it's antecedents. I'd be more inclined to say that if it isn't used in this type of arena, it probably isn't that useful a technique for self defense when your attacker also has a clue about self defense. (caveat - assuming no weapons allowed)
Wince away; it's the facts. NHB matches are nothing - absolutely nothing - when it comes to violence, OK? Pepole look at the UFC and shiver at how horrible and brutal it is yadda yuadda; not stopping for a moment to consider that most of the hype about its violence comes from the UFC's own press office.
Comparing NHB to what real violence is all about is like comparing a go-kart track to Spa Belgium.
'No Holds Barred' means exctly that - no holds barred. It doesn't mean 'no rules'. There are a lot of rules; both written and unwritten; and that's ignoring the law - it has a strong effect as well.
In fact; the Law is the single biggest factor here; NHB fighters must stay within a particular range of force. If they do not; they can be prosecuted for assault, attempted murder, etc just like anyone else.
That's why you don't see anyone bring a handgun to an NHB match. Or a knife. Or get 10 of his buddies to hold the opponent down while he stomps his head.
Forget about NHB - it's just another competition. Those 'fighters' have no more advantage than anyone else when encountering real-life violence. A street-fight; maybe - if said streetfight took place on the street between two people only. But that's one type of real-life violence only; and the easiest to survive - and I must point out that if it's a 'street fight'; it's only occurring because both parties agree to fight - this is not a defensive situation.
Real violence is a different matter entirely. It is outside the range in which NHB competitors practice; their attitude and match experience gives them no advantage when encountering it.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-03-2004, 02:56 AM   #14
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

DaveO, while I'm willing to accept your self-professed experience in all things street/violent, could you please do me the service of reading what I'm actually arguing about prior to ranting? For example, my caveat concerning the use of weapons I believe answers a lot of your post doesn't it?

IanD's comment stated that aikido training was more geared to the ultra-violent arena of the street rather than the more gentrified (sic) arena that is NHB. Taking things to their (il)logical limit - for this to be true, we would all be having to practice our "lethal techniques" at full speed in the dojo because unless we have actually used them in a true-to-life situation how do we know they actually work under those situations.

Quote:
Real violence is a different matter entirely. It is outside the range in which NHB competitors practice; their attitude and match experience gives them no advantage when encountering it
I would happily argue that the NHB "sport" fighting where you are matching yourself against a well-trained athlete who wishes to destroy you (even if it is within a given set of rules, which can be surprisingly broad) would indeed given them some advantage over a standard ma practitioner. I'd also happily include boxers, full-contact strikers and judoka in with this.

To imply that experiencing being hit/grappled by a non-compliant practice partner provides no real benefits to learning self-defense I find mildly ludicrous to say the least.
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:05 AM   #15
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
Forget about NHB - it's just another competition. Those 'fighters' have no more advantage than anyone else when encountering real-life violence.
I wouldn't have expected you to assert such given your past posts.

I disagree. A well-conditioned athlete with experience in physical struggle, fear, adrenaline dumps and hand to hand combat seems to me like they that would have a fair advantage over the typical US citizen (overweight, untrained and not physically fit).


Regards,

Paul
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:24 AM   #16
Jorx
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Paul, I so share your viewpoint...

Anyhow... when a technique does not work even in UFC then exactly HOW can you know that it works in even "tougher" situations?

2 most popular NHB events UFC in USA and Pride in Japan have different sets of rules. Yet you see some fighters crossing over from here to there or vice versa with no or little specific training and adapt very well to the new set of rules.

I bet they would adapt to the phyiscal confrontation in street the ruleset of "no rules" as well.

The everlasting street vs. sport discussion...
http://www.straightblastgym.com/page...Press&session=

Read and think about this...
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:36 AM   #17
DaveO
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

OK....you thought that was a rant? It wasn't - it was merely a response which you have seemed to take exception to.
Well; since you've decided to be snippy; no problem, let's be snippy.
Quote:
"could you please do me the service of reading what I'm actually arguing about prior to ranting? For example, my caveat concerning the use of weapons I believe answers a lot of your post doesn't it?
Believe me; I read all points of an argument very carefully. It's not that I didnt read the post; it's that that particular point was so incomplete and off the mark as to be silly. The point was: (Caveat: no weapons allowed).
Well; there's a pithy; thought provoking line! Certainly one worth defending a la your response.
Do you honestly think that weapons are the only separation between NHB and real-life violence? Apparently so:
Quote:
I always wince when I see this type of sport vs street idea postulated as though the street is a different land - NHB matches are one of the most realistic testing arenas for any technique, whatever it's antecedents.
Are you arguing that real-life violence is not different from NHB? If so; you're being painfully naiive. Weapons - which you apparently thought was the difference - aren't even the starting point; they're simply one aspect - a major one; but still one aspect - of the differences between organized sport and violence.
NHB competition is in the strictest sense not a fight. It is a duel. That is; it is a ritualized fight accepted by both parties; with rules agreed upon by them prior to the start and in a carefully-controlled environment. Both parties have plenty of opportunity not to fight if they so desire; and indeed may stop the contest at any time.

Does this in any way sound like real-life violence? I guess it does:
Quote:
I'd be more inclined to say that if it isn't used in this type of arena, it probably isn't that useful a technique for self defense when your attacker also has a clue about self defense.
So; if it isn't used in the Octagon it won't work in real life, eh? That might be true...if an NHB contest was in any way related to real-life violence.

See; we're dealing with a couple of separate issues that you're jumbling up here, and that's where you're running into trouble. The first is the focus of the engagement. A real-life violent situation occurs when an attacker attacks a potential victim. That sounds simple and it is; one person is clearly an attacker; one is clearly a defender. Not so in competition; in NHB the two fighters are facing each other equally. Both are initially the attacker; which one remains the attacker depends entirely upon which takes the initiative. In other words it is not a defense situation. Why then do you imagine defensive tactics/movements would apply under those circumstances? Far from being realistic in regards to real-life violence; (hereafter called RLV; since I'm using it a lot) NHB tactics are on a completely different plane. They work; and work very well; that's why they're used. But they work for NHB competition, not RLV. Quite the opposite from being effective SD techniques; they're often counterproductive and can get you into a lot of trouble if you attempted to use them in a RLV situation.
The next thing you've totally missed is the intent of both parties. In an NHB environment; there is one intent: to win the match. That can occur depending on circumstances in several ways: by knockout, by TKO. Also by the opponent tapping out. Often; it could be by forcing him out of the fight area.
Yep - sounds like RLV to me.....
In RLV; there's no such thing as tapping out, forceout or TKO. The intent is totally different; for both parties. For the attacker; his goal is not to win; because he doesn't want to fight you. He wants to beat you; as fast and effectively as possible; so that you cannot muster a defense. Is that a big difference? It is - it's the critical difference. Because it means he's not going to be starting out 10 feet in front of you with a bow to start. It means he's going to stack the deck as far as possible in his favour before starting. It means he's going to cheat. He'll blindside you or he'll back up on you. His intent is ambush; not fair fighting. Remember this: he will not attack unless he's already sure of the outcome.
The defender's intent, however, is different. His intent is to win, right? After all; losing can have some pretty terrible concequences.
NHB training can, in fact, be detrimental to good SD practice for this specific reason - the one I just mentioned: 'The defender must win'. In the vast majority of cases; people that think along those lines are the ones that wind up lying face-down in pools of blood because they ignored one simple rulle about RLV: You can't win a defensive situation. I don't care who you are; you can't win. First; as described above the attacker will already have done everythin in his ability to insure he's going to suceed in his attack. Second; in the unlikely event you manage to 'beat' him; guess what - it ain't over. What's he gonna do - run away, think 'oh darn; he was to good for me' and reflect on his life and wind up going to church?
No way - he's going to go get a weapon, get his buddies, set up and wait for you.
(Which is why if you're in a bar fight; don't think you've 'won'. Pay your tab and get the hell out of there - now. Get gone before they can reorganize; if you're still there 5 minutes after the incident you've strayed too long.)
I don't give a damn about winning; that's why I'm still alive. In order to survive; an effective defender cannot think about winning; his focus must be escape. That's it - to get into a breakaway position and get the hell out of there.

The differences between NHB and RLV can be demonstrated in one clear fact: The number of times groundfighting comes into play in the Octagon. Frequently; fighters wind up going to the ground. Do I need to discuss what'll happen if you try that in real life?

In the bottom line; NHB competition is just another type of sporting event. It cannot train people for RLV any more than straight aikido training can.
If one is to learn effective defensive techniques; one must learn defense.

Lastly; this line:
Quote:
while I'm willing to accept your self-professed experience in all things street/violent,
You know something? 'Self-professed' is exactly right. Do I want you to accept my word? No - who am I but just another poster? You have no way of knowing whether I speak from a position of knowledge or experience.
What I want you to do is to look up and study the matter for yourself; and get your information from separate, impartial sources. Hopefully this post has provided enough questions and concerns to enable you to do that; but I doubt it.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:30 AM   #18
happysod
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Interesting response DaveO, believe me this wasn't me being "snippy", it was merely my response to being so enthusiastically lectured. But you're right, "rant" was probably too harsh a word and unecessary, so for that I apologise.

However, just to recap things
1. I was specifically comparing NHB competition to aikido training via IanD's remark regarding aikido training and the the street

2. The caveat concerning weapons was just that, a brief caveat as my argument was with standard ma training vs training for NHB or any other full contact sport activity. You're right, I wasn't taking into account the ability to deliberately extrapolate a single sentence to an incredibly illogical degree.

"Do you honestly think that weapons are the only separation between NHB and real-life violence" - nothing like starting with an argument that I haven't actually made. If you wanted my opinion on NHB vs the str33t I'm more than happy to oblige, you only need to ask nicely..[and if anyone objects to the tangent this is taking, please post so I'll stop going off topic]

NHB/full contact sports vs street - no they're not fully compatible. However, I do think that in terms of preparing you for self-defense they are superior to many other forms of ma training as they
a) emphasise getting fit and strong (always useful for that battle with ninjas)
b) desensitize you to being hit/hitting others at full force
c) emphasise techniques that are simple and can be applied while under pressure
d) actually provide at least an approximation of "flight or fight" pressure through their use of competition

Finally, a-c are still practiced in a relatively safe manner. What they fail to deliver (which any credible sports instructor will also tell you) is they do not take into account training situational awareness, how to improvise weapons etc. etc.

However, these points that the sports ma are missing from their curriculem are normally not included in traditional martial arts either so both suffer from the same lack. Yes, if you wish to learn any type of martial art purely for self-defense, you should also get training in basic self-defense tactics I have no quibble with you there.

The most common complaint against "sport" martial arts is their lack of dirty tricks "cos of the rules" - do you really think that the average gracie boy would not know at least some of the dirty tricks that the rest of us learn? Just because they're not used in competition does not mean a sports club doesn't practice them, I doubt we ever see anyone's full repertoire of techniques thanks to point (c) - interestingly enough, KISS is also a point normally emphasised by self-defense experts (even the infamous RBSD knights)

However, I suggest you also look at some of the threads discussing training aikido purely for self-defense. Strangely enough, the aikido postulated begins to more resemble the sort of training used for the NHB sports than that which is normally associated with a traditional aikido dojo
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:45 AM   #19
Jorx
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

I hear that way too often...
SD differs from sport situation because in the first there is the attacker and the defender, in 2nd both want to win.

Guess what... in this SD situation when the attacker succeeds with his first ambush then there is no defence anymore. Bang. It's over. IF he fails then it in fact will become a situation where both parties have opposite goals. A situation more like to the sport / NHB sparring situation than to the safe and sound predetermined attacker-defender drills in "Self-Defence classes"

Just my opinion...
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Old 09-03-2004, 07:31 AM   #20
Dazzler
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
This is not meant to be a philosophical discussion of the intent behind aikido. Besides atemi, has anyone ever seen an effective application of an aikido technique in a MMA NHB bout? Just curious.
If you look at aikido 'techniques' as tools rather than fixed forms they can develop a sensitivity to ukes movement, feints can be used to draw a response from uke to be used against him, the ability to centre oneself and develop a grounded platform to work from all exist.

Looking at the highly skilled art of groundwork employed in NHB you can see a sensitivity to opponents smallest movement develop, feints are used to draw a response which can be used against the opponent, basing ones weight on a pinned opponent or centering is vital as is developing a grounded platform to work from.

All very similar skills although worked on generally in differing planes.

Aikido techniques are not fixed, we use fairly standard exercises against usually compliant partners to develop as martial artists but outside of the dojo you will rarely see a perfect ikkyo nikkyo sankkyo against a non-perfect uke.

To answer the question in short form...variations of tenchi nage, koshi nage and kokyu ho nage have all been used ...it seems 50% of NHB events conclude with an arm bar...I'll call that a hijikimeosae variant too.

I'm more interested in why the question is asked in the first place ....I hope not leading into which is best...

Cheers


D
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Old 09-03-2004, 07:44 AM   #21
Jorx
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Umm... Dazzler, but why then train in a way most Aikidoka train?

How many are here that have learned the basic armbar in basic Aikido class?
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Old 09-03-2004, 08:15 AM   #22
Dazzler
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Not many in mine I'll grant you.

Although most of the thinkers would question whether it would be sensible to engage in such floorwork in a non-controlled environment.

Few of the bad boys (and girls) here have the guts to work on a one to one basis so I'd always be concerned to commit myself in this manner.

But conversion from hijikimeosae ...failed nikkyo resulting in a straight arm rather than bent is a pretty straightforward affair and takes no time at all to make the adaptation.

In answer to your first question most aikoka train (i hope) to develop the following;

position in relation to opponent...are you safe?
posture.................................... is it weak , can you be countered?
correct breathing...................... breathe in to receive, breath out to attack
Correct distance......................use appropriate technique at the approprate range
blending..................................move as your partner moves , not too early , not to late
awareness...............................recognise danger
Turning and body movement.......to develop evasive movement

Thats about it except of course the most important things which are irimi and attemi....entering and striking. This is the essential core of aikido.

umm Jorge...why would anyone train in anything else?
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Old 09-03-2004, 09:20 AM   #23
Jorx
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

It has just been my notsorecent observation that all the things you state... the people who do not learn these things, the people who try to learn to fight ( and who fight ) will develop ALL these things way quicker than those "learning" them.
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Old 09-03-2004, 09:24 AM   #24
happysod
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United Kingdom
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Jorgen, don't fully agree with you - some people who try the short route of learning to fight only ever seem to develop a more advanced way of stopping fists with their heads. Also, the mindset/job of the student must be taken into account, some people cannot bring themselves to jump in at the deep end in that way.
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Old 09-03-2004, 09:32 AM   #25
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
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England
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Re: No Holds Barred and Aikido

Those that survive probably will Jorge.

Good luck to them.

All I am saying is that those things can be learned from aikido. For me this is my preferred choice now, I am grateful for my Vale Tude experiences but find my body trains longer in aikido.

If you prefer the shorter route thats fine but beware there are others there also in a hurry - they may not see you in the rush.

With respect I'm enjoying the journey and not too focussed on the destination.

D
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