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Old 08-27-2004, 08:48 AM   #1
kocakb
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Unhappy jeet kun do

Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:43 AM   #2
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: jeet kun do

It seems that newbies to aikido are always challenged in some way shape or form. Whether it is because they enjoy their are so much that they talk about it a lot and invariably someone feels it necessary to challenge your enthusiasim or maybe just because they are new to the art and folks of greater experience in another style feel a need to prove their art is superior, I can't say.

I have no doubt in the long run that you will be able to handle stituations like this. Although there are a few things you can do I am not going to go into that here. What I am going to suggest is that you bring your friend to aikido class.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:52 AM   #3
AsimHanif
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Re: jeet kun do

Bulent,
if your "friend" is getting his kicks by showing how dominant he supposedly is, he really isn't that good. And I might add, it's not just JKDoers. Anyone can be arrogant including aikidoists. If your "friend" was really training WITH you, he would first slow down and show you how to defend his techniques. That way you both would get better. Sounds to me like he is only interested in massaging his ego.
I am also a boxing trainer and I had a boxer who would beat up all his sparring partners. Because of that, the sparring partners didn't come back to the gym and he had no one to train WITH when he had a big fight coming up. He ended up losing that fight. After the fight, I said to him, "you chased away all your sparring partners, how come you didn't beat up that guy?" He had no answer.
Find someone else to train with.
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:02 AM   #4
stern9631
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Re: jeet kun do

I can understand. How does aikido deal with multiple attacks? ex: a punch followed up with a round kick

We may react with irimi nage and get caught with a round kick. What do you do?
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:04 AM   #5
kocakb
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Re: jeet kun do

Dear Lyle;
may you are right, we do talk too much - or people make us to talk too much...I have taken him to our class and he watched our training 1,5 hours long. I asked him to join to a lesson, but he refused. After our training class, he just said "why should a guy grap your hand ? you (aikidokas) see everything very simple. The fact is not like this, you do..."...He is "not" an arrogant person and is not talking in bad manner, he does not try to harm me while training together. Just a fan of Bruce Lee...

and Jon, irimi nage is really the most effective technique I guess. But he attacks very fast and you know If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful. But thank all of you for replying...

Last edited by kocakb : 08-27-2004 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:17 AM   #6
John Boswell
 
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Re: jeet kun do

You say he is not arrogant and not talking in a bad manner, yet how can he judge aikido after watching half of one class?

He has no understanding why we train the way we do.
He has no real experience with someone that has trained in aikido for as long as he has JKD.
He passes judgement and forms an opinion on aikido based on his experience with you, hits you (even if it is a light hit) and you know that isn't a fair opinion of aikido... so why do you defend him?

If he's right, why do you trian in aikido?

The answer is not to carry rocks or do anything crazy or silly to get "better." Continue to TRAIN to get better. Work on your own skill... not against his.

If you do continue to "train" with this friend of yours, look for openings in his attacks. You say he's punching continuously? Is he in a horse stance? Kick him in the jewels! When he blocks that, take that arm and continue the circle and throw him in kaiten nage! Look for openings... but the best opening this guy has is the door leading away from him. He is arrogant. Don't kid yourself.

That's my opinion. Good luck with whatever you choose.

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Old 08-27-2004, 10:39 AM   #7
Jordan Steele
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Re: jeet kun do

I practiced Wing Chun before Aikido so I know what a pain in he ass it can be to scrap with somebody that continuously attacks and protects their centreline so effectively that it is impossible to get around to their back. Understand that in order to effectively apply any technique on a skilled striker they will need to be distracted or "hit" before you can attempt a lock or throw. Also if you want to beat him, get him on the ground and grapple. Unless he has other training, you stand the better chance on the ground.
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Old 08-27-2004, 01:32 PM   #8
shihonage
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Re: jeet kun do

You shouldn't try to control his strikes - control his mind instead.
Don't let your perception of Aikido "SHOULD BE LIKE" make your movements wooden and limited.

Do Bülent Koçak-do, not Aiki-do.
In the process you will eventually manifest "some" principles you internalized from Aikido, but Aikido is about sponteneous, creative, NATURAL adaptation.
Your body and mind are capable of doing a lot more than static Aikido practice.
Stop forcing Aikido techniques where they do not belong in their pristine form, shift back to the very basics.
Fool him, control his mind, throw a couple of punches, a low kick, enter quickly, don't let him have a moment where he isn't confused, deliver atemi in the whatever openings you see.
Grab his clothes, lower your head over your elbows, jerk him off-balance continuously when he tries to strike, disturb his mind, then let go with one of your hands and punch him in the jaw, then enter with whatever throw is doable - the amount of things you can try is ... considerable.

Last edited by shihonage : 08-27-2004 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:05 PM   #9
Infamousapa
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Re: jeet kun do

Well Aikido is different than other arts and you have to understand this.What you are doing is sparring with your partner..THIS WILL NOT WORK ..in Aikido.It is different if your practicing a technique with your partner but to spar is all wrong..In a real situation you would have to be calm and ready to harmonize,Do your way with words towards your assailant and try to cut on the first attack.Different situations ask for different terms.If i sparred with my friends they know i do aikido and it is going to be friendly sparring my aikido will be weak and probably not work..However if its a aggressive foe im up against i would stay calm and push him verbally,mentally and physically to attack me,Therefore I am still calm and he has lost because he aggressed then i will be able to see thru him and his attack..Hence aikido is a spiritual and physical art..
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Old 08-27-2004, 05:51 PM   #10
senseimike
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Unless you are willing to injure your friend to make your point, let him believe that aikido is ineffective. I have been in simular situations, where you are trying to demonstrate technique and your "friend" resists with all of his might or throws another strike in the mix. While I know that the situation is being shown at about half speed, with less intent my "friend" might not realize this and mistake compation for weakness. I always just say, " You must be right... it doesn't work.", even though we both know better.

Mike Taylor
Godan
Chief Instructor, Rising Star Aikido
South Bend, Nebraska, USA
www.risingstaraikido.com
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Old 08-27-2004, 08:08 PM   #11
SeiserL
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Greetings,

I come from a FMA/JKD background (ask your friend about the late Ted Lucaylucay, trained with Bruce and Danny).

Yes, JKD is fast and attacks by combination. Yet even in our early training we slow down in order to help be good training partners. I would agree that most people in Aikido do not know how to handle JKD attacks. Very few system do.

Please remember that Aikido is a "do", a way and not a "jutsu" a combative fighting system.

Let your friend have his ego victory and get back to training.

BTW, we have, on occasion, worked the various Aikido waza off the flow. Worked great

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:34 PM   #12
NagaBaba
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Very good post Aleksey!!!!!
kocakb read it carefully many times.

And then go practice with your friend as often as it is possible. You have probaly unique opportunity(because your friend is attacking you in friendly manner) to develop spontanouse movements(takemusu aiki) long before all your friends from a dojo. This way is hard, you ego will be broken, you will feel humiliated, but keep going, doesn't matter. Just pray your friend will have still fun, to support his interest buy him few beers

After the while(that depends of your own capacity) you will learn how to create situation more confortable for you(again read Aleksey post). don't forget : aikido is dynamique, not static. Use vertical and horizontal dimension, always turn your hips last moment befor impact, and ALWAYS enter irimi. never go back. Crush his center physicaly, with weight of your body and impact of irimi. enter with no mercy into his first attack, so he won't be able to deliver next one.

and most important: work hard on your BODY LANGUAGE. He is reading you as a open book. Hide your intentions until he will not be able to change direction of his attack.

I know it is much more easy to write then to actually do. But I went the same way as you, and believe me, it is posiible. Not every time(yet!!!!) but happens more and more often

Nagababa

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Old 08-27-2004, 09:37 PM   #13
Devon Natario
 
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Re: jeet kun do

To me, each art has a set of rules. You can defend yourself with Aikido. You just cant spar or box someone and think youll have mor4e skill than them.

Ive said it before, in Jujitsu class I have grappled with a 3rd Dan in Isshin Ryu and a Shodan in Aikido and I beat them both very easily (This was when I was an orange belt).

I obviously understood that if they took me to their comfortability, I wouldnt stand as much of a chance.

Anyways- the point is, this guy is going to be good at strikes, and youre not unless youve trained in another art. To me, this is why Cross training is very important because I dont like to lack in anything.

Devon Natario
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Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:40 PM   #14
xuzen
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)…

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back
Dear Bulent,

Just admit that he is a better MArtist. He has done 6 yrs of JKD, a black belter. You are in the kyu stage, you have plenty to learn, but hang in there, one day you will be able to stand on your own. Give him his credit where it is due. However if the JKD practitioner criticised the art as a whole, then maybe he needs to spar with an equivalent experienced aikidoka. Or better yet, have him play around with the Senshusei boys at the Yoshinkan Hombu dojo in Tokyo (I understand that is where the Tokyo Metro police train once a upon a time).

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-28-2004, 06:55 PM   #15
dan guthrie
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Re: jeet kun do

Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.
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Old 08-28-2004, 07:02 PM   #16
Chris Birke
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Re: jeet kun do

"JKD breaks bones on purpose."

Ahh, its good to see ignorance is still alive and well. Where did you get these ideas about JKD?
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Old 08-29-2004, 01:32 AM   #17
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.
It's really better for the reputation of Aikido, not to mention your own, to refrain from making statements like this. It's embarrassing.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 08-29-2004, 07:24 AM   #18
villrg0a
 
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Re: jeet kun do

jeet-kune-do (the way of the intercepting fist)

before i learned the art a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick
when i was studying the art, a punch was no longer just punch, and a kick to longer just a kick
now that i know the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick.

bruce lee
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Old 08-29-2004, 10:19 AM   #19
Tharis
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.
IMHO....

I've a friend who studies JKD and makes it really clear that they use stages of escalation, which may include bone-breaks, but not necessarily. I see your point about aikido, and agree with you that it's better at de-escalating conflict, but I don't think it's wise to start knocking other arts in the process.

Regarding the original point, and my friend, he seems to agree with the referred JKD that Aikido isn't a very "practical" art to study, in terms of pure self-defense. He still trains in aikido, I think, because he enjoys it and thinks that it teaches things that he could learn from it (this of course being my interpretation, and thus possibly suspect). I think we disagree somewhat on this point, but it's not a big deal. He's great guy to train with and I think I've learned a lot looking at his style/approach to MA.

So, let skeptics be skeptics and focus on what you can learn from them and what they can learn from you, basically taking what you can use from their style and making it your own. I think this is actually one of the tenets of JKD (please correct me if I'm mistaken, anyone who knows better). It's a good principle.

Last edited by Tharis : 08-29-2004 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 08-29-2004, 02:57 PM   #20
dan guthrie
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Re: jeet kun do

I mangled my own point. I know almost nothing of JKD. I will try to learn more before I speak on this again.
The event I described happened to a friend of mine and really impressed me. I was trying to give the original poster an alternative argument to "which art is better."
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Old 08-29-2004, 03:39 PM   #21
dan guthrie
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Re: jeet kun do

It's odd how often my good intentions end up tasting like my own feet.
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Old 08-29-2004, 05:16 PM   #22
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Please remember that Aikido is a "do", a way and not a "jutsu" a combative fighting system.
Aikido is a way but it is still a martial art.

Quote:
If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful.
This is a very good point. Mike mentioned this as well. How important is it to make your friend understand that your style is an effective system. It isn't as important as the relationship that could be fractured.

Your friend isn't even willing to try out a class. I would have to agree with John that your friend is arrogant, at least to a small degree. Otherwise I don't beleive he would act the way he does.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 08-31-2004, 10:57 PM   #23
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back )…

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent
Hello, Bulent ...

You might want to tell your friend about Sifu Kevin Seaman and Sifu Andrew Astle. I've studied LaCoste Inosanto Kali under them since 1997; they also both hold instructorships in Jun Fan/JKD. (Sifu Andy also received permission from Maha Guru Victor de Thouars to teach the basic elements of Pentjak Silat Serak, and that's where that comes from.)

When I told Sifu Andy I was thinking of adding Aikido to my training regime, did he lecture me on doing something so "ineffective"? No. If anything, he supported and encouraged it. "Go for it!" he said, sounding like he was grinning from ear to ear (we were speaking on the phone at the time). "You'll be a better martial artist." I sometimes think that if he'd been free at the time, he's have shoved me in the dojo door! (I was the reluctant one -- I worried I would be extra pooped at the end of the week.) Sifu Kevin also seemed to approve of the idea when I told him.

Furthermore, right in Sfu Kevin's academy was a sign with principles he wanted his students to adhere to. One of them was, IIRC, I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer. Sifu Dan Inosanto, from whom Kevin and Andy received their instructorships, is also known for saying, "No one art has all the answers, every art has something to offer, study many things and find what's right for you."

I don't know your friend, and I don't know how he came by his JKD. But if it's from an affiliate of the Inosanto Academy, I would be pretty disappointed in him and/or his sifu. May not be my place to say something like that, but if the people I know personally are anything to go by, your friend may not be typical of Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD people.

And the next time your friend refuses to join and Aikdo class, remind him of something else Sifu Kevin had on his academy's wall: "A closed mind is a wonderful thing to lose."
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Old 08-31-2004, 11:46 PM   #24
kocakb
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Re: jeet kun do

many thanks to all of you, there are really a lot of things to learn.
Let's train...
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Old 09-01-2004, 02:14 AM   #25
Michael Meister
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Re: jeet kun do

I don't know anything about JKD, but I do know those kinds of discussion. I had a very similar one with someone doing something (i forgot the name of the art) which is basically a mixture of everything. His point was, that every martial art would be ineffective in a real fight (except that weird mixture his training in), but what I still don't understand is, why I should let people damage my nose (or worse) over and over again, just to avoid the once in a lifetime a might get in a situation, were I could be hurt in a fight.

On the other hand, I do have a friend doing TKD. It's always fun, discussing MA during lunchtime (I just don't know, why people start avoiding us when we do ), comparing strategies and techniques. The important point is, both of us know that there are limits to everything, to what your MA can do, and more important to what you can do. In my opinion, understanding those limits is an important point within MA.

BTW a few months ago, we had a training session, during which the TKDokas showed us some of their techniques, an we some of ours. I don't remember much of what they showed us, but what I do remember is the experience of actually hitting my partner. Something that I feel is lacking in my Ukemi (not the actual hit, but more the strike that is committed to hit).

Ok, it may be a little bit off topic, but it came to my mind, when I read this thread, so I think it's ok to post here.
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